stonecoldkane Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 I have it at my gunsmith now, getting action done on my lever rifle and revolvers.... so if it is all good to shoot where can i get black powder loads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted April 25, 2016 Author Share Posted April 25, 2016 Do you know that it's of black powder only era gun? I have two old double barrel shotguns that were of models initially made before smokeless but are newer production guns as and were proofed for nitro of the day. A research of the model and serial number should provide the answer. Still, the chambers and forcing cones would be for shorter roll crimped shells. There are a number of sources for black powder loads. I've seen them but don't have contact information. I'm sure others can help you locate some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonecoldkane Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 its a baker from 1909 to 1916 the Batavia Brush with 26-inch Twist barrels and a straight-grip stock The Batavia Leader number series were from 75,000 to about 106,000; including the Batavia Brush in the late part of the series. this is my gun the brush, doesnt say about using both powders..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted April 25, 2016 Author Share Posted April 25, 2016 Well, in that case, your old Baker was made well into the smokeless era. It well COULD be nitro proofed and MAY be safe for light smokeless loads provided the gun is solid. As far as I know there are no marks that indicates nitro proof of these old American made guns. There still remains the question of the chambers and forcing cones. Talk with your gunsmith about this issue. He can measure the chambers and advise. I shot the Baker Leader shown at the end of the loading video in the March match with black powder roll crimped loads. Got pictures? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonecoldkane Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 what does the chambers and cones tell us about the gun? i have pics but they are on my phone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted April 25, 2016 Author Share Posted April 25, 2016 Folded "star" closed shotgun shells were not introduced until about 1960. Before that they were paper hulls with roll crimped and fiber wads. Before that, brass. If you look down the bores of an old gun you will see an abrupt change in the diameter from chamber to actual bore. In modern guns, the transition is more of a funnel shape. Also, way back when, there was no standard cartridge length. 2.5 was a common length in 12 gauge. A modern 2-3/4" shell will chamber and fire but unfold in small diameter of barrel rather than in chamber. The European guns had chamber length as part of their proof marks. American guns, you're on your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonecoldkane Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 about how far down barrel is the change? looks like in mine there is a small change about 3 to 4 inches down it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.shotgun-forcing-cones.html Stonecoldkane, here is a link to a pretty good overview of chambers and forcing cones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Monger Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 Don't understand the problem with Red Dot for light 12 gauge loads. I use the resipy that comes in the bag with clay buster 7/8 wads and it works great. Very light, wife and granddauter both shoot the heck of them from their Stogers. We also use the AA low recoil, low noise to get new hulls. AA load is 10 bucks a box here. Have also used the clay buster 3/4 oz wads with Red Dot and their resipy. I like the 7/8 load better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted April 25, 2016 Author Share Posted April 25, 2016 Here is Larry Potterfield recutting a short chamber on an old shotgun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boothill Bandit, SASS# 48598 Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 I'm having that problem using Winchester WST. When I try to reduce the velocity, I get a lot of un-burned powder. Snakebite Yeah, we've watched you with much amusement while you practice shotgun loads with un-burnt powder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonecoldkane Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 can anyone tell me what the ft per sec and muzzle pressure of 12 gauge black powder is compared to smokless 12 gauge of today feather lite loads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 If you mean chamber pressure, never heard of muzzle pressure, the Win Low Noise/Low Recoil load is advertised at 980 fps and 5,600 psi chamber pressure. BP loads are completely different. What shell? What primer? What powder? How much powder? Wad? Shot charge? I would suggest you get the Lyman Shotshell Handbook and do a bit of reading. No one here is going to tell you it's safe to shoot in your shotgun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonecoldkane Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 i have a baker 12 gauge black powder. 1909- 1916 year of make... i was told that if i use featherlite 26g shells by winchester that i could shoot them in it since their ft per sec is about 860. but i was also told that its the pressure that matters more then the ft so i was trying to find what the pressure between a black powder load and a load of today is to see if it could handle it..... a few shooters do this but i wanted to research it further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted May 5, 2016 Author Share Posted May 5, 2016 i have a baker 12 gauge black powder. 1909- 1916 year of make... i was told that if i use featherlite 26g shells by winchester that i could shoot them in it since their ft per sec is about 860. but i was also told that its the pressure that matters more then the ft so i was trying to find what the pressure between a black powder load and a load of today is to see if it could handle it..... a few shooters do this but i wanted to research it further. Don't believe what you've been told. Lot more to it. Black powder pressure curve is much different than smokeless. The chambers and forcing cones in these old guns are not the same as modern guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 i have a baker 12 gauge black powder. 1909- 1916 year of make... i was told that if i use featherlite 26g shells by winchester that i could shoot them in it since their ft per sec is about 860. but i was also told that its the pressure that matters more then the ft so i was trying to find what the pressure between a black powder load and a load of today is to see if it could handle it..... a few shooters do this but i wanted to research it further. Obviously, whoever told you that they are at 860 hasn't looked at the box or Winchester's website. Both say 980 fps. Along with Hodgdon's load data sight for the equivalent load. Yes, it is more so the pressure that matters more than the velocity but it isn't just the pressure numbers. As Warden just said, there is a whole lot more to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonecoldkane Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 now my gun doesnt tell me the size shell it was made for either... any guesses? 2 1/2 or 2 3/4? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 Didn't the gunsmith tell you that? You said you had it there getting checked out. And I bet is has neither 2 1/2" or 2 3/4" chambers. Unless it's been modified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 can anyone tell me what the ft per sec and muzzle pressure of 12 gauge black powder is Black powder is not much different than smokeless http://www.goexpowder.com/images/LoadCharts/Breechloading-SG-Shells.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted May 5, 2016 Author Share Posted May 5, 2016 "Just because it zips doesn't mean it fits" also applies to shotguns. Just because it fits, doesn't mean it's safe to shoot in it. Think of shotguns as four completely different systems. The first were black powder powered. The barrels were wire twist or Damascus or some other combination of hammer welded. The actions were normally cast iron. There were no industry standards or testing requirements in the USA. Each country in Europe adopted a proofing system that included basic chamber dimensions. In the mid-1890s, "nitro" or smokeless powder was introduced. Barrel steels were improved. Compressed steel, Krump steel and barrels forgrd in a seamless tube. Yet in the USA, no standards were adopted and no proofing were done. Europe continues to proof each gun and have re-proofed old black powder guns. Cartridges were paper with fiber wads and roll crimped. In about 1960 plastic hulls with star crimp and plastic cup wads were introduced. This started a trend to heavier loads and more pressure. The chambers and forcing cones evolved to better handle the new ammo. Stronger steels replaced cast iron. Barrels were much thicker and stronger. The newest shotguns are chambered for magnum loads with longer chambers because of the edict of using steel shot. Barrels are heavier and stronger. The chambers, cones and even the bores are different. Think of four different guns and four different design concept of ammo. Providing the gun is in good condition, shoot the ammo it was designed to shoot is the best and safest advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 The actions were normally cast iron. Nope. But if you replace the word CAST with WROUGHT, you would be right. Most barrels and gun parts up until post-Civil War times were wrought iron. Some cannon barrels were made with a wrought iron barrel liner and a cast iron body, or even totally of cast iron (but then, a lot of cannon blew up upon test firing back then, too). Cast Iron was not used for cartridge shotgun receivers at any time. Had it been used, the remnants of the receivers would have been WIDELY distributed throughout the hunting fields. Lots of the barrels were wrought iron. When steel began to be made by the Bessemer process, then steel barrels began to be adopted, but at first they were considered lower grade than the Damascus wrought iron barrels that had graced many of the Civil War and later shotguns. Oh, and "Krump" should be Krupp - a premier German steel making company that used the family name on the steel they made. Good luck, GJ PS - here's a great article about iron and steel making in early American and how it was used in firearms manufacturing. http://www.flintriflesmith.com/WritingandResearch/WebArticles/ironandsteel.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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