TO Help

[Most Wanted]

This came up in another thread and I would like a little clarification . If a shooter sets down his open SG with a hull in it on a table and moves to another position to fire the next gun and TO pulls hull shooter still receives their MSV as I read it in WTC, part 2 post #14 . If that same shooter places his open and empty SG on table and it falls on his way to fire the next gun and the TO catches it , that would be a no call ?

This is the answer I received on the last thread and I didn't understand the reasoning . As a TO if I could I would catch the gun to avoid any damage to said gun but once the gun fell it earned the MSV . I don't understand how catching it erases the fact that it fell . If this is one of those gentleman agreements and not in the books that's fine . I have never had to make this call and if I do I want to be able to reference this thread . Thanks

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

A starting to fall gun is not a safety issue...but a falling gun is...stop it from BECOMING a safety issue.

 

That said...one TO may stop the gun from falling and another won't.

 

Moral of the story?

 

Pick your posse TO's wisely.

 

Phantom

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

As I expressed in the other thread, I don't agree with giving the shooter an MSV when someone removes the possibility of the shooter preventing a penalty on their own. Hopefully, future rule changes will fix that.

 

I also believe that an OPEN and EMPTY long gun that falls is not a safety issue. How could it be? It's EMPTY. Also, at the point the TO is looking at and catching said gun, the shooter is no longer being watched, as he should be, by the TO. Now this opens the door for the shooter to perform an unsafe act as the TO is no longer in the position to safely assist the shooter through the stage.

 

Fillmore

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

I have done that, and the shooter went on the win the first BW at EOT!

 

he din't know it until others on the posse told him...

 

it was reflex and I was anticipating his moves...... I would love to have had it on vid!!

 

yes, choose your TO wisely, if possible!

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

I think the rule interpretations of recent threads are getting downright silly. With these kind of inputs I forsee many ROs just ignoring them. Since most TOs never read the wire most will never see them anyway.

[Blastmaster]

A gun falling has to start the process someplace and end someplace.

 

So a falling gun is an unsafe act, by SASS definition, and thus a penalty. The penalty is earned when the firearm hits the ground, not on the top of the boot or half way down or??? but when it hits the ground... (W/o breaking the 170 rule)

 

So when the TO prevents (interfers) the gun from falling, by touching it, it is the same as plucking hulls/cases out of long guns and or opening the lever of a rifle for the shooter. Plucking hulls has already been hashed out and deemed to be BAD TOing.

 

What am I missing?

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

A gun falling has to start the process someplace and end someplace.

 

So a falling gun is an unsafe act, by SASS definition, and thus a penalty. The penalty is earned when the firearm hits the ground, not on the top of the boot or half way down or??? but when it hits the ground... (W/o breaking the 170 rule)

 

So when the TO prevents (interfers) the gun from falling, by touching it, it is the same as plucking hulls/cases out of long guns and or opening the lever of a rifle for the shooter. Plucking hulls has already been hashed out and deemed to be BAD TOing.

 

What am I missing?

The assumption that the falling Long Gun was due only to the shooters negligence. An assumption that negates the possibility that there was a prop or other element that caused it to fall.

[Blastmaster]

The assumption that the falling Long Gun was due only to the shooters negligence. An assumption that negates the possibility that there was a prop or other element that caused it to fall.

 

If the prop fails, such as the staging table leg collapse and the staged gun falls, then it is a prop failure and if just so happens the TO is there and grabs the gun, then fine. Highly unlikely all those stars would be aligned but could happen.

 

If the shooter in his haste to move on, discarded his gun without looking or taking care and the gun slithers off the prop, or bounces off, or ??? then it is still on him.

 

Can you provide other examples beside prop failure where it would be OK for TO to interfere/make safe the shooters firearm? Thus, to make the statement, pick your TO wisely?

[Goody, SASS #26190]

There is no penalty for a falling gun. There is a penalty for a gun that falls and hits the floor, provided it was due to shooter haste or negligence. If a TO physically stops a shooter from breaking the 170, would you assign a penalty? Some people should never have the timer and be in charge of a stage if they can't recall the main objective of that position.

 

RANGE OFFICERS

The purpose of trained club Range Officers is to provide the sport of Cowboy Action Shooting™

with competent, firm, and fair officials in all levels of competition and allow Range Officers to

perform any duty on the posse.

The main objective of the Chief Range Officer is to assist the competitor safely through a course

of fire and be an authority in all areas of gun safety, any time, any place.

Range Officer’s Motto: THE PURPOSE OF THE RANGE OFFICER IS TO SAFELY

ASSIST THE SHOOTER THROUGH THE COURSE OF FIRE.

The two words in this statement paramount to why a Range Officer is even necessary on the

firing line are assist and safely. Let’s look at these two words separately and how they affect

one’s actions and attitudes.

ASSIST

As a Range Officer, you are there to assist the shooter. You will notice the word “penalize”

doesn’t appear anywhere, but the word “assist” does. This is not to say you won’t be called upon

to assess penalties when they are appropriate, but it is NOT your first priority. You are there to

prevent safety violations before they occur.

[Curly Red Ryder]

And who is penalized if during the TO catching the falling gun, the muzzle breaks the 170°, this violation being due to the TO act? the TO or the shooter?

[Lunger]

A few yrs ago, I plunked my 97 down in a hurry and ran left to pistol position firing away. The 97 was balancing for awhile, then rocked back flat on the table. The ro prevented anyone from saving my sg, and stood over it while I was firing away at the final position. He finally saw it wouldn't fall, and ran to me barely able to catch my last pistol shot. He could've gave the sg a quick bump further on the table and stayed with me for the entire stage. Then talk to me about what happened. I do this when I run the clock. I won't watch a gun fall that could've easily been saved.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

As I expressed in the other thread, I don't agree with giving the shooter an MSV when someone removes the possibility of the shooter preventing a penalty on their own. Hopefully, future rule changes will fix that.

 

I also believe that an OPEN and EMPTY long gun that falls is not a safety issue. How could it be? It's EMPTY. Also, at the point the TO is looking at and catching said gun, the shooter is no longer being watched, as he should be, by the TO. Now this opens the door for the shooter to perform an unsafe act as the TO is no longer in the position to safely assist the shooter through the stage.

 

Fillmore

 

We MUST assume a gun is loaded until it is proven to be clear at the unloading table. Even then, would you let someone point it at you and pull the trigger? Of course not, because it's unsafe.

 

That said, I totally with Goody.

[Oklahoma Dee]

GOODY! Thanks....great post.

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

I'm with Goody too, and have to admit that I'll never let somebody's $2000 engraved '73 (or whatever) drop onto the rocks if I can prevent it. If you want to complain to me that I prevented the shooter from getting a penalty they MIGHT have gotten have at it.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Goody put it pretty well.

 

If you can keep it from happening. You do.

If it has already happened. You call it.

[Blastmaster]

Falling gun is not a safety penalty until it hits the ground/floor.

 

A hull left in chamber/action isn't a safety penalty until next firearm is used.

 

A restaged cocked unloaded gun isn't a safety penalty until next firearm is used.

 

A firearm not restaged horizontally & pointed into the berm with downrange movement isn't unsafe, until shooters move down range.

 

A firearm that breaks the 170 rule is an unsafe act.. Really unsafe if the barrel is near horizontal, at which time, the TO should physically block if they can,, but penalty has been earned.

 

None of these warrants TO physcial correcting the situation w/o penalty being given.

 

A potential squib in the barrel and another shot is being chambered, should be TO verbal command to stop,,, up to the point of interferring for extremely slow newbies.

 

TO safely assist shooter by his observation, being attentive of what is happening, of a potential unsafe condition and verbal coaching the shooter to either come back and make the situation safe, or,,, if extremely unsafe (sweeping with horizontal barrel or a squib) by physical contact.

 

 

I don't believe it is right for a Shooter/Buddy system to exist.. Shooter shoots, hastily restages firearms and TO follows making stuff neat, tighty and safe by physically moving stuff.

 

At least that is my view from the saddle.

[Most Wanted]

This was brought up so let me make this clear.

The gun fell off of the prop due to shooter negligence.

Goody the rule says " falls off of prop ". It says nothing about where it stops only about whether it breaks the 170. By your extra wording a gun could fall off the prop and land on a hay bale and be no call. If the TO catches it , it has fallen off the prop. If a TO stops someone from breaking the 170 then No rule has been broken.

Let me repeat I would catch the gun but don't understand how a gun that needs to be caught is still on the prop. If I caught a dropped sg round and gave it to the shooter does that mean it never fell. Like I said in my opening post if this is a long standing agreement and no rule covers this that's fine. Would just like to have an ROC ruling so I can save it with my WTCs. Thanks for all your replies.

[Most Wanted]

Let me also add I'm not talking about a gun that is on the edge of falling and we all as TOs have pushed it onto the prop a little further just to be sure. Thanks

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

basically that's the way it is!!! those of you who disagree get it on the agenda....

 

I will save a gun from falling every time if I can..... so, I'll time for you, but if you won't help a shooter in this instance, please hand of the timer when I'm shooting,,,

 

btw...I would have no heartburn if the rule was changed, or clarified differently

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Call me wrong but an empty gun falling is a SDQ, not a MSV.

Ike

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

Call me wrong but an empty gun falling is a SDQ, not a MSV.

Ike

An empty long gun that falls and doesn't break the 170 is a MSV.

 

Fillmore

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

 

We MUST assume a gun is loaded until it is proven to be clear at the unloading table. Even then, would you let someone point it at you and pull the trigger? Of course not, because it's unsafe.

 

That said, I totally with Goody.

Yes, we ALL know that but we are having a discussion. For the sake of discussion, the OP said the gun was open AND empty. That's the hypothetical situation I was discussing.

 

As far as PROVING the gun is clear at the unloading table, If the gun has been PROVEN to be empty, why is it a penalty if someone sweeps someone with a gun that has been PROVEN to be empty?

 

Fillmore

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

From P. 18 of the ROI, " An open, empty long gun that slips and falls after being set down and does not break the 170° safety rule or sweep anyone will result in either a “Prop Failure” call or a 10-second Minor Safety Violation, depending upon the circumstance."

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

And who is penalized if during the TO catching the falling gun, the muzzle breaks the 170°, this violation being due to the TO act? the TO or the shooter?

The TO gets the penalty. That's why I always try to have a prop for the shooter to table a gun when there's a malfunction. I no longer want the shooter to hand off a gun to me. If the shooter tries to hand off a squibbed pistol to me, something that was very common in the "old days", I advise the shooter to "table it". I don't want a SDQ if I accidently drop said gun, which would be the appropriate call under the current rules.

 

Fillmore

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

I guess I'm part of the problem. I'll save a falling gun every time I can. I'll even remind shooters where they left off if they get confused.Sorry to disappoint the folks hoping their fellow competitors get P or safety called.

 

CR

[Noz]

It's threads like this that make me very reluctant to take the timer and function as an RO.

[Most Wanted]

I guess I'm part of the problem. I'll save a falling gun every time I can. I'll even remind shooters where they left off if they get confused.Sorry to disappoint the folks hoping their fellow competitors get P or safety called.

 

CR

No problem with that. That's what 99% of us are saying we would do. Nobody that I've seen is "hoping" for anybody to get any penalties. Just trying to get on the same page when something does happen how to call it. I'm ok with any ruling on this or just go along with the majority. But I would like to hear from PWB. Thanks

[Diamond S Doug]

Call me wrong but an empty gun falling is a SDQ, not a MSV.

Ike

 

23. Any unloaded gun dropped during a stage will result in Stage Disqualification. Dropped

unloaded guns away from the line will be a no call. A shooter is forbidden from picking up a

dropped gun. The Range Officer will recover the gun, examine it, clear it (if necessary),

return it to the shooter, and assess the penalty. A dropped loaded gun is a Match Disqualification.

An open, empty long gun that slips and falls after being set down and does not

break the 170° safety rule or sweep anyone will result in either a “Prop Failure” call or a

10-second Minor Safety Violation, depending upon the circumstance.

 

If you drop an unloaded gun it is a SDQ, if it falls after you restage, without breaking the 170 its a MSV.

[Whiskey Kid]

There is no penalty for a falling gun. There is a penalty for a gun that falls and hits the floor, provided it was due to shooter haste or negligence. If a TO physically stops a shooter from breaking the 170, would you assign a penalty? Some people should never have the timer and be in charge of a stage if they can't recall the main objective of that position.

 

RANGE OFFICERS

The purpose of trained club Range Officers is to provide the sport of Cowboy Action Shooting™

with competent, firm, and fair officials in all levels of competition and allow Range Officers to

perform any duty on the posse.

The main objective of the Chief Range Officer is to assist the competitor safely through a course

of fire and be an authority in all areas of gun safety, any time, any place.

Range Officer’s Motto: THE PURPOSE OF THE RANGE OFFICER IS TO SAFELY

ASSIST THE SHOOTER THROUGH THE COURSE OF FIRE.

The two words in this statement paramount to why a Range Officer is even necessary on the

firing line are assist and safely. Let’s look at these two words separately and how they affect

one’s actions and attitudes.

ASSIST

As a Range Officer, you are there to assist the shooter. You will notice the word “penalize”

doesn’t appear anywhere, but the word “assist” does. This is not to say you won’t be called upon

to assess penalties when they are appropriate, but it is NOT your first priority. You are there to

prevent safety violations before they occur.

+1

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

kinda like yelling "Open Lever"...saves a MSV...good RO for preventing a safety violation.

 

No difference whether it's a Verbal helping...or a physical helping.

 

Phantom

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

gotta love wordsmiths!!!!

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

So.....

Shooter A carelessly restages a long gun. It starts to fall and the TO catches it then no call.

 

Shooter B carelessly restages a long gun. It starts to fall and the TO does not catch it then MSV. (Assuming no 170 violation)

 

And you guys are ok with two shooter committing the same act but not receiving the same penalty.

 

Y'all must like Rank Points as well.

 

Stan

 

Ps. If the guns were restaged carefully then it must be a prop failure that's why I used the word carelessly.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

kinda like yelling "Open Lever"...saves a MSV...good RO for preventing a safety violation.

 

No difference whether it's a Verbal helping...or a physical helping.

 

Phantom

Not quite.

 

In the first example the TO is giving the shooter the ability to correct it themselves.

 

In the second example the TO is correcting the issue FOR the shooter.

 

I see it like this. Shooter holsters a pistol carelessly and it is on the verge if falling out if the holster. The TO reaches up and pushes it back BEFORE it fall. No call. Same scenario and before the TO can push it back in the gun falls but the TO catches it mid air. SDQ. There is NO doubt the gun was falling and was out of the shooters control.

 

Prior to falling TO help is fine. Clearly falling and out of control of the shooter equal penalty.

 

Stan

[Blastmaster]

Big difference between verbal and physical assistance.

 

So, some are OK with penalizing all the rest of the shooters at the match, especially the folks in the category that the freebie (physical assistance) was given, by NOT awarding a penalty that was EARNED by the shooter?

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Big difference between verbal and physical assistance.

 

So, some are OK with penalizing all the rest of the shooters at the match, especially the folks in the category that the freebie (physical assistance) was given, by NOT awarding a penalty that was EARNED by the shooter?

Not when it comes to "You are there to prevent safety violations before they occur."

 

And to answer your second question, yes. Unless we remove ALL forms of coaching...if you will...there will be inequities in CAS events. One TO might catch a hull in a Shotgun while the next won't...etc, etc.

 

Cheers!

 

Phantom