Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted May 27, 2013 Share Posted May 27, 2013 Actually most stages these days are designed so that the middle of the pack and lower shooters can negotiate them without to much difficulty. The result is that the supposed "fast guys" shoot them really fast. I'm pretty much over the idea that the "fast guys" are dictating stage design. I would much rather have some added difficulty. Take a look at the shootoff videos from EOT last year. I don't see any whining and I don't see anyone slowing down despite the small kd's for every shot. Practiced shooters don't have to slow down as much as the next level down shooter. Match Directors are setting their matches up to please the majority of shooters that also happen to not practice that much but still like to hear bang and them clang. Why? Because they are SMART enough to know who pays the bills. If you are not being challenged enough at your current matches try to go faster or try another shooting style. Stan - who double dog dares anyone to accuse me of not having fun while shooting fast. PS feel free to throw in some difficulty but be prepared for the results if you go overboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Hand Posted May 27, 2013 Share Posted May 27, 2013 It has to do with those that are in many cases older...shakier...physically less capable...etc, etc. It's the bottom of the packers... Cowboy Action Shooting isn't Fast Draw...that's why the ACTION is in the name. Phantom Well Phantom, I see you remember shooting with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamond S Doug Posted May 27, 2013 Share Posted May 27, 2013 We just shot Duel in the Desert and they had a 10 pistol 8 shotgun. the pistols were shot from a doorway pickup vertical staged shotgun move to barrel shoot 2 SG, move to beginning of mine shaft shoot 2 SG move to end of mine shaft and shoot 4 SG. Very Fun and the lack of rifle kept the stage in time with the other stages so as not to create a back up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 Well Phantom, I see you remember shooting with me. We seemed to always have fun didn't we! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dang It Dan 13202 Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 And it is OK; however, the preponderance of stages are designed for fast shooters shooting fast. A stage or two a match designed for something esle shouldn't wreck their fun. You are kidding right? - The preponderance of stages are designed for the middle-of-the-pack shooter. The top shooters I know would design a much more difficult stage in order to challenge themselves and their contemporaries. The one thing I know about any shooting sport is that you separate the wheat from the chaff by utilizing target size and target distance. A top shooter can increase his position from an "also ran" much more dramatically if you moved the pistol targets out to 12 yards and the rifle out to 25. It may add two seconds to my time on the stage, but it will add at least twice that to the average shooter's time. The stages we have today are the stages that the masses want to shoot, not the top 5%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 You are kidding right? - The preponderance of stages are designed for the middle-of-the-pack shooter. The top shooters I know would design a much more difficult stage in order to challenge themselves and their contemporaries. The one thing I know about any shooting sport is that you separate the wheat from the chaff by utilizing target size and target distance. A top shooter can increase his position from an "also ran" much more dramatically if you moved the pistol targets out to 12 yards and the rifle out to 25. It may add two seconds to my time on the stage, but it will add at least twice that to the average shooter's time. The stages we have today are the stages that the masses want to shoot, not the top 5%. I agree 100% I know that I don't design stages for the top 5...10...20%. I'm always looking at the bottom 1/3...wanting to make sure that they have a good time. The top 20% or so will shoot whatever match ya throw at them. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 You are kidding right? - The preponderance of stages are designed for the middle-of-the-pack shooter. The top shooters I know would design a much more difficult stage in order to challenge themselves and their contemporaries. The one thing I know about any shooting sport is that you separate the wheat from the chaff by utilizing target size and target distance. A top shooter can increase his position from an "also ran" much more dramatically if you moved the pistol targets out to 12 yards and the rifle out to 25. It may add two seconds to my time on the stage, but it will add at least twice that to the average shooter's time. The stages we have today are the stages that the masses want to shoot, not the top 5%. I think you stated it correctly Dan. I agree. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 You are kidding right? - The preponderance of stages are designed for the middle-of-the-pack shooter. The top shooters I know would design a much more difficult stage in order to challenge themselves and their contemporaries. The one thing I know about any shooting sport is that you separate the wheat from the chaff by utilizing target size and target distance. A top shooter can increase his position from an "also ran" much more dramatically if you moved the pistol targets out to 12 yards and the rifle out to 25. It may add two seconds to my time on the stage, but it will add at least twice that to the average shooter's time. The stages we have today are the stages that the masses want to shoot, not the top 5%. +100 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 I agree 100% I know that I don't design stages for the top 5...10...20%. I'm always looking at the bottom 1/3...wanting to make sure that they have a good time. The top 20% or so will shoot whatever match ya throw at them. Phantom Bravo, That would be me in the bottom 1/3. I always have fun. However, it is always even more fun to hit the targets and not get Ps. One of Hubby's BFFs was a very good shooter (winner at EOT and WR) and long-time MD at an annual match, which was creative and fun; but difficult including small, far targets and tough scenarios. One time, the scenarios were particularly difficult and Hubby tried to talk him out of one where all guns must be shot from the hip or get a P. His comment was, "I can't design a match around the lowest denominator." So, I don't doubt statements that mentality was or is out there. I'm glad to know most folks posting here have some empathy for less talented or able shooters. Regards, Allie "slow" Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 I agree 100% I know that I don't design stages for the top 5...10...20%. I'm always looking at the bottom 1/3...wanting to make sure that they have a good time. The top 20% or so will shoot whatever match ya throw at them. Phantom The top 20% are competitors - plain and simple. They would challenge you to a brass picking contest. And if they weren't playing this game - they would be playing another one. It is who they are. The shooter I have to focus on is the shooter that this may be the first "game" they have ever played. The shooter that may come into a match "knowing" (because of age, inexperience or inability) they will not win. I have to ensure (to the best of my ability) THAT shooter has fun. Because that shooter will likely not return if they are being frustrated by too many misses, "P's" or complications. I always say if the Buckarettes and Grande Dames are smiling - it's a good match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 Stage design for a match of 200+ shooters is very different than a match designed for 40 shooters utilizing 3 bays and two posses. You can play with the small group and induce things that are different and hopefully fun and discover AND record the stage times. With a large match, one stage that is longer than all the rest in time, backs up the whole crowd. A reload takes me several seconds...... That same reload for a new shooter may take 30 or more and cause the posse to be slow and slow compounds itself in a big shoot. By the time you run six posses past the stage you are now backed up 30 minutes or more. I like - Start lines that I can change and make funny Shooters of the same category and skill set shooting with me on the same posse Meeting new people when I go out of town. I don't like - Feeling rushed or hurried People who forget that this is a game not life or death Running up and down stairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 I agree 100% I know that I don't design stages for the top 5...10...20%. I'm always looking at the bottom 1/3...wanting to make sure that they have a good time. The top 20% or so will shoot whatever match ya throw at them. Phantom +1 KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 I am always amazed when folks reference a non issue as the problem. If you are bored with a 10 -10 and 4 loading. Changing the load to 8 - 5 and 6 is not the method to reignite a spark. Frankly, standing at the loading table and loading 8 rounds into my rifle instead of 10 doesn't excite me, it just tells me that I am going to have 20% LESS fun with the rifle. Only using a single pistol on a stage diminishes my fun by 50%. It is never about the round counts - it is what you do with those round counts. And lastly don't confuse different with better - the two terms are not interchangable. ok then 10+1 reload in the rifle and a full 5 round reload in one of the pistols should vastly increase your fun that works for me we did that alot in the gud ol days just sayin--LOL-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 Is it just me. Or is anyone else tired of hearing about the "good ole days" You know. Back when there was not as many shooters in the sport. And the average age was not all Sr category or older. These are the good ole days as far as I am concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 Is it just me. Or is anyone else tired of hearing about the "good ole days" You know. Back when there was not as many shooters in the sport. And the average age was not all Sr category or older. These are the good ole days as far as I am concerned. I said that just to get this response truth is rignt now is the good ol days next year will be the good old days the next decade will be the good ol days geeeeeeese creeker says shooting more is more fun well then do more that 10-10-4 thats all I am sayin post script if I say in the past (on the wire) that works if I anyone says the good old days (on the wire) it always seems to bunch up someones skivies that thar is funny this was a test, it worked again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 It is never about the round counts - it is what you do with those round counts. And lastly don't confuse different with better - the two terms are not interchangable. ok then 10+1 reload in the rifle and a full 5 round reload in one of the pistols should vastly increase your fun that works for me we did that alot in the gud ol days just sayin--LOL-- To repeat the comments of one of my favorite cowboy shooters. It is never about the round counts - it is about what you do with those round counts. 10+1 in the rifle is fine. We do that from time to time. I have even recently moved where my reload rounds are located on my belt to facilitate. If handled correctly within the context of the stage and the match - a full pistol reload would be fine too. Unfortunately (and I saw plenty of this "in the good ol' days") things like this were usually not handled correctly - they were tossed in simply because they were different. Without examining how these challenges affect different categories (a gunfighter or a cap and baller have very differing challenges to a full pistol reload) - affect their equipment (not everybody has 5 pistol rounds on their person) and how they will affect the timing of the match - These ideas are exactly the definition of different not equating better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 I said that just to get this response truth is rignt now is the good ol days next year will be the good old days the next decade will be the good ol days geeeeeeese creeker says shooting more is more fun well then do more that 10-10-4 thats all I am sayin post script if I say in the past (on the wire) that works if I anyone says the good old days (on the wire) it always seems to bunch up someones skivies that thar is funny this was a test, it worked again What ever. You seen to just be spewing out the same ole thing. Madd because nobody does it your way anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlands Bob #61228 Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 Talking about the good ol days, A friend of mine gave me a copy of the 1st Mule Camp stages. Around 1996 if I recall. I was thinking it would be fun to reshoot that match at a monthly. Holy Cow. After reading the stages, there was not one stage that I felt comfortable using. There were stages where you started laying under the wagon on your back and reloading the pistol on the clock. We'd have to have EMT's and a forklift on standby now. Those days were before my time but it's only been 17 years. The game has evolved. Probably for the better. I like it now anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 Talking about the good ol days, A friend of mine gave me a copy of the 1st Mule Camp stages. Around 1996 if I recall. I was thinking it would be fun to reshoot that match at a monthly. Holy Cow. After reading the stages, there was not one stage that I felt comfortable using. There were stages where you started laying under the wagon on your back and reloading the pistol on the clock. We'd have to have EMT's and a forklift on standby now. Those days were before my time but it's only been 17 years. The game has evolved. Probably for the better. I like it now anyways. the game has evolved that is why,,,,,,,,,,,,,, who knows when these will be the called the good ol days by some its no big deal folks geeeese just think out of the triangle once in a while you say less rounds takes away fun but adding rounds does not add fun it must be something in the water this is just a chat room anyways not congress mandating things ps I happen to like gm cars and truck from 1955 to 1972 now those were the good ol days from the past not the good ol days for everyone and guess what, not all of my trucks are that old Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monco Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 Had a stage at a local weekend match last weekend that involved movment between three different firing lines (one for each type of gun) with movment on each firing line around barriers. So the trick was keeping from cycling rifle/cocking revolvers /loading shotgun between barriers as you had to take at least a few steps on each of the three different firing lines.......A decent time was in the 50 second range for the stage. Lots of P's were realized. The movment was different and enjoyable. Some probably didn't feel that way. I got a P, I was upset with MYSELF for the mistake but had a great time in the end and that stage was by far my favorite...... to be honest, I can't even remember the quick more common stages.....they all blend together after a while....I guess I shot them all. A good combination of fast and easy as well as some different stuff making the shooter deviate from the norm with opportunity to under and over think is a good balance. Had a great time with lots of mistakes. Different strokes for different folks I guess. I can understand why this kind of thing would be difficult to do with lots of shooters participating due to time constraints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wagon Box Willy Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 Howdy For what it's worth, it is best to avoid an odd number of shotgun shells, like 5, in the stage. Particularly if you shoot anywhere Ida Mae Holliday shoots. She absolutely hates stages with 5 shotgun shells. She thinks it gives an advantage to '97 shooters. I don't shoot fast enough to be concerned about it, but that is what she says, and she is usually correct. As far as 10, 10, 4 is concerned, I guess i am lucky and there are still plenty of matches in these parts that throw in the occasional stage with 9 rifle or 6 shotgun, or 10, 10, 4 but you shoot them in any order you want. I like the variety as well. We usually have one shoot each season where all the stages are shot in "Driftwood Johnson" sequence. I'll leave it up to your imagination as to how that goes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Had a stage at a local weekend match last weekend that involved movment between three different firing lines (one for each type of gun) with movment on each firing line around barriers. So the trick was keeping from cycling rifle/cocking revolvers /loading shotgun between barriers as you had to take at least a few steps on each of the three different firing lines.......A decent time was in the 50 second range for the stage. Lots of P's were realized. The movment was different and enjoyable. Some probably didn't feel that way. I got a P, I was upset with MYSELF for the mistake but had a great time in the end and that stage was by far my favorite...... to be honest, I can't even remember the quick more common stages.....they all blend together after a while....I guess I shot them all. A good combination of fast and easy as well as some different stuff making the shooter deviate from the norm with opportunity to under and over think is a good balance. Had a great time with lots of mistakes. Different strokes for different folks I guess. I can understand why this kind of thing would be difficult to do with lots of shooters participating due to time constraints. Well...some folks have issues with memory...movements...getting P's. But heck, what's a P-Trap every now and then gunna hurt...right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Had a great time with lots of mistakes. As any of the Nevada pards will tell you, I REALLY enjoy more challenging stages; creative target placement, creative engagement sequences, plenty of movement, etc. That being said, the above looks like a contradiction to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monco Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 As any of the Nevada pards will tell you, I REALLY enjoy more challenging stages; creative target placement, creative engagement sequences, plenty of movement, etc. That being said, the above looks like a contradiction to me. No contradiction, I'll rephrase. I had a great time even though I made a mistake and got a P on that particular stage....because it was challenging, creative, and had plenty of movement that was outside of the typical norm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock Hound Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Quite frankly, I would rather shoot 4 really unique and challenging stages that take longer instead of the usual 6 a match. Less lead my go through the guns, but I will be shooting for about the same amount of time. I am usually only actually shooting for about 5-7 total minutes in a given day anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korupt Karl Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 I've had to do this on a stage at a state match. The shells were shaken up while toting the box to another location. The person that thought of that stage should have been shot in the foot. As chance would have it, he got the box back later as a souvenier. Not gonna mention any names. CS Edit, it was a nice, well made heavy box. Ah! I remember it well....I didn't write the stage, but I was berm marshall for it....lots of train wrecks. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 No contradiction, I'll rephrase. I had a great time even though I made a mistake and got a P on that particular stage....because it was challenging, creative, and had plenty of movement that was outside of the typical norm. Ah, gotcha. Thanks for the clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Montana, SASS #23907 Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 I think you stated it correctly Dan. I agree. ..........Widder I agree wit Widder which agrees wit Dan which agrees wit Stan which agrees wit..... Having fun is a state of mind not an environment. I'm in charge of my fun not the stage writer. It's posse marshals that want to be bosses or egotistical shooters that think the world revolves around them or whiners and complainers that can throw a wet blanket on the "fun" state of mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 I agree wit Widder which agrees wit Dan which agrees wit Stan which agrees wit..... Having fun is a state of mind not an environment. I'm in charge of my fun not the stage writer. It's posse marshals that want to be bosses or egotistical shooters that think the world revolves around them or whiners and complainers that can throw a wet blanket on the "fun" state of mind. talk about the truth I have been witness to more of the red and cas posse marshals are volenteers, as are timer operators, the job titles that shooters are willing to help with the lest frame of mind comes from within the heart and soul of each of us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJT Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 - drop shot shells into a box with a lid, shake them up and start the stage with the closed box on table If you do this around here, I will personally shoot you in the foot.......no I'm not kidding. It's a long story.......not worth getting into right now. Make the box full of uncooked pinto beans. That will make it even, well something......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 Those of you talking about the "Good ol' Days" and recounting some of the difficult stages you may have encountered in the '90s, be advised, those were not the old days. Those were the years of significant growth, an influx of new shooters, new clubs, new stage writers, new match directors, changes in rules, equipment, attitudes and views within the game, in large part due to those growth numbers. The mid '90s saw the change from one sixgun to two, targets sizes grow from 8-10" to 12-14". The number of rule changes only exceeded by those issued during the 1st decade in the 21st Century. A LOT of these new clubs were started by a single person, who'd maybe attended an EOT or 2, maybe a WR. And held those as the bar to measure up to. Something to emulate. And a good thing that is. But not all of them succeeded. Mine didn't. Tex and Cat Ballou came and critiqued us. Hey! What can I say, the Thanksgiving before it was 65º, who knew it would be 33º and snowing in '91? I view the '90s as one of upheavel in the game, the '80s however, NOW those were the good ol' days! We shot whole stages where you only used ONE gun. But it weren't something where even today's top shooters might not finish 5 pistol shots in 6-7 seconds... because they weren't 16" square targets at 5 yards... They probably ranged from 7 - 35 or 40 yards, sized in tune with the times. Remember, these were former IPSC shooters, they just wanted a venue to play with their cowboy guns. Also, remember, your average "baby-boomer" was between 30-40 years of age in 1985. Physical activity wasn't quite the challenge it is for those same folks in 2013. It's very natural to want to excel, even surpass your mentors; but, bigger, more, farther, smaller, are not always moves in theright direction. Ask those that have participanted in all 3-½ decades of this game, I suspect you'll get an unexpected answer. Me? I'm coming up on the 28th anniversary of my participation and I've enjoyed it ALL! The "game" hasn't changed because of what its biggest customer base wants, but because of what those customers NEED! I hear some shooters are astounded by the speeds that the top shooters attain. However, not to detract from their accomplishments, but if the courses of fire and equipment of today were available in the '80s & '90s, we might bot be so atounded! I hear complaints that. "...SASS is nothing but a speed game! Ain't 'fun' anymore..." DUH! NEWS FLASH fans, it was ALWAYS a speed game. It's just that we were using "restrictor plates" in the form target sizes, I still have some targets from the 1st batch I bought for our club in 1990. Except for our falling plate racks, I could make four of our old targets from ONE of our current targets! Man!!! If only I had the time to practice on those ¼ size targets!!! Anyone wanna hire me for an job sweepin' floors for 3-½ days a week, @ about$80K/yr? (I ain't askin' but for a handout... that's about what I'm qualified for, the remainder of available time after practice and matches... what the wife needs in income)! Seriously, the ONE constant I've seen in almost 28 years of shootin' this game, the places and matches that are recognized as fun and successful, have two attributes in common, people in charge with a customer oriented attitude & a willingness to change, or stated differently, a commitment to variety. IMO, if you ain't trying new stuff, you're stagnating. Be you shooter, or match director! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 Ah! I remember it well....I didn't write the stage, but I was berm marshall for it....lots of train wrecks. KK Ah! I remember it well..........It's all your fault.........I know Dan will throw you under the Greyhound too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 Those of you talking about the "Good ol' Days" Seriously, the ONE constant I've seen in almost 28 years of shootin' this game, the places and matches that are recognized as fun and successful, have two attributes in common, people in charge with a customer oriented attitude & a willingness to change, or stated differently, a commitment to variety. IMO, if you ain't trying new stuff, you're stagnating. Be you shooter, or match director! yup well put, and the past was the good ol days today is the good ol days years from now will be the good ol days so make the best of them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cinch, SASS#29433 Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 Ever wonder why nobody knows what the current record is for jumping busses on a motorcycle is? It's cuz nobody cares how many you can jump on a new fangled super suspension dirt bike of some kind. Go jump some using the same equipment Kneivel used then we'll talk... There is welfare, immigration, gun grabbing, Bama, a hundred dollars won't buy nuthin, urban sprawl, too much traffic, gotta take the keys outta my truck and lock the house, no .22 ammo, and global warming 3 yard targets = happy customers californee sweeps, gotta shoot before it gets hot, super low PF for grown ups, grown ups complain about kidss, can't shoot cuz it's cold, and crotch draw holsters! Yeah these are the good ol'days... Well the cart is all loaded with the stuff... Happy Shooting!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 yup and just how do you improve upon these good od days go-en on right now? i say even bigger - and closer or just one target 4' x 8' 10 - 10 - 4 any order, jest DO NOT END with rifle that is a sure way to speed up stages to beat the heat LOL - LOL - lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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