Warden Callaway Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 I see a couple of brands offer 12 gauge shot shells loaded to subsonic levels. This idea interest me. But the loads are not always available where I buy stuff. I've done some searches for recipes on line but have not found any for subsonic velocity loads. Anyone loading their own subsonic loads? Can you point me towards powders to use? Maybe even published recipes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rio Brazos Kid Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Sending you a PM. RBK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nota John, SASS #51089L Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 What velocity are you looking for? Sonic level is 1100FPS. Win Featherlites are 980 FPS. I have been handloading at 760FPS due to retinal detachment surgrey. Kindly advise what you are after. Yours. Nota John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Hodgdon shows the recipe for the 980 fps Nota John mentions. Win AA hulls, Win 209 primers and WAA12SL wads. Just curious, since felt recoil is subjective, why is subsonic the objective? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted September 20, 2014 Author Share Posted September 20, 2014 Hodgdon shows the recipe for the 980 fps Nota John mentions. Win AA hulls, Win 209 primers and WAA12SL wads. Just curious, since felt recoil is subjective, why is subsonic the objective? The reason are the noise reduction and less muzzle blast. Having not shot any, I'm just speculating on those results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Brules Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 I recently bought some (comparatively) inexpensive, off-the-shelf Winchester AA's at WalMart, Box reads Low Recoil Low Noise Target Load (for use in break open and pump shotguns only) 980 velocity, 26 gram (slightly <1oz.) #8 shot, MIN dram eq. (powder load). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 The reason are the noise reduction and less muzzle blast. Having not shot any, I'm just speculating on those results. Howdy Warden. Most cowboy rounds are in the 980 - 1100+ fps range, so with earplugs, I don't notice much if any difference in noise. As a TO and spotter, I'm not aware of any difference in muzzle blast. At least nothing stands out to me. For me to take notice, it needs to be a Pheasant load which is in the 1500 fps range. Not something you want to use on a CAS range. Black powder loads are another matter. They make a lot of noise flash and smoke at subsonic speeds. It's cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted September 20, 2014 Author Share Posted September 20, 2014 I recently bought some (comparatively) inexpensive, off-the-shelf Winchester AA's at WalMart, Box reads Low Recoil Low Noise Target Load (for use in break open and pump shotguns only) 980 velocity, 26 gram (slightly <1oz.) #8 shot, MIN dram eq. (powder load). I bought 10 boxes of same when the rebate was on. It brought the price down to the level of the bargain brands. I've not shot any of it yet. Mary has been shooting Fiocchi trainer loads we got at a good price. Now they are at $8.50/box. I bought a case of Federal Extra-lite with about the same specs this week for less than $60 before tax. Said it was loaded with Alliant Extra-lite powder. Mary could tell no difference in recoil or sound but didn't like the smell. I loaded a lot of black powder and subs because I had a lot of old stock of the stuff. But I'm down to part of a pound now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Whiskers Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 I recently bought some (comparatively) inexpensive, off-the-shelf Winchester AA's at WalMart, Box reads Low Recoil Low Noise Target Load (for use in break open and pump shotguns only) 980 velocity, 26 gram (slightly <1oz.) #8 shot, MIN dram eq. (powder load). Those are what Winchester used to call the featherlite's. 26 gram is about equal to a 7/8 load. And boy is Winchester proud of them now. I haven't seen any on the shelves for less that $8.59- 8.99 in over a year. I've been using the grey Claybuster 7/8 oz wads for a couple of years now and they seem to be pretty close to the factory ones using the Winchester featherlite powder with the gr's right on the bottle. They have the same stock or product number as the old ones but with a Y added to the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Clark Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Warden, you can obtain subsonic "Gamer" loads with some published data out there. I believe that the Win Featherlite powder is being discontinued by Hodgdon as I recall reading. I am having excellent results with Alliant E3 , Claybuster 0178- 12 wads {Grey} and both Win 209 as well as Rio 209's! The current velocities are approximately 975 to 985 FPS, primer dependent! I have also obtained the same velocities with Clays, but with it's limited supply currently, it is being held in reserve for other uses. I haven't been able to get Red Dot to work as well at the sub 1,000 FPS level, too much unburnt powder so I am using it for 1 1/8 oz loads at 1,045 FPS which really bust fliers! Before anybody whips out a hanging rope for me posting load data, there is no powder values listed here ! These loads work well in SxS and 97's in my experience! PM if you like for more...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted September 20, 2014 Author Share Posted September 20, 2014 Looks like about all I can do now is research until shotgun powder becomes available. I have Unique and TiteGroup powder but I don't think either one will load down to subsonic. I played with black powder and Pyrodex loads last winter. Started out with loads under "square" and got down to loads of around half black powder to shot ratio by volume. They would still roll a milk jug with authority. But if I'm going to shoot white in rifle and pistol, I'd like to shoot white in shotgun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Warden, I use about anything in the 7/8 to 1 oz., #7 - #8 anywhere between the 980 fps up to the 1180 fps. Although I can tell alittle difference in the 980 and the 1180 loads, its not enough thats discernable to me. Ya might want to try anything in the 1 oz or less, #7 or #8 shot under 1100 fps and you should find yourself a good load. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Jones, SASS 2263 Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Federal makes a Metro load that shows 900 fps. Don't know how available it is though, as I have never seen it stocked anywhere that I can recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa Irish Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 I had a subsonic load yesterday. I was practicing and one of my loads had no powder. The shot and wad cleared my 97 at a very subsonic speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 With the discontinuation of the WAALite powder used to duplicate Winchester's low noise, low recoil shell, options are reduced. Clays is unavailable. Many used it for light loads. Alliant Extra Light looks like an option but like most shotgun powders it is still out-of-stock. I bought five cases of factory low noise, low recoil AAs from retailers this summer and sent in for the $100 rebate (rebates ended on 9/13). This keeps my wife shooting loads she likes. I'm shooting 7/8 oz loads powered by American Select and I find their recoil acceptable. However my wife dislikes them. I could assemble loads using APP. APP makes a gentle recoiling shotgun load. However why shoot APP at a match unless you are in a BP category? Time to stop rambling and load up the truck. It's Saturday and there is a match scheduled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 I haven't been able to get Red Dot to work as well at the sub 1,000 FPS level, too much unburnt powder ............. I'm having that problem using Winchester WST. When I try to reduce the velocity, I get a lot of un-burned powder. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack, SASS #20451 Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Snake, WST doesn't work at low velocities in SG shells. it is SUPER Target. Awesmoe for 45ACP though !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 For LIGHT loads, I have tended to run higher velocities and lighter shot. Much easier to find loading data for that. 7/8 ounce at 1150 or 1200 is not a bad recoil load. And it takes out targets of all kinds pretty nicely. WST is hard to control (for uniformity) down at 900 FPS or so....Tried that, now back to 1150 with it. And with Red Dot. Shoot APP if you want a light shotshell load..... Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Hap... yes... I am finding that out... indeed, if I stay up around 1200 fps I can get a clean burn. Joe... You are preaching to the choir about APP (although I have other favorites) for light shotgun loads. I don't really need the super lite smokeless loads for myself, I'm working on them for a little lady. I picked up a couple of cases of WW Feather lites, but those won't last for ever.... in the mean time, I was trying to use this dang 8lb can of WST that I picked up to come up with something that is easy on her... may have to regroup. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted September 20, 2014 Author Share Posted September 20, 2014 Can APP be ran through powder measures? Does it require that the gun be cleaned real soon after shooting? It looks like it costs $10 more than Graf & Son's black so it needs to be some advantage to offset the cost. We are Stoeger doubles so they are not hard to clean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 I run it through my dillon and Lee measures, I prep my guns and sray they regular when used with Amsoil MP. I spray before I but the guns in to a gun sock almost everytime. That being said I forgot to clean them after shooting app for around three weeks to a month once and had no ill effects once the guns were cleaned. That sold me on both products. Check with capt Baylor there was a special case sale going on a month or so ago. He has also tested it against the other subs and real bp. Check out his articles in the CC or his website. Curtrich.com is the main page the go to cowboy ?? Something then you'll see a list of the articles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 For LIGHT loads, I have tended to run higher velocities and lighter shot. Much easier to find loading data for that. 7/8 ounce at 1150 or 1200 is not a bad recoil load. And it takes out targets of all kinds pretty nicely. WST is hard to control (for uniformity) down at 900 FPS or so....Tried that, now back to 1150 with it. And with Red Dot. Shoot APP if you want a light shotshell load..... Good luck, GJ +1 Bingo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Can APP be ran through powder measures? Does it require that the gun be cleaned real soon after shooting? It looks like it costs $10 more than Graf & Son's black so it needs to be some advantage to offset the cost. We are Stoeger doubles so they are not hard to clean. Wait 'till Capt. Baylor posts another announcement on match special then buy a case. Meanwhile find a single jar of APP FFFg and give it a try. Many use powder measures. For the limited number of shells I assemble for my wife I just use a dipper. Regarding cleanup, there is no hurry and my wife's SKD doesn't have a single rust spot. APP is very smoky and lacks unpleasant smells. Just buy a 1-lb jar, load some shells and make your own decision on the powder's worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted September 21, 2014 Author Share Posted September 21, 2014 I've re-found Captain Baylor's great wrightup. As always, it's hard to justify reloading shotgun shells if you can be happy with target or small game loads at about $6.00/box. Mary's happy with the Fiocchi Trainer loads. In fact, she's deadly with her Stoeger. She's not failed to knock a target down yet. I was just thinking she'd be happier with subsonic loads. APP and other subs would have a cost disadvantage to smokeless because of the approximate double size charge. Obviously, if you wanted a load that smokes, reloading is about the only way to go. Obvious too, APP is available and most shotgun powders are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Mary's happy with the Fiocchi Trainer loads. In fact, she's deadly with her Stoeger. She's not failed to knock a target down yet. I was just thinking she'd be happier with subsonic loads. Why fix what ain't broke? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Clark Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Snakebite, there are some powders like Red dot and WST that won't go low without issues. With the E3 burn rate, it seems to respond well at lower loadings, plus I have found it is clean and is now showing back up on the market. Just bought couple pounds at Sportsmens warehouse on my last trip up to visit my son in Albuquerque! Nothing better than FRESH powder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bramble Mountain Buzzard Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Captain Clark, I have to disagree. I use PROMO which is basically the same as Red Dot only slightly denser. I have zero issues with downloaded rounds. I shoot here in Minnesota/Wisconsin in temps from single digits to 90+. From dry to Minnesota humid. Been shooting my handloads for CAS for 8 years with zero issues. Buzzard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted September 22, 2014 Author Share Posted September 22, 2014 Talk about a shortage of shotgun powder, we had one guy that had the shotgun shells he'd loaded without powder. Maybe more, someone loaned him some to finish the match. Them loads were so subsonic, they didn't leave the barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Clark Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Buzzard....OK, we'll agree to a different outcome. I too have shot in extremes, like snowing to 104+ during the "warm" season . I also use and enjoy Red Dot, just in different loadings! My experience is with Red Dot, not Promo which has a different density as you pointed out. Warden Callaway was looking for light load info, and I am passing on my experience! Remember, your results may vary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonecoldkane Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 Hey guy, i am new to this cowboy shooting and i saw the comments to the 12 gauge topic... i have a baker 12ga black powder and i was told by an old timer that he shoots the winchester aa 26oz shells in his black power because of the low recoil, and he does fine...Is this true? if the power is low enough can you use it in a black powder shotgun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted April 25, 2016 Author Share Posted April 25, 2016 Hey guy, i am new to this cowboy shooting and i saw the comments to the 12 gauge topic... i have a baker 12ga black powder and i was told by an old timer that he shoots the winchester aa 26oz shells in his black power because of the low recoil, and he does fine...Is this true? if the power is low enough can you use it in a black powder shotgun?I wouldn't. There is a lot more to safety shooting these old shotguns than recoil. First off, the chamber and forcing cones were made for shorter, roll crimped shells loaded with fiber wads. Shooting modern folded "star" crimped loads causes what amounts to an obstruction when the fold unfolds in the end of the chamber. Second, the metal in the old guns were fine with black powder as the pressure curve is much slower. No smokeless powder has such a slow pressure curve. Smokeless powder pressure curve is a spike and then falls off. Then there is the whole issue of the integrity of old, often times Demarcus and hammer twist barrels. Some are deathly afraid of these old shotguns - expecting them to blow up at any moment just setting there. Some show no respect to the possible dangers and think they can shoot anything that will chamber. Then others shoot them with ammo that they were designed to shoot - provided the gun is in sound condition. Here is how I load black powder loads for my black powder era shotguns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonecoldkane Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 That is great. problem is i dont do reloading... at least not yet. i just got into all the cowboy action and just bought the guns for the monthly shows... I have my fathers old baker black powder i would love to shoot but i havent found any one that sells the black powder shells.. the last ones i found were at a gun show ( old navy shells) and since then i havent seen any.. i cant find anyone on the wb either that sells them. the man that told me said he shot the feather lites cause the feet per second was the same as the black powder but i didnt want to try it till i got more info so what you have told me will keep me from trying it so thank you. do you know of anyone that sells the shells? how about the smokeless powder they came out with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Spurs Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 Sent you a PM. I've used Accurate Arms (AA) Nitro 100 and Solo 1000 for about 4 years producing loads that feel noticeably lighter than the Winchester LNLR 980 fps loads. They have worked on everything we've shot at in Texas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, and at Winter Range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 It's not about the velocity, as Warden said. It's about pressure. Besides, as he also said, the chambers may not be correct and the metal may not be up for it. Where are you located? First step would be to find a qualified gunsmith to inspect the gun and make sure it's safe to shoot at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted April 25, 2016 Author Share Posted April 25, 2016 Here I'm shooting a heavy black powder load in a New Baker 10 gauge. I shot this gun in the first match in February using loads half as heavy as I used in the video. It still had plenty of power. More fun than a barrel of monkeys but the heavy gun was a handicap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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