TO Help

[Lunger]

What the hell does "category" have to do with assisting a shooter safely through a course of fire? If you have the clock, do your job.

[Blastmaster]

Not when it comes to "You are there to prevent safety violations before they occur."

 

And to answer your second question, yes. Unless we remove ALL forms of coaching...if you will...there will be inequities in CAS events. One TO might catch a hull in a Shotgun while the next won't...etc, etc.

 

Cheers!

 

Phantom

Plucking hulls, catching falling firearms, opening levers by TO is not coaching.

 

SASS is suppose to be an individual sport, not a team event. Verbal Coaching is OK. When the TO gets into the physical part (catching, plucking, repositioning, opening, etc) of the stage shooting, then it becomes a team event..

 

I know there is team shooting already, so it isn't new.

 

With that, we will have to agree to disagree.

[Blastmaster]

What the hell does "category" have to do with assisting a shooter safely through a course of fire? If you have the clock, do your job.

Yes Lunger, do your job and give the penalties that are earned.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Plucking hulls, catching falling firearms, opening levers by TO is not coaching.

 

SASS is suppose to be an individual sport, not a team event. Verbal Coaching is OK. When the TO gets into the physical part (catching, plucking, repositioning, opening, etc) of the stage shooting, then it becomes a team event..

 

I know there is team shooting already, so it isn't new.

 

With that, we will have to agree to disagree.

Yes, coaching is not perhaps the proper word...but I'm sure you understood my message.

 

I agree...we'll just disagree on this one.

 

[Lunger]

Have the same response as phantom. Dr Phil couldn't fix this.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

I'll say it again, until SASS tells me not to, I will actively safely assist the shooter through the course of fire!!!!!

 

yu dunt want me to help you, tell me, I'll try not too!!!

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

I'll say it again, until SASS tells me not to, I will actively safely assist the shooter through the course of fire!!!!!

 

yu dunt want me to help you, tell me, I'll try not too!!!

I'm the same way CC...I'll always do everything I can to help assist ANY shooter to safely make it through a stage. Frankly, I wish every TO had the same philosophy as you...unfortunately there are those that don't or are selective on who they help.

 

Oh well, I can only control what I do.

 

Phantom

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I have TO'd both hands on and hands off.

 

The only way for the sport to be "visibly fair" given that we have volunteer TOs with varying degrees of experience, reaction times, and varying degrees of interpretation of the rules, is for a TO to be verbally helpful, but physically hands off unless he is stopping a safety violation that he is going to call if it gets any worse.

 

We have come to the conclusion in the rules and TO practice that it is not correct for a TO to be handing shells to a shooter. Or clearing a gun jam for a shooter. For every TO to do the job to about the same level of assistance, I think it is time to consider that "no physical help" while shooting the stage is the most even policy. Exceptions should be allowed for folks who have handicaps. For folks who are confused to the point of being unsafe. And you would certainly continue to "lay on hands" if a sweep of another person was about to occur. But, guns that are restaged badly, and are teetering, or guns that the shooter dropped, muzzles pointed downrange on empty guns when the shooter is about to head down range in front of them, if you cannot fix the problem with a verbal command and no major safety violation will occur, if the TO "fixes" something physically to the point that he has removed a situation where there would have been a penalty awarded, he has "taken away" a penalty.

 

And you know our general idea about not awarding a penalty where a penalty was due - that penalizes all other shooters at the match who were able to run the stage properly.

 

Here's one way to handle it - if the TO (or even spotter) had to take a physical action to prevent a safety situation, restraining a shooter or adjusting/catching/returning a gun to proper restaging location or direction - then the shooter gets the penalty as if the TO had not made the "save". We would get better, safer outcomes (those safety situations would be avoided) without having some shooters feel like, wow, that TO just saved Fred's stage, and Fred (the person who really made the mistake) gets off free of penalty. That leads to folks cherry-picking the TOs they think will take physical action to help them get the stage done, since not all TOs will have the experience, reaction time and alertness to save a mistake with the same good outcome.

 

It is ALREADY a VERY hard job to TO. Let's not make it even harder by requiring each TO to be able and willing to react instantly to make a physical save of impending safety violations. If the TO can give a verbal warning, I am VERY satisfied he has done his job. Like, "rifle" or "rifle muzzle" or "hull in shotgun". Let's not get to the point of requiring/allowing the TO to pick fired hulls out of shotguns for the shooter's benefit and to save them a safety penalty.

 

As a practical matter while running the clock, if I put my hands on a shooter or their guns, it is almost always because they have committed a major safety violation worthy of a SDQ or MDQ and I have already called "Cease Fire" and they did not immediately do so. There are a couple of very hard-of-hearing shooters that I know well, for whom a pointed finger toward the right target is the only way to answer their question "What's next?", but normally it's hands off and they get to finish whatever mess they have started on their own, because in those situations, the more a TO tries to help, the worse the confusion usually gets.

 

 

Good luck, GJ

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

I have TO'd both hands on and hands off.

 

The only way for the sport to be "visibly fair" given that we have volunteer TOs with varying degrees of experience, reaction times, and varying degrees of interpretation of the rules, is for a TO to be verbally helpful, but physically hands off unless he is stopping a safety violation that he is going to call if it gets any worse.

 

We have come to the conclusion in the rules and TO practice that it is not correct for a TO to be handing shells to a shooter. Or clearing a gun jam for a shooter. For every TO to do the job to about the same level of assistance, I think it is time to consider that "no physical help" while shooting the stage is the most even policy. Exceptions should be allowed for folks who have handicaps. For folks who are confused to the point of being unsafe. And you would certainly continue to "lay on hands" if a sweep of another person was about to occur. But, guns that are restaged badly, and are teetering, or guns that the shooter dropped, muzzles pointed downrange on empty guns when the shooter is about to head down range in front of them, if you cannot fix the problem with a verbal command and no major safety violation will occur, if the TO "fixes" something physically to the point that he has removed a situation where there would have been a penalty awarded, he has "taken away" a penalty.

 

And you know our general idea about not awarding a penalty where a penalty was due - that penalizes all other shooters at the match who were able to run the stage properly.

 

Here's one way to handle it - if the TO (or even spotter) had to take a physical action to prevent a safety situation, restraining a shooter or adjusting/catching/returning a gun to proper restaging location or direction - then the shooter gets the penalty as if the TO had not made the "save". We would get better, safer outcomes (those safety situations would be avoided) without having some shooters feel like, wow, that TO just saved Fred's stage, and Fred (the person who really made the mistake) gets off free of penalty. That leads to folks cherry-picking the TOs they think will take physical action to help them get the stage done, since not all TOs will have the experience, reaction time and alertness to save a mistake with the same good outcome.

 

It is ALREADY a VERY hard job to TO. Let's not make it even harder by requiring each TO to be able and willing to react instantly to make a physical save of impending safety violations. If the TO can give a verbal warning, I am VERY satisfied he has done his job. Like, "rifle" or "rifle muzzle" or "hull in shotgun". Let's not get to the point of requiring/allowing the TO to pick fired hulls out of shotguns for the shooter's benefit and to save them a safety penalty.

 

As a practical matter while running the clock, if I put my hands on a shooter or their guns, it is almost always because they have committed a major safety violation worthy of a SDQ or MDQ and I have already called "Cease Fire" and they did not immediately do so. There are a couple of very hard-of-hearing shooters that I know well, for whom a pointed finger toward the right target is the only way to answer their question "What's next?", but normally it's hands off and they get to finish whatever mess they have started on their own, because in those situations, the more a TO tries to help, the worse the confusion usually gets.

 

 

Good luck, GJ

Well said, GJ.

 

Fillmore

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

So, I see a rifle on the edge of a prop and push it a little to insure it doesn't fall off (I might be in front of it when it does), and Smokey Joe gets a penalty? How do we know it would not have stayed put?

 

I'm giving this gun a nudge every opportunity I get, and I'm not calling a penalty. Pulling empty hulls and opening levers is up to the shooter, but gun stability is something a TO should be able to handle without question. Would you even WARN the poor sap? and what if they had started to move and you're in the way now? Some folks get a break, some folks don't. My fellow BP shooter got a strong gust of wind and a sub 20 stage, and I get still air and 35 seconds, tough luck. I got the TO able to save my gun, you didn't. I don't see the tempest or the problem.

 

Too many variables to just let the chips fall.

 

CR

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Just aren't any variables if the TO never touches a gun. It's all on the shooter and what he did, unless the TO says "prop failure".

 

 

I have the sense that is what the rules writers wanted when they wrote the rules. Why do I say that - the rule in the RO I handbook that says:

 

23. Any unloaded gun dropped during a stage will result in Stage Disqualification.

Dropped unloaded guns away from the line will be a no call. A shooter is forbidden from picking up a

dropped gun. The Range Officer will recover the gun, examine it, clear it (if necessary),

return it to the shooter, and assess the penalty. A dropped loaded gun is a Match Disqualification.

An open, empty long gun that slips and falls after being set down and does not

break the 170° safety rule or sweep anyone will result in either a “Prop Failure” call or a

10-second Minor Safety Violation, depending upon the circumstance.

As long as the shooter has contact with the firearm, it is considered as still in their control.

No call should be made until the firearm comes to rest—wherever that may be. Then

determine the condition of the firearm at rest and whether or not the 170° safety rule was

ever broken on its way to its final resting point in order to assess the proper penalty (if any at

all).

 

 

When the TO is grabbing a gun that is still moving - due to being dropped, restaged poorly, bumped by the shooter as the shooter runs to next position - the TO is not following the rules. The TO is instructed to let the gun come to rest, apparently so the correct penalty can be awarded.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

I do not see the prohibition on preventing a potential hazard, only direction on when a call can be made.

 

CR

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

Just aren't any variables if the TO never touches a gun. It's all on the shooter and what he did, unless the TO says "prop failure".

 

 

I have the sense that is what the rules writers wanted when they wrote the rules. Why do I say that - the rule in the RO I handbook that says:

 

 

When the TO is grabbing a gun that is still moving - due to being dropped, restaged poorly, bumped by the shooter as the shooter runs to next position - the TO is not following the rules. The TO is instructed to let the gun come to rest, apparently so the correct penalty can be awarded.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Write all the rules you want but if you think I'm going to consciously let a gun, that could conceivably be loaded, fall and potentially shoot someone just to insure "fairness" you're mistaken!!!!!

[Griff]

I'll say it again, until SASS tells me not to, I will actively safely assist the shooter through the course of fire!!!!!

 

yu dunt want me to help you, tell me, I'll try not too!!!

+1! I've been RO'ing a LONG time... I still see these two words as unseparable... "...safely assist..."! Even if a gun is in no danger or falling on its own, but has ½ the stock hanging off the prop, (horizontal or otherwise), I'll still give it a nudge to keep from it being bumped and being knocked off...

 

IMO, there's no excuse for a TO or other range officer to allow a gun to hit the ground... if it can be prevented. That doesn't mean it still won't happen, and the shooter penalized, but... Simple courtesy demands action to prevent possible damage to another's property, and if a penalty gets lost in the action... so be it.

 

Standing by and simply watching another's gun fall, is both disrespectful and IMO, negligent.

[Blastmaster]

ya all good natured TO's can catch all the dropped guns heading for the floor/ground, but not quite yet arrived yet you want in the attempt to prevent an unsafe condition from getting worse,,, or not! You could fumble the pass/catch and redirect the muzzle to break the 170 or toward the shooter or yourself.

 

Just award the shooter the penalty he earned.

 

Now if you are just pushing the rifle back on a little.... was the lever completely closed/open before you tampered with the gun? Was the 170 plane broken? Where/what was the shooter doing when you were doing all this handyman duties?

 

I don't see this being a big issue because most dropped long guns slither off the front of the hay bale or table of which no one is really in a position to correct.. ,,,,or sliding down a wall on a vertical restage, of which there are dang few stages written with vertical restaging & not in one of those buddy caddy thingies.

 

My consern is the part of the TO physically assisting the shooter to prevent a penalty.

 

Now, for another can of worms and a rather counter contridiction to what I just said above.,,,,, I don't have a problem with TO physically assisting a newbie shooter with a malfunctioned firearm while the bewildered shooter is standing there ready to eat xx rounds as misses. The shooter has not earned a penalty at that point but the clock is still ticking. If the final ruling says no physical contact with shooter, I can live with that too.

 

Surprised PWB hasn't posted yet about this physical assistance w/o penalty debate.

[Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963]

please keep my $1200 rifle from crashing onto the rocks, I will gladly take the SDQ.

cc

[Wyatt]

It's all about reflexes. By the time you think about catching a long gun.......its on the ground.

 

You're either going to react without thinking, no matter what the rule, and try your best to catch it........or practice these words "Dang Pard, I'm sorry"

[Most Wanted]

I would assume (dangerous ) that with the lack of ROC input they will leave it to the TOs and MDs which I can live with. There are good points on both sides and a lot of mud in the middle. I think out of instinct we react in a positive way to help the shooter but that Was Not the point of this thread. What's the call afterward was what I was looking for. So I'm going to pick somewhere in the middle for now. Full disclosure time. So if you come to the line and I'm holding the timer here's the way is going to play out. If you throw your long gun down with no regard and it's bouncing or sliding and looking like it May fall I will do my best to plant it on the prop so it don't with NO call. If it falls from the prop I will do my best to catch it to save it from harm and a possible 170 infraction but will call a MSV. I can hear the calls for TO replacement already. And I am fine with that.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

.... So if you come to the line and I'm holding the timer here's the way is going to play out. If you throw your long gun down with no regard and it's bouncing or sliding and looking like it May fall I will do my best to plant it on the prop so it don't with NO call. If it falls from the prop I will do my best to catch it to save it from harm and a possible 170 infraction but will call a MSV. I can hear the calls for TO replacement already. And I am fine with that.

That would be an excellent approach, I would say.

 

Some of this stuff happens about once every blue moon to a given TO.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

I miss the days when we could hand shells to the shooter without penalty and no one thought there was anything wrong with that...

 

Something has gone out of the game since that time and whatever that something was ...

 

I sure do miss it

[Blastmaster]

I miss the days when we could hand shells to the shooter without penalty and no one thought there was anything wrong with that...

 

Something has gone out of the game since that time and whatever that something was ...

 

I sure do miss it

Shoot at small monthly clubs with like minded pards...

 

Edit: If you do, then it will not be an official SASS Match, because you are not following SASS rules. And there is nothing wrong with that.

[Blastmaster]

If the ROC leaves it up to the TO & MD, then it will be as it is now, chaotic,

 

End of the World if nothing change? No.

[Blastmaster]

delete

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

I miss the days when we could hand shells to the shooter without penalty and no one thought there was anything wrong with that...

 

Something has gone out of the game since that time and whatever that something was ...

 

I sure do miss it

that was finally corrected because of an incident at EOT one year,,,, around 06 perhaps,,,, maybe 08...

 

then all we did was add a penalty for it....

 

and no, at least I don't think SASS started downhill because we addressed that situation..

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

that was finally corrected because of an incident at EOT one year,,,, around 06 perhaps,,,, maybe 08...

 

then all we did was add a penalty for it....

 

and no, at least I don't think SASS started downhill because we addressed that situation..

 

As you probably recall, the EoT incident involved a member of the ROC and an RO Instructor (one was the shooter, the other the T/O).

Both had gotten into the habit of handing the shooter SG ammo (or receiving it) during a stage at their MONTHLY matches (at which everyone KNOWS that SASS rules don't apply)

This was a common practice accompanied by the caveat that it would NOT be allowed at the sanctioned match level...but there was no penalty up to that point.

 

The main reason for DISallowing it was that every shooter might not get the same opportunity for the assist...depending the individual T/O:

Some don't even wear their SG ammo belts when running the clock...no help from that quarter.

Some shoot different SG ammo (e.g. a BP shooter would have received a "P" if handed smokeless ammo...a smokeless shooter might not appreciate being given BP rounds)

Not everyone uses the same gauge shotgun...a .410, 20ga or 16ga user would be SOL if the T/O only had 12ga ammo on his person (and vice versa).

 

Luck of the draw entered into the equation...same as the difference between a T/O who is able to give assistance in a timely manner vs. one who simply holds the clock & watches the shooter commit various safety and/or procedural violations.

 

Bug vs windshield on any given stage/day.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

OH, I remember it all very well,,,, even where I was standing when the "news" came to us!!!!

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

BTW, that was also the same shooter who's shotgun I caught in mid-air after it bounced off of a table....

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Plucking hulls, catching falling firearms, opening levers by TO is not coaching.

 

SASS is suppose to be an individual sport, not a team event. Verbal Coaching is OK. When the TO gets into the physical part (catching, plucking, repositioning, opening, etc) of the stage shooting, then it becomes a team event..

 

 

So you are perfectly "Okay" with me coaching someone thru the sequence to "save" them from a 10 second procedural penalty?

But you have an issue with me stopping their firearm from falling and saving them from a 10 second MSV penalty?

 

This game is ALWAYS a team event.

Better spotters catch edgers - Pick your spotters carefully.

Better scorekeepers write the times accurately and don't transpose numbers or enter information on the wrong line - Pick your scorekeeper carefully

Better TO's react faster or verbalize better - Pick your TO carefully.

 

Either allow the Timer Operator to do their job the best of their abilities or create a complete "Hands Off - Silence is Golden" rule.

 

But until the "Hands Off" rule is placed into affect - I'm going to do the BEST I can to safely assist the shooter.

 

If you feel that is "unfair" because someone else may not get the same level of "assist" from their TO....

Perhaps instead of lobbying for the good TO's to do less; you should be lobbying for the average TO's to elevate their actions?

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

 

So you are perfectly "Okay" with me coaching someone thru the sequence to "save" them from a 10 second procedural penalty?

But you have an issue with me stopping their firearm from falling and saving them from a 10 second MSV penalty?

 

This game is ALWAYS a team event.

Better spotters catch edgers - Pick your spotters carefully.

Better scorekeepers write the times accurately and don't transpose numbers or enter information on the wrong line - Pick your scorekeeper carefully

Better TO's react faster or verbalize better - Pick your TO carefully.

 

Either allow the Timer Operator to do their job the best of their abilities or create a complete "Hands Off - Silence is Golden" rule.

 

But until the "Hands Off" rule is placed into affect - I'm going to do the BEST I can to safely assist the shooter.

 

If you feel that is "unfair" because someone else may not get the same level of "assist" from their TO....

Perhaps instead of lobbying for the good TO's to do less; you should be lobbying for the average TO's to elevate their actions?

+10000000000000000000000000000000000

[Kirk James]

Excellent pt. Creeker Everyone appreciates spooters who do their best, TO's that are there to assist the shooters, scorekeepers who are accurate. I appreciate a great posse who is there to assist each other in making the shoot an enjoyable, safe and fair event. I believe the reason so many shooters request to be placed with others is for a positive experience , and not for unfair advantage. I would hope that all TO's would assist in a firearm from breaking the 170 and not hitting the ground. My vote is not to penalize the shooter for this kind of assistance. There should not be any question concerning assisting a fellow shooter from an unsafe condition.

[Blastmaster]

 

So you are perfectly "Okay" with me coaching someone thru the sequence to "save" them from a 10 second procedural penalty?

But you have an issue with me stopping their firearm from falling and saving them from a 10 second MSV penalty?

 

This game is ALWAYS a team event.

Better spotters catch edgers - Pick your spotters carefully.

Better scorekeepers write the times accurately and don't transpose numbers or enter information on the wrong line - Pick your scorekeeper carefully

Better TO's react faster or verbalize better - Pick your TO carefully.

 

Either allow the Timer Operator to do their job the best of their abilities or create a complete "Hands Off - Silence is Golden" rule.

 

But until the "Hands Off" rule is placed into affect - I'm going to do the BEST I can to safely assist the shooter.

 

If you feel that is "unfair" because someone else may not get the same level of "assist" from their TO....

Perhaps instead of lobbying for the good TO's to do less; you should be lobbying for the average TO's to elevate their actions?

Yes Creeker, verbal communication is very good. Physical interaction (TO plucking hulls out, catching falling guns, opening closed levers, handing shells to shooter and such stuff) is not!

 

Your spotters, scorekeepers, ULT/LT officers examples are not physically touching shooter during the course of fire. Those officers are there to score and record what they truly believe happened. If they don't believe, then BOD goes to shooter and the two out of three (for misses) vote is scored.

 

I don't see an NFL coach running out onto the field to intentionally physically tackle the runner. I don't see the Referees intentionally physically blocking for the runner.

I do see coaches screaming/waving from the sideline.

 

The best spotters that some seem to team up or pick are the deaf/blind and uncertain ones. Hmmmmm.. CLEAN! Or the scorekeeper that transposes number and seems to make it a smaller number.

 

Bottom line, hands off..

 

Now if ROC comes on and says hands on interaction is OK, and TO can open levers, pluck hulls, catch guns and such, well then I will stand fully corrected and my whole concept and understanding how an individual shooting sport was wrong.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

I often times physically assist he shooter,,,, no I don't open the lever or pull hulls or cases out, but I will grab a shooter to keep him from moving in an unsafe condition, or catch a falling gun...

 

why don't you ask the ROC to clarify those issues???? I know Im right so I don't have too.....

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Comparing the plucking of a hull out of a port to stopping a gun from falling to the ground is like comparing Apples to Oranges...

 

The hull penalty exists...and is static.

 

The falling gun is in the process...dynamic.

 

I suppose they could be equated if the TO saw a hull in the air...heading towards the open port...and bats it away before it can land in the port...thereby creating a MSV. And in this case, a no call would be appropriate.

 

And yes, it is late and my thinking may not be completely clear...

 

Phantom

 

PS: If you don't like my tone, just PM me...it's the "Cowboy Way".

[Blastmaster]

I look at plucking the hull and catching a gun and opening the action the same. A safety violation is in progress because of poor gun handling by the shooter. Less prop failure. The responsibility is on the shooter and not transferred to someone else. Like is so common in todays society.... of it isn't my fault, it is someone elses.

 

Yes, the falling gun is dynamic (moving) and penalty doesn't occur until it makes contact with ground/floor. The situation is dynamic as you said and the outcome is just milliseconds from conclusion. So TO physical interaction short circuits the safety violation. Good for TO to possible prevent the safety situation from getting worse, but the responsibility of the event is still on the shooter and thus, there are rewards and penalties for it.

 

Yes, the plucking of hulls is a static action, the gun/hull are not moving.,,, but again, the penalty doesn't occur by SASS rules until next firearm is used. As about, the physical intervention by the TO of plucking the hull out, short circuits the safety violation.

 

Opening the action of a restaged long gun fits the second paragraph.

 

Really, nothing more can be said. I know you all's position and you know mine. Up to the ROC to decide. Until then it will be a chaotic situation..

 

FWIW, the dropped long gun(slithering, bouncing, teatering on edge) is more of a upper level shooters thingy,, where the shooters are ramming, and jamming and slamming guns to get to next shooting position very quickly.

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

All this talk about catching a falling long gun makes it sound like it happens all the time. It doesn't. How many of you have seen it happen or done it yourselves?

 

Fillmore