TO Help

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

I look at plucking the hull and catching a gun and opening the action the same. A safety violation is in progress because of poor gun handling by the shooter. Less prop failure. The responsibility is on the shooter and not transferred to someone else. Like is so common in todays society.... of it isn't my fault, it is someone elses.

 

Yes, the falling gun is dynamic (moving) and penalty doesn't occur until it makes contact with ground/floor. The situation is dynamic as you said and the outcome is just milliseconds from conclusion. So TO physical interaction short circuits the safety violation. Good for TO to possible prevent the safety situation from getting worse, but the responsibility of the event is still on the shooter and thus, there are rewards and penalties for it.

 

Yes, the plucking of hulls is a static action, the gun/hull are not moving.,,, but again, the penalty doesn't occur by SASS rules until next firearm is used. As about, the physical intervention by the TO of plucking the hull out, short circuits the safety violation.

 

Opening the action of a restaged long gun fits the second paragraph.

 

Really, nothing more can be said. I know you all's position and you know mine. Up to the ROC to decide. Until then it will be a chaotic situation..

 

FWIW, the dropped long gun(slithering, bouncing, teatering on edge) is more of a upper level shooters thingy,, where the shooters are ramming, and jamming and slamming guns to get to next shooting position very quickly.

You've got some good points to your argument...and you're right, we'll just have to wait.

 

And FC, I've seen it happen numerous times. No, it's not a very common happening, but it does happen.

 

Phantom

[Griff]

I'm not thinking it's chaotic at all. A static thing like you say is a "null" action on the part of the TO. I've been around long enough to have to break long-standing habits of not "correcting" things like a hull or closed lever, of handing a shooter shotshells... and loved handing a smokeless shooter my BP ones...

 

But... having a prized (or even a not-so-prized), long-gun fall when it could have been easily avoided, whether from a prop failure of being bumped by myself or the TO is an experience I'd rather not give anyone else. Just as a shooter that's tripped, and in the process of falling... who's not going to reach out and try to keep them from injuring themselves.

 

Frankly, if I have to catch a gun that's in motion toward the ground/floor, then maybe the penalty still needs to be applied... and I could live with that... but... it then becomes subjective on the part of the person catching it whether it was actually going to fall, or they just "thought" it was...

 

It's fine the way it is. Penalty applied when it hits the ground/floor... some days you're the bug, some days you're the windshield. Deal with it.

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

I can see it now. Governing body Sanctions Against Sloppy Shooters passes rule "thou shall never touch shooter's guns".

TO also believes helping shooter only hurts other competitors by possibly negating penalties they might earn. Nervous Betty begins stage by firing 9 of the 10 rounds she'd loaded in her rifle and puts it down. TO is busy yelling "that's another miss" to spotters instead of "one more" to Nervous Betty, who takes off for the next shooting position. Betty's coat catches rifle sending it tumbling over backwards, where it hits the rocks causing lever to close and firing 10th round into scorekeeper. TO, now proud of himself because he'd insured a "fair match", even though he COULD have caught rifle yells "that's a DQ!"

 

End result: Nervous Betty spends the rest of her life in mental hospital, scorekeeper's significant other is now a VRP{very rich person) and TO is still recovering from surgery to have head removed from anus. But at least it was "fair".

 

Happy Thanksgiving!

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

We can make the rules any way we want. But you can't rule out instinct. When I see a gun falling I don't think of anything except stop it from falling. How do you rule out what comes natural to us?

 

Has the TO done his job? Yes he eliminated an unsafe situation. Did it prevent the shooter from getting a SDQ or MDQ...why yes it did. Another time the TO may not be in a position to stop the gun from falling. Call it what you want but SXXX happens.

 

I have prevented guns from falling when I could. Don't see me stopping he practice!

 

Ike

[Don Coyote, SASS #63736]

I can see it now. Governing body Sanctions Against Sloppy Shooters passes rule "thou shall never touch shooter's guns".

TO also believes helping shooter only hurts other competitors by possibly negating penalties they might earn. Nervous Betty begins stage by firing 9 of the 10 rounds she'd loaded in her rifle and puts it down. TO is busy yelling "that's another miss" to spotters instead of "one more" to Nervous Betty, who takes off for the next shooting position. Betty's coat catches rifle sending it tumbling over backwards, where it hits the rocks causing lever to close and firing 10th round into scorekeeper. TO, now proud of himself because he'd insured a "fair match", even though he COULD have caught rifle yells "that's a DQ!"

 

End result: Nervous Betty spends the rest of her life in mental hospital, scorekeeper's significant other is now a VRP{very rich person) and TO is still recovering from surgery to have head removed from anus. But at least it was "fair".

 

Happy Thanksgiving!

YOU MADE MY DAY! Happy T-Day!!

[Ace_of_Hearts]

 

So you are perfectly "Okay" with me coaching someone thru the sequence to "save" them from a 10 second procedural penalty?

But you have an issue with me stopping their firearm from falling and saving them from a 10 second MSV penalty?

 

This game is ALWAYS a team event.

Better spotters catch edgers - Pick your spotters carefully.

Better scorekeepers write the times accurately and don't transpose numbers or enter information on the wrong line - Pick your scorekeeper carefully

Better TO's react faster or verbalize better - Pick your TO carefully.

 

Either allow the Timer Operator to do their job the best of their abilities or create a complete "Hands Off - Silence is Golden" rule.

 

But until the "Hands Off" rule is placed into affect - I'm going to do the BEST I can to safely assist the shooter.

 

If you feel that is "unfair" because someone else may not get the same level of "assist" from their TO....

Perhaps instead of lobbying for the good TO's to do less; you should be lobbying for the average TO's to elevate their actions?

You forgot the guy behind you at the loading table that told you to put the hammer down on your long gun.

OR - The guy that stopped you from walking to your gun cart with loaded pistols.

OR - Any number of other helpful things we all do for one another when we err in our ways.

 

Happy Thanksgiving

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

and,,, be sure to tell your TO to not give you any help,,,,,

[Blackey Cole]

By stopping a pentaly you are assisting the shooter through the course of fire. By letting a pentaly occur that you could have prevented isn't doing your job as to.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

All this talk about catching a falling long gun makes it sound like it happens all the time. It doesn't. How many of you have seen it happen or done it yourselves?

 

Fillmore

I have "pushed" innumerable long guns to a safe position on a table to ensure they did not fall.

I have caught long guns that were already in motion toward falling.

I have caught pistols that have missed holsters.

 

It may not happen everyday, but it does happen.

And if I am in position and capable to save it, I will continue to do so.

[Most Wanted]

I have "pushed" innumerable long guns to a safe position on a table to ensure they did not fall.

I have caught long guns that were already in motion toward falling.

I have caught pistols that have missed holsters.

 

It may not happen everyday, but it does happen.

And if I am in position and capable to save it, I will continue to do so.

 

 

Stan brought this up earlier with no takers so I must ask this question now that we may have an example .

Creeker are you saying you caught a pistol that someone dropped (great reflexes ) and did not award a SDQ , since you said it missed the holster I'll assume it was empty .

If I misunderstood your post I apologize .

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

 

 

Stan brought this up earlier with no takers so I must ask this question now that we may have an example .

Creeker are you saying you caught a pistol that someone dropped (great reflexes ) and did not award a SDQ , since you said it missed the holster I'll assume it was empty .

If I misunderstood your post I apologize .

Great reflexes?

More likely; lucky and in the right place at the right time. I've missed some too.

 

The couple of times I got one out of air, I either got it back in the shooters hand or in one case personally dropped it back into the holster.

I never even considered awarding the SDQ or MSV (wouldn't even know which to assign if the gun doesn't come to rest {did the gun break the 170 - would it have?}).

I warned the shooters about the potential of their actions and we moved on.

The shooter got told, "you got lucky, some TOs would missed that or been too slow to save you"

Same as I have heard after a shooter gets confused on a sequence and the muzzle swings to the wrong target.

You save them by verbal assistance. And afterwards, "you got lucky, some TOs would have missed that or been too slow to save you"

 

We don't award a Procedural for the 2nd example.

 

So can't see awarding penalty for the first.

 

Solely my opinion. Falling is different than fell.

[Cypress Sun]

I can see it now. Governing body Sanctions Against Sloppy Shooters passes rule "thou shall never touch shooter's guns".

TO also believes helping shooter only hurts other competitors by possibly negating penalties they might earn. Nervous Betty begins stage by firing 9 of the 10 rounds she'd loaded in her rifle and puts it down. TO is busy yelling "that's another miss" to spotters instead of "one more" to Nervous Betty, who takes off for the next shooting position. Betty's coat catches rifle sending it tumbling over backwards, where it hits the rocks causing lever to close and firing 10th round into scorekeeper. TO, now proud of himself because he'd insured a "fair match", even though he COULD have caught rifle yells "that's a DQ!"

 

End result: Nervous Betty spends the rest of her life in mental hospital, scorekeeper's significant other is now a VRP{very rich person) and TO is still recovering from surgery to have head removed from anus. But at least it was "fair".

 

Happy Thanksgiving!

 

This post is a keeper.

 

I've always tried to save a falling gun and always will.......it's in my nature I guess.

[Most Wanted]

Great reflexes?

More likely; lucky and in the right place at the right time. I've missed some too.

 

The couple of times I got one out of air, I either got it back in the shooters hand or in one case personally dropped it back into the holster.

I never even considered awarding the SDQ or MSV (wouldn't even know which to assign if the gun doesn't come to rest {did the gun break the 170 - would it have?}).

I warned the shooters about the potential of their actions and we moved on.

The shooter got told, "you got lucky, some TOs would missed that or been too slow to save you"

Same as I have heard after a shooter gets confused on a sequence and the muzzle swings to the wrong target.

You save them by verbal assistance. And afterwards, "you got lucky, some TOs would have missed that or been too slow to save you"

 

We don't award a Procedural for the 2nd example.

 

So can't see awarding penalty for the first.

 

Solely my opinion. Falling is different than fell.

To me (just my opinion and no more valid than yours ) if you caught the pistol the shooter dropped it. The rule is for dropping an empty gun and how it lands only comes into question if it breaks the 170. You catching it ( and again great job ) only saves the finish on the gun and erases the Chance of breaking the 170 but does not erase the fact that he dropped it. To me no different than if he jacked a round and you caught it. That round is dead just like that gun was dropped. In the shooter swinging the gun towards the wrong target you were able to redirect him so no P was ever committed. I'm not saying give out penalties for infractions that never happened just for ones that did. I think over the years the line between planting a gun on a prop for a shooter to keep it from falling has expanded to restageing a gun that has fallen or been dropped. Again it does not have to hit the ground or floor etc. to earn the penalty the way the rules are written at this time. I know many do not agree with how I look at this and that's why I started this thread. I wanted to ether get an ROC ruling or a general consensus of how TOs are handling this. Thanks to all.

[Blackey Cole]

Great reflexes?

More likely; lucky and in the right place at the right time. I've missed some too.

The couple of times I got one out of air, I either got it back in the shooters hand or in one case personally dropped it back into the holster.

I never even considered awarding the SDQ or MSV (wouldn't even know which to assign if the gun doesn't come to rest {did the gun break the 170 - would it have?}).

I warned the shooters about the potential of their actions and we moved on.

The shooter got told, "you got lucky, some TOs would missed that or been too slow to save you"

Same as I have heard after a shooter gets confused on a sequence and the muzzle swings to the wrong target.

You save them by verbal assistance. And afterwards, "you got lucky, some TOs would have missed that or been too slow to save you"

We don't award a Procedural for the 2nd example.

So can't see awarding penalty for the first.

Solely my opinion. Falling is different than fell.

Assuming the revolver was empty, and the hammer down on a empty chamber it would be a no call since the falling gun never hit the ground. Otherwise it would be a case of a revolver not being safe to leave the shooters hand.

[Most Wanted]

Assuming the revolver was empty, and the hammer down on a empty chamber it would be a no call since the falling gun never hit the ground. Otherwise it would be a case of a revolver not being safe to leave the shooters hand.

 

The rule says dropped . I can not find anywhere in the rules that it must hit the ground to be considered dropped . it has been a established that a sg round is considered dropped once it leaves your control . I would tend to believe that a gun would not have a more liberal interpretation of dropped .

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Most Wanted,

 

Maybe the following will help. It's on p. 18 of the ROI.

"Any unloaded gun dropped during a stage will result in Stage Disqualification. Dropped unloaded guns away from the line will be a no call. A shooter is forbidden from picking up a dropped gun. The Range Officer will recover the gun, examine it, clear it (if necessary), return it to the shooter, and assess the penalty. A dropped loaded gun is a Match Dis- qualification. An open, empty long gun that slips and falls after being set down and does not break the 170° safety rule or sweep anyone will result in either a “Prop Failure” call or a 10-second Minor Safety Violation, depending upon the circumstance. As long as the shooter has contact with the firearm, it is considered as still in their control. No call should be made until the firearm comes to rest—wherever that may be. Then determine the condition of the firearm at rest and whether or not the 170° safety rule was ever broken on its way to its final resting point in order to assess the proper penalty (if any at all)."

 

Where the gun comes to rest only seems to apply to long guns.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

[Yusta B.]

Hi Most Wanted,

 

Maybe the following will help. It's on p. 18 of the ROI.

"Any unloaded gun dropped during a stage will result in Stage Disqualification. Dropped unloaded guns away from the line will be a no call. A shooter is forbidden from picking up a dropped gun. The Range Officer will recover the gun, examine it, clear it (if necessary), return it to the shooter, and assess the penalty. A dropped loaded gun is a Match Dis- qualification. An open, empty long gun that slips and falls after being set down and does not break the 170° safety rule or sweep anyone will result in either a “Prop Failure” call or a 10-second Minor Safety Violation, depending upon the circumstance. As long as the shooter has contact with the firearm, it is considered as still in their control. No call should be made until the firearm comes to rest—wherever that may be. Then determine the condition of the firearm at rest and whether or not the 170° safety rule was ever broken on its way to its final resting point in order to assess the proper penalty (if any at all)."

 

Where the gun comes to rest only seems to apply to long guns.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

I would interperate the highlighted text to pertain to determining whether or not the 170 was broken & not whether the gun was dropped & out of the shooters control. IMHO

[Most Wanted]

That rule seems to make my point . Other than making a call on the 170 where it comes to rest seems to not matter . Also a gun may break the 170 before it comes to rest . So you may need to lead me a little further to see what your getting at . Sorry

[Hoss]

Totally playing Devil's advocate here, but what if.....TO sees tetering rifle on prop, pushes it to keep it from possibly falling, and pushes it off the table. Who gets the penalty?

 

And for what's it's worth, if I think I can stop a gun from falling, I will try.

[Yusta B.]

Totally playing Devil's advocate here, but what if.....TO sees tetering rifle on prop, pushes it to keep it from possibly falling, and pushes it off the table. Who gets the penalty?

 

And for what's it's worth, if I think I can stop a gun from falling, I will try.

TO buys that one.