Hypothetical you make the call

[Sage Creek Gus SASS #64320]

A shooter shoots the wrong target with his first shot.

 

He knows he has a "P" and he can only get one "P" per stage so he dumps all the rest of his rifle and handgun targets on the same target to try to make up some of the 10 second penalty.

 

What's the call.

 

SCG

[Captain Bill Burt]

SOG (+ the P of course).

[Cypress Sun]

Depends on if the rifle targets are also pistol targets. Regardless of misses/procedural he probably also earned an Spirit of the Game penalty also.

 

In the last 16 years, I've only seen one SOG awarded.........for this exact same type scenario.

 

CS

[Sage Creek Gus SASS #64320]

A “failure to engage” occurs when a competitor willfully or intentionally disregards the stage

instructions in order to obtain a competitive advantage and is not assessed simply because a

competitor “makes a mistake.” A Failure to Engage applies only to non-shooting situations such

as refusing to rope a steer, throw a stick of dynamite or otherwise make an attempt to complete

any other non-shooting procedure written within the stage instructions. In such a case, in

addition to any penalties for misses, a 30-second failure to engage/Spirit of the Game penalty is

assessed.

That's what I would think but notice the portion I have highlighted from the R01 handbook.

SCG

[Hoss]

by strict interpretation of the rules, I think a P and SOG.

 

But.....who wants to give an SOG! I've had the same thoughts when I earned a P. Never did it though.

 

I have earned a P for not starting a sweep on the corret target, realized it, and just continued the sweep incorrectly. but, I did not dump, I shot every target. just not the corrct sweep.

[Fingers McGee]

SOG.

+1

 

Now, if he just continued to shoot at the targets in the incorrect order without attempting to gain a competitive advantage, just the P would be sufficient. Happened at local club match yesterday, scenario called for double tap sweep of rifle targets l to r, shooter shot R1, R2 - oops, then mixed up the rest of the shooting order that actually added to his time. - He was only awarded the P.

 

Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee

[Hoss]

 

A “failure to engage” occurs when a competitor willfully or intentionally disregards the stage

instructions in order to obtain a competitive advantage and is not assessed simply because a

competitor “makes a mistake.” A Failure to Engage applies only to non-shooting situations such

as refusing to rope a steer, throw a stick of dynamite or otherwise make an attempt to complete

any other non-shooting procedure written within the stage instructions. In such a case, in

addition to any penalties for misses, a 30-second failure to engage/Spirit of the Game penalty is

assessed.

That's what I would think but notice the portion I have highlighted from the R01 handbook.

SCG

This would not be a failure to engage SOG, but a shooting other than instructed to gain an advantage.

[Sage Creek Gus SASS #64320]

This would not be a failure to engage SOG, but a shooting other than instructed to gain an advantage.

 

This would not be a failure to engage SOG, but a shooting other than instructed to gain an advantage.

Where is this covered in the handbooks?

 

SCG

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

If the rifle and pistol targets were separate, then add 10 misses to the P. I think 60 seconds is sufficient to cancel any competitive advantage.

[Captain Bill Burt]

ROI pages 1 and 2.

You do not look for ways to create an advantage out of what is or is not stated as a rule or shooting procedure........

(You don't take advantage of the 1 P per stage rule.)

 

A "spirit of the game" infraction occurs when a competitor willfully or intentionally disregards the stage instructions in order to obtain a competitive advantage (i.e., taking the penalty would result in a lower score or faster time than following the instructions)

[Sage Creek Gus SASS #64320]

If the rifle and pistol targets were separate, then add 10 misses to the P. I think 60 seconds is sufficient to cancel any competitive advantage.

 

If the rifle and pistol targets were separate, then add 10 misses to the P. I think 60 seconds is sufficient to cancel any competitive advantage.

The situation I was considering was dumping ten rifle shots on one rifle target and ten handgun shots on one handgun target..

 

SCG

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

1. Some parts of the rule book set state that SOG is for non-shooting errors. Other parts of the rule book encyclopedia state that there ARE shooting situations that can earn the SOG. The rules need to be cleaned up on this point.

 

2. This is an obvious attempt to shoot the stage in a manner other than specified by the instructions in order to gain an advantage. It's the real SOG call. Call it.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Hoss]

Where is this covered in the handbooks?

 

SCG

FAILURE TO ENGAGE/SPIRIT OF THE GAME

 

 

30-Second Penalty

 

 

•

Willfully shooting a stage other than the way it was intended in order to gain a competitive advantage.

 

 

page 25, RO I

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Yep. He deserves/earned a "P" + a SOG.

 

Bet he won't do it again.

[Sage Creek Gus SASS #64320]

FAILURE TO ENGAGE/SPIRIT OF THE GAME

 

 

30-Second Penalty

 

 

•

Willfully shooting a stage other than the way it was intended in order to gain a competitive advantage.

 

 

page 25, RO I

 

FAILURE TO ENGAGE/SPIRIT OF THE GAME

 

 

30-Second Penalty

 

 

•

Willfully shooting a stage other than the way it was intended in order to gain a competitive advantage.

 

 

page 25, RO I

 

 

This is all very interesting.

 

The reason I first published this post was because of a situation we had yesterday at our match. I thought we had handled the following situation correctly and only started this thread to answer the original posted question.

 

The stage directions were as follows:

 

Five rifle/pistol targets numbered t1 to t5 from left to right.

 

shoot the five targets in the following manner.

 

1 shot on t1, 3 shots on t2, 2 shots on t3, 3 shots on t4, 1 shot on t5.

 

Shoot the shotgun targets.

 

Then advance and shoot the five targets in the same way with the handguns.

 

One shooter decided he didn't want to shoot the targets in that manner so he just shot each target twice from left to right with both rifle and handguns expecting to get a "P" penalty.

 

At first we called a Spirit of the Game penalty but after consulting the handbook and seeing the part that said the SOG only applied to "non shooting" instructions we dropped the SOG penalty.

 

It now appears there is conflict between the rules on this. I feel we should not award the SOG penalty now but I'm interested in how others view this situation for future reference.

 

I'm inclined to apply the non shooting part of the rules because it give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter

 

I do believe this should be clarified in the rules.

 

.Sage Creek Gus

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

I wouldn't have awarded a SOG in the revised scenario. I don't think he saved 10 seconds by shooting it the way he did.

[Sage Creek Gus SASS #64320]

I wouldn't have awarded a SOG in the revised scenario. I don't think he saved 10 seconds by shooting it the way he did.

 

I wouldn't have awarded a SOG in the revised scenario. I don't think he saved 10 seconds by shooting it the way he did.

Just for the record. He didn't shoot it that way to try to gain an advantage, he just didn't want to bother to memorize the scenario.

 

SCG

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

 

Just for the record. He didn't shoot it that way to try to gain an advantage, he just didn't want to bother to memorize the scenario.

 

SCG

Then why even show up to the match!! He could have gone to the range by himself and done that.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

OK, with the second scenario he shot "pretty close" to what the instructions called for. This one is a judgement call - the rules are never going to spell out how much of a "competitive advantage" has to be gained in order to get the SOG.

 

My take on this version is he would just get a P and a hard ribbing from the posse.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Madd Mike #8595]

SOG, due to the intent that you hypotheticaly state

if the dump was to gain time over other shooters it would be a SOG

thats all I am sayin

[Sage Creek Gus SASS #64320]

SOG, due to the intent thay you hypotheticaly state

 

SOG, due to the intent thay you hypotheticaly state

He stated he thought the scenario was too difficult so decided not to bother to try to learn it.

 

Sixteen other shooters shot the same scenario without a single P.

 

SCG

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

One shooter decided he didn't want to shoot the targets in that manner so he just shot each target twice from left to right with both rifle and handguns expecting to get a "P" penalty.

 

.Sage Creek Gus

In this case I do not think he could gain a competetive advantage, just a P, However they should be reminded that the RO is there to help them through the course of fire. And if they get lost on the stage the RO will point out the correct target, and that this will probably take much less than a 10 second P. Remind them to ask for coaching before the stage starts, this will usually help the shooter save a bunch of time and penalties. Good Luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Sage Creek Gus SASS #64320]

In this case I do not think he could gain a competetive advantage, just a P, However they should be reminded that the RO is there to help them through the course of fire. And if they get lost on the stage the RO will point out the correct target, and that this will probably take much less than a 10 second P. Remind them to ask for coaching before the stage starts, this will usually help the shooter save a bunch of time and penalties. Good Luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

 

In this case I do not think he could gain a competetive advantage, just a P, However they should be reminded that the RO is there to help them through the course of fire. And if they get lost on the stage the RO will point out the correct target, and that this will probably take much less than a 10 second P. Remind them to ask for coaching before the stage starts, this will usually help the shooter save a bunch of time and penalties. Good Luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

When we were discussing this after the fact the RO said he offered to help him through the stage but the shooter turned him down.

 

SCG

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

Sounds to me like the shooter "Earned" a Spirit of the Game penalty..

Shot it the way he wanted... no what was specified... (duh.. I can't remember the sequence.. it's too hard.. get real)

Turned down the RO/TO's assistance to help through the stage..

 

Rance

Thinkin' it seemed like the shooter (hypothetically) was askin' fer one

Oh yeah... and a "P"

[Madd Mike #8595]

In this case I do not think he could gain a competetive advantage, just a P, However they should be reminded that the RO is there to help them through the course of fire. And if they get lost on the stage the RO will point out the correct target, and that this will probably take much less than a 10 second P. Remind them to ask for coaching before the stage starts, this will usually help the shooter save a bunch of time and penalties. Good Luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

if dumping rounds (was on purpose) and is faster then shooting the string as intended, than the saved time would change the overall score and standings in the match, wether he saved enough time to negate the P or not, it changes the big overall scoring pitcure

[Shooting Bull]

In this case I do not think he could gain a competetive advantage, just a P, However they should be reminded that the RO is there to help them through the course of fire. And if they get lost on the stage the RO will point out the correct target, and that this will probably take much less than a 10 second P. Remind them to ask for coaching before the stage starts, this will usually help the shooter save a bunch of time and penalties. Good Luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

 

I MIGHT disagree with you on that. He actually did gain a competetive advantage in that he would have had to slow down and think about the correct sequence in order to shoot it correctly. He intentionally chose not to do that and simply double tapped the targets assuming the worst the spotters could give him was a 10 second Procedural penalty. Did his choice of double taps make up for the 10 second P? No, probably not but, that's not the point.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

if dumping rounds (was on purpose) and is faster then shooting the string as intended, than the saved time would change the overall score and standings in the match, wether he saved enough time to negate the P or not, it changes the big overall scoring pitcure

Howdy MM, I agree

 

When we were discussing this after the fact the RO said he offered to help him through the stage but the shooter turned him down.

 

SCG

If that's the way he wants to play then I guess a SOG is in order. Then I wonder why he goes to the trouble to wear those funny looking clothes Good Luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Turkey Creek Red, SASS # 22854]

I would agree with the SOG penalty, but I thought that if you shoot the wrong type of target with the incorrect type of firearm, it was a miss, not a "P", but it would not be the first time that I was wrong today.

[Blackjack Bill]

I also agree with SOG...

[Yusta B.]

I would agree with the SOG penalty, but I thought that if you shoot the wrong type of target with the incorrect type of firearm, it was a miss, not a "P", but it would not be the first time that I was wrong today.

P for dumping gun on 1 correct target type, misses for dumping other gun on incorrect target type & SOG for both dumps.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

The sequence sucked...IMHO.

 

Some folks would say to hell with it...my memory sucks more then the sequence...just give me a "P" right now and I'll Double Tap it just to save the pain that I would be inflicting on the spotters that would be trying to follow my mental collapse.

 

Phantom

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

P for the 1st shot hitting the wrong target (assuming it was a correct "type" target)

1 FIVE second miss penalty for EACH shot that struck an incorrect "type" target

and then if they argued about it

1 Spirit of the Game penalty

 

Assuming a 10-10-4 stage.

We are adding 10 seconds for the P

50 seconds for the 10 strikes on the incorrect type of target

and possibly 30 seconds for the SoG

 

The 60 seconds worth of penalty without SoG would likely be enough to dissuade the shooter from ever trying that again.

Tacking on the additional 30 would just be if they had a problem with it.

 

Assessing the SoG for the way they shot it is a moot issue, because there is NO possible way that adding 50 seconds worth of misses is an advantage.

[Anvil Al #59168]

This is all very interesting.

 

The reason I first published this post was because of a situation we had yesterday at our match. I thought we had handled the following situation correctly and only started this thread to answer the original posted question.

 

The stage directions were as follows:

 

Five rifle/pistol targets numbered t1 to t5 from left to right.

 

shoot the five targets in the following manner.

 

1 shot on t1, 3 shots on t2, 2 shots on t3, 3 shots on t4, 1 shot on t5.

 

Shoot the shotgun targets.

 

Then advance and shoot the five targets in the same way with the handguns.

 

One shooter decided he didn't want to shoot the targets in that manner so he just shot each target twice from left to right with both rifle and handguns expecting to get a "P" penalty.

 

At first we called a Spirit of the Game penalty but after consulting the handbook and seeing the part that said the SOG only applied to "non shooting" instructions we dropped the SOG penalty.

 

It now appears there is conflict between the rules on this. I feel we should not award the SOG penalty now but I'm interested in how others view this situation for future reference.

 

I'm inclined to apply the non shooting part of the rules because it give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter

 

I do believe this should be clarified in the rules.

 

.Sage Creek Gus

 

 

This is a lot different than the dumping you mentioned in your first post.

 

If he just dumps. Yes. I would say SOG.

 

But the above. I would just give a P.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

+1

[Cypress Sun]

Why not just post the facts on the first go around. On the dump scenario, it's an obvious SOG. In the second scenario I'd call a P + misses. No obvious intention to gain a competive advantage.

 

BTW, IMO the stage didn't suck. Shot that one before on numerous occasions.

 

CS