10-10-4+

[Rye Miles #13621]

You know the drill, 6 stages, 10 rifle, 10 pistol 4 + shotgun. No surprises, no reloads hardly any variance from this. Is it time to rethink this? Ya know maybe 6 shotgun or 5? How about a rifle reload, how about 9 rifle?? How about one pistol and 8 shotgun? I'm digging' here folks help me out!

 

 

Whadya''ll think?

 

Rye (I'll go hide now)

[BLACKFOOT SASS #11947]

I think you could write some stages that are a bit different. If folks like them they may say something, if they don't like them they WILL say so.

 

Lafitte

[Boon Doggle]

What Blackfoot said.

 

Variety is the spice of life, or so they say. at PCCSS our illustrious stage writer has been known to change things up with rifle reloads, eight to ten shotgun, and some sweeps that nobody ever heard of before. Sure, every know and then someone will complain, but those are the same folks that complain about the weather always being perfect.

 

As for your digging... As long as no one is shoveling the dirt back in the hole faster than you can get it out, I'd say keep on keeping on.

[Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life]

This is the primary reason I have switched to Wild Bunch Action Shooting. CAS has become extremely boring to me. Same old thing every time all the time. Back in the day we had FUN! It wasn't just about shooting a 20-second stage (which I can't do). I have nothing against speed, but IMHO we have dumbed down CAS to the lowest common denominator, which is speed. No reloads, no "cowboy skills," no ACTION.

 

Big matches must have fast, easy stages just simply to get people through the course while the sun is up. Not so critical at many monthlies, at least in my neck of the plains. However, like most everywhere else, we have catered our shooting program to emulate the big shoots so those who travel can practice. Nothing wrong with that either. But what happened to variety? Wen I started so long ago each club had its own style, its own character. Not so much anymore. All about the same, with just a few exceptions.

 

Lets bring back action and variety. My view, thanks.

[Lou Graham, # 26112]

Writing a stage with something different is really pretty easy. A pistol reload, a couple of long-distance rifle reload shots, lots of shotgun "run-and-gun, some kind of fun "action" target, etc.

 

It gets complicated to work that into the other 5 stages to keep it even for time and prevent posse backups. It can be done, but it does take some extra thinking and planning. After all that extra effort on the part of the stage writer, here come the complaints!!

 

"You didn't tell me to bring hot ammo for the distance rifle shot"

"It's too hot to do that much running"

"We shouldn't use moving targets, they are too hard to hit"

 

If the majority of the shooters want 10-10-4+, that is what the stage writer will do. If most of the club wants something different, make that known to the stage writer and stand up to the few that complain by letting them know this is a unified club decision to have more interesting stages. Don't leave your stage writer hanging out there alone to take the heat.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

For what it's worth, it is best to avoid an odd number of shotgun shells, like 5, in the stage. Particularly if you shoot anywhere Ida Mae Holliday shoots. She absolutely hates stages with 5 shotgun shells. She thinks it gives an advantage to '97 shooters. I don't shoot fast enough to be concerned about it, but that is what she says, and she is usually correct.

 

As far as 10, 10, 4 is concerned, I guess i am lucky and there are still plenty of matches in these parts that throw in the occasional stage with 9 rifle or 6 shotgun, or 10, 10, 4 but you shoot them in any order you want.

[Wyatt]

9 in the rifle?

 

.........ya trying ta give half the shooters a MSV

 

Around here we mix things up.

 

Offer ta write some stages......bettin they will say YES

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Howdy

 

For what it's worth, it is best to avoid an odd number of shotgun shells, like 5, in the stage. Particularly if you shoot anywhere Ida Mae Holliday shoots. She absolutely hates stages with 5 shotgun shells. She thinks it gives an advantage to '97 shooters. I don't shoot fast enough to be concerned about it, but that is what she says, and she is usually correct.

 

As far as 10, 10, 4 is concerned, I guess i am lucky and there are still plenty of matches in these parts that throw in the occasional stage with 9 rifle or 6 shotgun, or 10, 10, 4 but you shoot them in any order you want.

 

Driftwood, as always, speaks the truth. At the various clubs here in New England you often see a 9 rifle, sometimes with a 1 shot reload, sometimes not, as well as a few other things to "mix it up." There is even one club that includes a shot or 2 from a single shot rifle on one stage in the match. Folks like that.

 

I will take "issue" with the oft spoken idea that an odd number of shells gives an advantage to 97 shooters. Given how the rules of our game require us to use them as if they were single barrel shotguns, I don't see how this is the case. I could jusst as easily argue that a stage with only 2 shotgun targets, or one where its 2 here and 2 there split by something else gives an unfair advantage to SxS shooters.

 

But, all of that being said, here are some things I'd enjoy seeing at a match sometime. Assume ALL of these things are "after the beep"

 

1. A full reload of 1 pistol

2. Using a knife to cut something between guns

3. Picking up and throwing a "stick of dynamite" through the window of a prop before going through the door to start shooting. If it doesn't go through the window, it counts as a "miss." (Or, if you wanna be mean, an SDQ cuz you have been "blown up." Just kidding on this one)

4. A "long distance" shot with the rifle. Could be the last of the rifle string, or a reload.

5. Adding a 5th gun to a stage. The most logical, I think, would be to add a "rifle caliber" repeater, as I'd guess that's the most likely to be owned by most partds. How many of us have a Win 94 or a .30-30 Marlin for example?

6. Shooting an arrow at something.

7. A stage where all targets are knockdowns. (Misses/falures to fall may or may not be cleaned up with the shotgun)

 

Any one of these could be put on just one stage of a 6 stage shoot. If they prove popular, they could all be used, spread over a match. I am sure there are a LOT more interesting things that could be added to give us a little variety. Given how so many of us seem to be always saying, "I wish there was more than just 10-10-4 all the time" I don't see why these, and I am sure many other things, could not be tried.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Driftwood, as always, speaks the truth. At the various clubs here in New England you often see a 9 rifle, sometimes with a 1 shot reload, sometimes not, as well as a few other things to "mix it up." There is even one club that includes a shot or 2 from a single shot rifle on one stage in the match. Folks like that.

 

I will take "issue" with the oft spoken idea that an odd number of shells gives an advantage to 97 shooters. Given how the rules of our game require us to use them as if they were single barrel shotguns, I don't see how this is the case. I could jusst as easily argue that a stage with only 2 shotgun targets, or one where its 2 here and 2 there split by something else gives an unfair advantage to SxS shooters.

 

But, all of that being said, here are some things I'd enjoy seeing at a match sometime. Assume ALL of these things are "after the beep"

 

1. A full reload of 1 pistol

2. Using a knife to cut something between guns

3. Picking up and throwing a "stick of dynamite" through the window of a prop before going through the door to start shooting. If it doesn't go through the window, it counts as a "miss." (Or, if you wanna be mean, an SDQ cuz you have been "blown up." Just kidding on this one)

4. A "long distance" shot with the rifle. Could be the last of the rifle string, or a reload.

5. Adding a 5th gun to a stage. The most logical, I think, would be to add a "rifle caliber" repeater, as I'd guess that's the most likely to be owned by most partds. How many of us have a Win 94 or a .30-30 Marlin for example?

6. Shooting an arrow at something.

7. A stage where all targets are knockdowns. (Misses/falures to fall may or may not be cleaned up with the shotgun)

 

Any one of these could be put on just one stage of a 6 stage shoot. If they prove popular, they could all be used, spread over a match. I am sure there are a LOT more interesting things that could be added to give us a little variety. Given how so many of us seem to be always saying, "I wish there was more than just 10-10-4 all the time" I don't see why these, and I am sure many other things, could not be tried.

"If they prove popular"...dude! Where have you been?????

 

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

 

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

Driftwood, as always, speaks the truth. At the various clubs here in New England you often see a 9 rifle, sometimes with a 1 shot reload, sometimes not, as well as a few other things to "mix it up." There is even one club that includes a shot or 2 from a single shot rifle on one stage in the match. Folks like that.

 

I will take "issue" with the oft spoken idea that an odd number of shells gives an advantage to 97 shooters. Given how the rules of our game require us to use them as if they were single barrel shotguns, I don't see how this is the case. I could jusst as easily argue that a stage with only 2 shotgun targets, or one where its 2 here and 2 there split by something else gives an unfair advantage to SxS shooters.

 

But, all of that being said, here are some things I'd enjoy seeing at a match sometime. Assume ALL of these things are "after the beep"

 

1. A full reload of 1 pistol

2. Using a knife to cut something between guns

3. Picking up and throwing a "stick of dynamite" through the window of a prop before going through the door to start shooting. If it doesn't go through the window, it counts as a "miss." (Or, if you wanna be mean, an SDQ cuz you have been "blown up." Just kidding on this one)

4. A "long distance" shot with the rifle. Could be the last of the rifle string, or a reload.

5. Adding a 5th gun to a stage. The most logical, I think, would be to add a "rifle caliber" repeater, as I'd guess that's the most likely to be owned by most partds. How many of us have a Win 94 or a .30-30 Marlin for example?

6. Shooting an arrow at something.

7. A stage where all targets are knockdowns. (Misses/falures to fall may or may not be cleaned up with the shotgun)

 

Any one of these could be put on just one stage of a 6 stage shoot. If they prove popular, they could all be used, spread over a match. I am sure there are a LOT more interesting things that could be added to give us a little variety. Given how so many of us seem to be always saying, "I wish there was more than just 10-10-4 all the time" I don't see why these, and I am sure many other things, could not be tried.

Become a match Director and let us know how well your proposals prove to be popular, we have a club here that does what your talking about and they average 8 shooters a month, I agree 10-10-4 gets stale but better ways to add variety that chasing people off.

 

KK

[Grizzly Dave]

I shoot two clubs regular every month. Both encourage shooters to write stages, it helps keep things fresh.

 

I know some folks don't like starting lines, to me it just adds fun, and give folks a chance to have a laugh and make the stage their own as they say, or alter the starting line.

 

There are lots of ways to make an average of 10-10-4 interesting by varying number and placement of targets, and sequences. Personally I like a rifle reload now and then, but wouldn't want one on every stage. Staging shotgun ammo in a box or bag on a table is also a way to add some spice now and then.

 

I guess I'm just lucky, the matches I've been to have done a great job at writing fun and interesting stages.

[Boon Doggle]

Hey Phantom,

 

How about a stage where you have to chase a longhorn away from your rifle targets. Oh, never mind, you already did that one.

Sure wish I'd have had a camera.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Folks,

 

I just attended an annual match, Heldorado Returns, in Ukiah. All counts were 10-10 and the SG varied, except for two all (16+) SG stages. What you did with the 10th round was very creative. The scenarios required a lot of concentration and I only know of one person who shot one sub 20 second stage. At least you knew there would be no MSVs for overloading the rifle or revolver. I found it much fun.

 

This tells me that 10-10-x+ doesn't have to be dull.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Targets like the Texas Star and that awesome whirley thingy make for some spice in a match...a lot can still be done with a 10-10-4+ to keep it quite fun and interesting...

 

GG

[Charlie Whiskers]

We've done a 20 for 15 stage a time or two...plus 4+ shotgun.Using the Texas Star and a 10 plate knockdown rack with a dump target as well as 4 shotgun targets.Shooter has 20 (10-10) rounds to clean the star and plate rack.Any ammo left after cleaning both goes on the dump target.Only misses are any plates left or misses on the dump target if all plates are down.

[Matthew Duncan]

You know the drill, 6 stages, 10 rifle, 10 pistol 4 + shotgun. No surprises, no reloads hardly any variance from this...

 

 

Whadya''ll think?

 

Rye (I'll go hide now)

Boring

[Sage Creek Gus SASS #64320]

Targets like the Texas Star and that awesome whirley thingy make for some spice in a match...a lot can still be done with a 10-10-4+ to keep it quite fun and interesting...

 

GG

My Whirling Dervish does add spice to a match but you can add a lot of variation with reloads etc.

 

I like to put a lot of variations into a stage containing the Texas Star to make it more interesting. Here are some examples:

 

1. Put a wooden box below the Texas Star. Give a bonus for any targets dropped into the box.

 

2. Put a claybird on the ground below the star. Penalty for breaking the claybird.

 

3. Give a bonus for any targets off the Texas Star that touch each other.

 

4. Attach a weight to one of the arms of the Texas Star so it is out of balance. Put a different colored target on that arm and the weight will cause that target to be at the bottom. Require that that target be shot off first. This give the star much more action.

 

5. If you really want to live dangerously place a sheet of plywood in front of the Texas Star on legs so you can only see the bottom half of the Texas Star.

 

These don't add anything to the resetting time but do make it more fun.

 

It's interesting that a few years ago our shooters thought the Texas Star was pretty hard. But after shooting my other moving targets like the Polish Plate Rack and the Whirling Dervish the Texas Star is considered pretty easy and almost all our shooters clean it with no problem.

 

In 2010 I held a special match on the 5th Saturday of July. It was nothing but all my different contraptions and special set ups. There are some shooters who had asked for this because they enjoy them. I didn't expect a very large turnout because I had always been told most shooters want big, close, stationary targets. I had three Texas Stars, my PPR target, my moving target and some others.

 

I was really suprised to have one of our largest turnouts for the match - 24 shooters.

 

I might do it again now that I have the Whirling Dervish going.

 

You can see what the stages were all about at this link:

 

http://www.bigforkbuscaderos.com/2010/july/julyContraptionStages.html

 

Sage Creek Gus

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

I am always amazed when folks reference a non issue as the problem.

If you are bored with a 10 -10 and 4 loading.

Changing the load to 8 - 5 and 6 is not the method to reignite a spark.

 

Frankly, standing at the loading table and loading 8 rounds into my rifle instead of 10 doesn't excite me, it just tells me that I am going to have 20% LESS fun with the rifle.

Only using a single pistol on a stage diminishes my fun by 50%.

 

It is never about the round counts - it is what you do with those round counts.

 

And lastly don't confuse different with better - the two terms are not interchangable.

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

I am always amazed when folks reference a non issue as the problem.

If you are bored with a 10 -10 and 4 loading.

Changing the load to 8 - 5 and 6 is not the method to reignite a spark.

 

Frankly, standing at the loading table and loading 8 rounds into my rifle instead of 10 doesn't excite me, it just tells me that I am going to have 20% LESS fun with the rifle.

Only using a single pistol on a stage diminishes my fun by 50%.

 

It is never about the round counts - it is what you do with those round counts.

 

And lastly don't confuse different with better - the two terms are not interchangable.

 

+ 1 Creeker must be my brother from another mother lol

 

there is so much you can do with 10-10-4 or 10-9-4 or whatever the round count is

 

in a six stage match that I write you never start a stage the same way,different sequences of course, the shotgun might be split two here two there or split pistols on 1 stage,maybe 2 shotgun on 1 stage and 6 on another, always some movement but not a running contest.keeping the stages fun but interesting

 

having to completely load a gun on clock is boring, a snooze fest

 

 

AO

[Tom Bullweed]

Several things done in NC/SC to make 10-10-4+ more interesting or challenging:

- drop shot shells into a box with a lid, shake them up and start the stage with the closed box on table

- six targets shot in a 1on1, 2on2, etc. sweep with rifle and pistol (This requires shooters choice of one reload, any gun)

- one stand and deliver, petal-to-the-metal stage in a six-stage match

- split pistols (sorry gunfighters)

- Your choice on round 10 on rifle: close up/no bonus, 50-yard 10" square with a 5-second bonus, miss not counted (I made that one up)

- all rounds fired from an outhouse or a bathtub

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

A solution looking for a problem.

[Anvil Al #59168]

I am always amazed when folks reference a non issue as the problem.

If you are bored with a 10 -10 and 4 loading.

Changing the load to 8 - 5 and 6 is not the method to reignite a spark.

 

Frankly, standing at the loading table and loading 8 rounds into my rifle instead of 10 doesn't excite me, it just tells me that I am going to have 20% LESS fun with the rifle.

Only using a single pistol on a stage diminishes my fun by 50%.

 

It is never about the round counts - it is what you do with those round counts.

 

And lastly don't confuse different with better - the two terms are not interchangable.

 

 

Another +1

 

If you are bored with the stage writing around you. YOU write them for awhile. See how it goes.

 

We had a 6 SG stage today. Also had a 8 round all SG run and gun stage with a bird at the end.

stage writers put in rifle reloads all the time around here.

8-9 in the rifle is not new and see it a fair amount. Again. Seen that today also.

 

Complete pistol reload on the clock.? No thanks. The stage would take forever to get through.

How boring is that.

[Ozarks Jim SASS #69618]

I hear a lot about adding “variety” to our sport. It makes me wonder why all the most popular sports like baseball, football, golf, etc. don’t feel the need to add variety. Imagine if they decided to change to 4 strikes to make an out? Moved the mound farther back to give the fair hitters a bigger chance to hit as well as the good hitters. While golf courses are all different, the game is always the same.

 

Our main matches are the time to see just how good you are at our sport. Side matches and open range times are the times to do the variety thing. Just like the majors sports have all kinds of contests to add variety, the game is the game. While I agree with varying round counts, split pistols, reloads, etc. I think sometimes we add so many things just to change things up, that we get away from what our sport was designed for, simulating gun fights in the old west.

[Dang It Dan 13202]

- drop shot shells into a box with a lid, shake them up and start the stage with the closed box on table

 

If you do this around here, I will personally shoot you in the foot.......no I'm not kidding.

 

It's a long story.......not worth getting into right now.

 

[Cypress Sun]

 

- drop shot shells into a box with a lid, shake them up and start the stage with the closed box on table

 

If you do this around here, I will personally shoot you in the foot.......no I'm not kidding.

 

It's a long story.......not worth getting into right now.

 

 

 

 

I've had to do this on a stage at a state match. The shells were shaken up while toting the box to another location. The person that thought of that stage should have been shot in the foot. As chance would have it, he got the box back later as a souvenier. Not gonna mention any names.

 

CS

 

Edit, it was a nice, well made heavy box.

[grizzly killer ,sass life 14516]

when i ran the zanesville shoot i had one stage where the shooter had to blow up 2 balloons and tack them to a post about 10 feet down range. the day was kind of windy and the balloons would move a bit. had a major gunfighter shooter (not going to name names, but he was the national gunfighter champion at the time) complain that the balloons were moving and therefore too hard to hit and refused to play by the stage description ,and of course all his friends started complaining that the balloons were moving (10 feet away) and could not hit them. i ended up rewriting the stage for him and his friends to get him to stop complaining. it should be said here that nobody else that shot the stage complained (i believe the majority had FUN with it) we used to have a lot of 'action' (moving, shells in a pan,bag,box) type stuff when i ran it. some people complained and they always will no matter where they are, others will "play the game" and have fun with it. just my 2 cents worth

[VICIOUS, SASS#8014]

HOWDY; you can not put any actions but shooting into a stage. The howling and ----- --- ---- ,well you get it.

[Blue Wolf , SASS# 29424L]

I don't get bored by 10-10- 4+. I get bored with target placement and shooting order. This equals, no memory contest and no maximum distance targets.

 

Try a stage with 10 pistol targets, 8 rifle targets, 4 knockdowns and say shooters choice shoot each target once. Rifle loaded with ten rounds, pistols 5 rounds each and 4 + shotgun. No double taps. Targets placed at random distance from 5 to 20 yds. not in a straight line. No description on which targets are which shooters choice.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

10-10-4+ = Boring.

 

Stated by those that seem to want to enter DUMB LUCK into the game.

 

Great...

[VICIOUS, SASS#8014]

HOWDY, If it is about having fun with friends, shooting guns, chilling and forgetting all the weeks woes, a bit of luck can be OK.

[Two Spurs]

Hey Rye,

 

To me, 10-10-4 is just a number. While it IS nice to mix up the round count to some degree (especially shotgun) I get the feeling that when someone mentions lack of variety it's not round count as much as it is the number of targets, placement of targets, type of targets, sequencing... and varied combinations of all the above.

 

When I think of just the rifle alone (for 10 rounds) :

 

10 plates- sweeps: left to right, right to left, shooters choice, 5,4,3,2,1 6,7,8,9,10. (have plates 5 and 6 a different shape or color) Maybe 1,2,3,4,5,10,9,8,7,6. (targets 1 and 10 a different shape or color) Stick 5 targets on the left side of the stage and 5 on the right- while shooting from the middle of the stage.

 

2 plates- 5 on each, alternate, double tap alternate, triple tap each one then double tap each one. Close together, spread them apart, one by a fence post, "no-hit" targets close to them, different shapes, etc.

 

3 plates- 2-1-2 twice, 2-2-1, twice (scramble the order, etc.) Triple tap plus a bonus on the 10th round (vary the triple tap sequence) Same Nevada sweep twice, continuous sweep, on and on.............

 

4 plates- progressive sweep: 1,2,2,3,3,3,4,4,4,4 or variables. Single/Double continuous sweep (Color coded is not only helpful but a very nice change of pace- set in the following order: red, blue, red, blue) 1 on red, 2 on blue, 1 on red, 2 on blue, 1 on red, 2 on blue, 1 on red.

 

5 plates- two Nevada sweeps in the following order: 1,2,3,2,1 then 5,4,3,4,5 with targets 1 and 5 (the starting points for each Nevada) blue color while the rest are white- you get the idea.

***How about making an "X" with 2 opposing diagonal Nevada sweeps? 2 low targets in front, 2 tall targets in the back and one mid-high target in the middle (to look like a 5 on the dice) We did this at our annual and folks loved it.

***Take that same "X" target placement and have the 2 bottom plates blue, the 2 top plates red, and the middle plate red on the top half, blue on the bottom. One red Nevada sweep, one blue Nevada sweep for 10 rounds.

 

etc, etc, etc........ Toss in pistols with the same idea, toss in split and/or extra shotgun... My goodness this could go on forever.

 

Oh- Been shooting at the same swinger or set of bells on the same stage for a year because they're hard to move? it's worth the effort to simply move them to another stage.

 

Most importantly this can be accomplished without a shooter having brain stress or P-traps.

Stage writing to me is a blast. Changing up the visual components of the stage (including the props) goes a long way in keeping things fresh.

 

 

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

having to completely load a gun on clock is boring, a snooze festAO

Yep! I go to shoot, loading is just something I have to do in order to be able to shoot. I like mixing it up by giving the shooter choices, like which order the guns are shot in, or where you start, or both. Today we shot a match I wrote and on one stage you could start with any gun, AND you could start behind any one of the three tables. It came down to choosing between retracing your steps, or putting the shotgun down and picking it up an extra time. It was fun to watch folks 'game' it out. On another stage the four shotgun targets wre slanted away from the shooter with no minimum number to fire. Quite a few pards were able to knockdown four targets with two shots. Some, like me, saw two falling, muscle memory kicked in and we loaded two more even though we had only fired once. DOH!

[Rye Miles #13621]

Let me say this, first of all I do write stages, mostly for our Wed. shoot @ Firelands. We do try different stuff, reloads, clay birds, shooting empty black powder cans and bonus targets. Everyone enjoys this kind of stuff. I just wish a wee bit of it could filter into the regular monthly matches at not only our club but all the clubs. I have nothing against 10-10-4+ but it seems to be the "norm" now. Hey I like to shoot no matter what so get off my case about trying to write stages and I'm complaining and yada yada yada............Come to a Wed. match and see for yourself.

 

Rye

[Anvil Al #59168]

Let me say this, first of all I do write stages, mostly for our Wed. shoot @ Firelands. We do try different stuff, reloads, clay birds, shooting empty black powder cans and bonus targets. Everyone enjoys this kind of stuff. I just wish a wee bit of it could filter into the regular monthly matches at not only our club but all the clubs. I have nothing against 10-10-4+ but it seems to be the "norm" now. Hey I like to shoot no matter what so get off my case about trying to write stages and I'm complaining and yada yada yada............Come to a Wed. match and see for yourself.

 

Rye

 

Why just write them for the Wed match??

 

Ask to write them for the regular monthly.

[Rye Miles #13621]

Why just write them for the Wed match??

 

Ask to write them for the regular monthly.

 

I have but at a monthly match there are twice as many shooters and some of this "fancy" stuff takes time. Folks wanna shoot and get home at a decent hour.

Rye