10-10-4+

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

HOWDY, If it is about having fun with friends, shooting guns, chilling and forgetting all the weeks woes, a bit of luck can be OK.

Tell ya what, you can do that without being part of a SASS club.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

I think everyone should have to shoot Rugers with the transfer bars still in them, change the rules to allow six in a pistol and shoot 10, 12, 4.

[Cowboy Junky]

I personally like that SASS has progressed from things that don't relate to shooting that are done on the clock. I think the stigma of us running around in "costumes" shooting wax bullets off toy horses and roping fake cattle have kept SASS from being taken as a serious shooting sport and has kept many shooter's from crossing over.

 

IMO if the stages are done well they can be fun for everyone from the novice to the hardcore veteran. I hate to see a shooter doing well in a match and lose it because they are not a proficient axe thrower, can't toss a stick of dynamite in a bucket or they drew a Club instead of a Heart. Other shooting disciplines have branched off from SASS trying these "fun" things and being "less" about shooting and they haven't really gained any steam.

 

So again if you balance it out I really think the stages can be fun for everyone........10-10-4 is the "norm" I guess but we vary from that all the time.

[Colt McCloud, SASS #65003L]

I joined up with the Wolverine Rangers in Michigan this year as 3-4 clubs are just as close as some here in Ontario. I chose to go where the matches are well run and enjoyable. Variety is great and so far have had lots of fun with 10-10-4. Throw that in with the odd rifle reload for a bonus target, some stages with 6 shotgun and the occasional all shotgun stage and there is plenty of variety. 10-10-4 can be plenty interesting with lots of surprizes and we are fortunate enough in this area to have some gents that have been playing this game since it started and where smart enough to evolve along with some fairly new MD's that do a great job. I have MD'd at my home club for more than a couple of years and have borrowed ideas from many a great event to try and keep it enjoyable for all. I have been around long enough to have seen some changes in the game and I like the way it is just fine. Roping cattle and throwing knives is fine off the clock but we all want to see how we can do with shooting. If your not happy with what's going on take over the reins and see how it goes for ya!!

[Guest Cinch, SASS#29433]

 

I hear a lot about adding “variety” to our sport. It makes me wonder why all the most popular sports like baseball, football, golf, etc. don’t feel the need to add variety. Imagine if they decided to change to 4 strikes to make an out? Moved the mound farther back to give the fair hitters a bigger chance to hit as well as the good hitters. While golf courses are all different, the game is always the same.

 

Our main matches are the time to see just how good you are at our sport. Side matches and open range times are the times to do the variety thing. Just like the majors sports have all kinds of contests to add variety, the game is the game. While I agree with varying round counts, split pistols, reloads, etc. I think sometimes we add so many things just to change things up, that we get away from what our sport was designed for, simulating gun fights in the old west.

 

 

Don't compare CAS to other sports! In CAS the game is the same for everyone there is not an advanced or more experienced level. If it were baseball everyone would be hitting from a T and no 90 mph split finger, if it were bull riding it would be 250 pound men wearing a hockey helmet riding backward on a mutton.

 

CAS is its own game where the old west was the attraction. It's now morphed into a shooting competition where outdated clothing and work boots exist and hats with brims are worn to keep brass out of shirt collars. It is fun for me but sometimes I miss the bad ol'days too...

[Griff]

Two thoughts burbled up in reading this thread:

 

1 - some folks couldn't be pleased, even if ya hung 'em with a new rope. But the result would please the rest of us regardless!

 

2- imagination is something to be taken out and exercised from time to time, lest it whither and die,

[Blackey Cole]

Adding a pistol reload can be simple for some but gets complicated for others like gunfighter, frontiersman, etc. when you allow the reload is the problem . Frontiersman would have to charge the cylinder at the unloading table or cart then cap it when everyone else reloads. If a gunfighter has two loaded guns in hand how are they supposed to reload safely? Things to think about. Rifle reload is safer and easier.

[Anvil Al #59168]

I have but at a monthly match there are twice as many shooters and some of this "fancy" stuff takes time. Folks wanna shoot and get home at a decent hour.

Rye

 

 

Then YOU are saying it won't work??

 

Adding a rifle reload?? We do it all the time.

 

Adding a flyer??? Don't add any time to the stage if you set it up right.

 

6 SG on a stage?? Just make the rest of the stage fast. Time will work itself out.

 

But it was YOUR idea on this post. Now giving excuse why it won't work.

So just what is it you want?

[Badlands Bob #61228]

I think variety is the key to a successful match. I generally keep is down to one "trick" per stage. A trick being something out of the ordinary. If you load up the stage with too many tricks, people get confused, lost and end up with a P. I also like to vary them from running around stages to stand and deliver. Often you can make up trick target ,misses by reloading on the clock. That way they can still shoot it clean but the penalty is built into the reload time.

 

Get some different targets when you can afford them. People get tired to shooting at the same old targets every month. Buzzards, circles, coyotes diamonds, anything, Even rats. I love the rats. Keeping the stages interesting, fun and easy is the key.

 

I encourage guest stage writers. Captain Bill Burt wrote the stages for this month's match. It was very well received and everyone had a great time. Next month, Rolan Kraps has written the stages for the Cowboy vs. Zombie match. OK, that'll be interesting. One of our Buckarettes came to me yesterday and she wants to get the kids to write a match. I put her in charge and told her to have at it. I look forward to seeing what the kids come up with.

[Rye Miles #13621]

Then YOU are saying it won't work??

 

Adding a rifle reload?? We do it all the time.

 

Adding a flyer??? Don't add any time to the stage if you set it up right.

 

6 SG on a stage?? Just make the rest of the stage fast. Time will work itself out.

 

But it was YOUR idea on this post. Now giving excuse why it won't work.

So just what is it you want?

The reason for my post was that exact problem! It seems to me that people want things simple and don't like too many challenges which is why I posted this in the first place. Read carefully next time.....I said I do this all the time at our WED> shoot but the monthly shoots it's kind of discouraged because everyone thinks it takes too much time. For instance, for a popper we have to go out and reset the bird. I LIKE THE DIFFERENT STUFF BUT I DON'T THINK EVERYONE DOES!!! Understand now???

 

Rye

[Bad Hand]

You know, I try to go to every match I can. 20 sec? maybe for one gun. I shoot what the club/MD provides and in the 15 or so yrs I've been shooting I've only been to one bad match, and it wasn't because of stage design. Admittedly I'm not a top gun, but enjoy shooting with them, remember this is Cowboy Action SHOOTING.

[Jasper Leadspreader]

It has evolved from CAS to CSS(cowboy speed shooting). You can add more action without adding a lot of time so everyone can get home on time. If they are in such a rush to get home then maybe they shouldn't have come to the match. As far as target size and distance I think most of the targets should be farther than they usually are. A lot of people say that would discourage folks. If you want to hit them all you have to do is slow down and aim a little. The best shooters will still win, but it would make it (I think) more fun and challenging. But I am an oddball here. I feel if you are shooting a stage clean then you are shooting too slow. I believe in the ACTION part of CAS. Remember this is Cowboy ACTION Shooting.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

It has evolved from CAS to CSS(cowboy speed shooting). You can add more action without adding a lot of time so everyone can get home on time. If they are in such a rush to get home then maybe they shouldn't have come to the match. As far as target size and distance I think most of the targets should be farther than they usually are. A lot of people say that would discourage folks. If you want to hit them all you have to do is slow down and aim a little. The best shooters will still win, but it would make it (I think) more fun and challenging. But I am an oddball here. I feel if you are shooting a stage clean then you are shooting too slow. I believe in the ACTION part of CAS. Remember this is Cowboy ACTION Shooting.

Why mention the good shooters? It's not "them" that are of issue with smaller/farther targets...that's the problem...folks think it is.

 

It has to do with those that are in many cases older...shakier...physically less capable...etc, etc. It's the bottom of the packers...but then you have those that then say that it's a good thing to make them smaller/farther for these folks as it'll make them better shooters. Well then...I guess it's not about just having fun, but rather it's about instructing these folks to be better shooters.

 

Cowboy Action Shooting isn't Fast Draw...that's why the ACTION is in the name.

 

Phantom

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Why mention the good shooters? It's not "them" that are of issue with smaller/farther targets...that's the problem...folks think it is.

 

It has to do with those that are in many cases older...shakier...physically less capable...etc, etc. It's the bottom of the packers...but then you have those that then say that it's a good thing to make them smaller/farther for these folks as it'll make them better shooters. Well then...I guess it's not about just having fun, but rather it's about instructing these folks to be better shooters.

 

Cowboy Action Shooting isn't Fast Draw...that's why the ACTION is in the name.

 

Phantom

 

Amen....shake your booty

 

GG ~

[Jasper Leadspreader]

Phantom, I either missed something from your post or you missed something from mine. I don't get your point.

[Badlands Bob #61228]

Bottom line is, you've got to do what the shooters want. I've seen clubs that go to small and far away. They dry up pretty fast. The clubs that use big and close targets have the best turnouts and continue to grow. Listen to your shooters and watch your attendance levels. Don't let one or two very vocal people steer you down the wrong path.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I think SASS/CAS has evolved into a game/sport where a person shooting any category, can basically shoot their individual optimum performance levels and still realize that those targets are still VERY missable.

 

The goodness in which the manner most clubs are setting up their stages, particularly target sizes and distances, is allowing shooters to run 'Their' game.....not someone else game.

 

In other words, stage settings are allowing your 30 second shooters to be competitive with other 30 second shooters. The reality of it all is that ALL of us have an optimum performance level whether it be a 15 second blitz kid from Michigan or Kentucky or a 40 second maticulous bulls eye shooter from Georgia. The stages and targets scenerios have evolved to allow the shooter to dictate how they want to spend their day.

 

The harm to SASS/CAS comes when others try to interject their plan to 'slow' folks down to the speeds that 'They' think should be used to shoot a stage.

 

Don't change the game just because Deuce, Bud, Spence, Snake, Campo, Dan, Stan, etc.....can run a 10-10-4 WITH 2 movements in 12 seconds. And targets were still challenging within their great skill levels.

 

 

..........Widder

[Uno Mas SASS #80082]

Seem to remember the SASS guidebooks recommend a match average of less than 10 rifle shots per stage. However, I can't find the applicable paragraph -- or perhaps, the Sarsaparilla had "turned" again...

 

Most don't mind 8 - 9 rifle shots on a stage: liking new sweeps. However, those "memory" stages...

 

[Edit:] Haw! I found it. In the SASS Match Directors Guide Version H, Jan 2003.

 

11. It is recommended stages be designed to

contain no more than an average of 8-9 ri-

fle (not 10), 10 pistol, and 4 to 6 (only)

shotgun rounds per engagement. Design-

ing a match that is well rounded in terms

of round expenditure and firearm use is

advised.

[Captain Bill Burt]

Bottom line is, you've got to do what the shooters want. I've seen clubs that go to small and far away. They dry up pretty fast. The clubs that use big and close targets have the best turnouts and continue to grow. Listen to your shooters and watch your attendance levels. Don't let one or two very vocal people steer you down the wrong path.

There are 'pards' out there that will complain if you hang them with a new rope. Unless you tailor your match to their very limited comfort zone they can be very vocal. As Bob said you need to give the majority what they want. Bob frequently gives us six shotgun stages, flyers, rats, knockdowns, snakes all kinds of fun stuff. Yes there are one or two who piss and moan, but the vast majority of us really enjoy it.

[Krazy Kajun]

Piss....moan.....damn rats! They are Evil Bob's ministers of change and pain.... but don't we smile when we go to the firing line and see them. Just like them dad burn chickens at the Badlands Bar 3 at CAC.

 

Kajun

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

We had a 5 on 3 swinger Nevada sweep with the sg yestiddy. It was equal cuz all 5 of us was shootin' doubles. The two ole coots shootin' hammer doubles may have been at a slight disadvantage.

 

We had a one round pistol reload off the clock after shooting one stage. The line was also after stage and off the clock. It was John Wayne's rather lengthy spiel about the "rat writ writ for a rat" from True Grit. Then you tried to shoot a rat size steel rat off a RR tie. Not easy but 2 of us nailed it.

 

All the stages had JW lines. After all, it was The Duke's birthday.

[Anvil Al #59168]

The reason for my post was that exact problem! It seems to me that people want things simple and don't like too many challenges which is why I posted this in the first place. Read carefully next time.....I said I do this all the time at our WED> shoot but the monthly shoots it's kind of discouraged because everyone thinks it takes too much time. For instance, for a popper we have to go out and reset the bird. I LIKE THE DIFFERENT STUFF BUT I DON'T THINK EVERYONE DOES!!! Understand now???

 

Rye

 

 

Yes. I understand. You can not be made happy. And have an excuse for why you can not be.

 

I think some of that CAN be added in AND keep things running fast and smooth.

It's all in how you set it up.

 

Have even shot flyers and movers at EOT both times I was there.

They made it work.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

The reason for my post was that exact problem! It seems to me that people want things simple and don't like too many challenges which is why I posted this in the first place. Read carefully next time.....I said I do this all the time at our WED> shoot but the monthly shoots it's kind of discouraged because everyone thinks it takes too much time. For instance, for a popper we have to go out and reset the bird. I LIKE THE DIFFERENT STUFF BUT I DON'T THINK EVERYONE DOES!!! Understand now???

 

Rye

WEDNESDAY shoot???

 

How many folks ya got going to that???

[Cheatin' Chamberlin]

I write a lot of stages for my local club. I mix it up all the time. Different number of props and movement. Also different round counts and reloads (rarely). Flying targets for the shotgun. You have to mix it up or it will go STALE. Not all stages will get the mix because of time restraints but aleast two of them will.

[Broncho Billy Aronson]

As someone relatively new to the sport I like a bit of sameness as I'm still trying to get my timing down. Don't bother me a bit. We only shoot 6 stages at my club and they mix it up enough and throw in the 10-10-4 and it makes me quite comfortable

[J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526]

.

4. A "long distance" shot with the rifle. Could be the last of the rifle string, or a reload. --

 

I wrote a stage for one of our shoots last year with a 43 yard rifle shot, first shot from rifle was at a clay bird. 9 out of 63 shooters hit the bird. I did not hear one complaint, only heard compliments from shooters that they liked the match.

 

7. A stage where all targets are knockdowns. (Misses/falures to fall may or may not be cleaned up with the shotgun) --

We have had a stage with 15 -20 knockdowns and clay bird targets at three annual shoots; many shooters really enjoyed shooting "the knockdown stage" and asked for us to have another one like it in our next annual shoot. There were many different strategies as to the best way to shoot the stage.

There was no target shooting order; each shooter had to come up with a plan that fit their skills. Last June, one rather fast shooter told me that he changed his plan 4 times while watching other shooters shoot the stage.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

After all these years...seems that folks still don't know what CASer's like and don't like...what works for a successful match/club.

 

Wow...

[Guest S Creek]

Match directors at successful clubs have no problem making 10-10-4+ fun and interesting for most shooters.

 

Target size and distance certainly enters into how the 10-10-4+ works for everyone. Here in Canada distance has been regulated by the feds to be no steel targets shot closer than 10 metres (about 11 yards).

 

We of course try to use large targets.

 

New people coming into the shooting sports at three clubs that I am involved with want to shoot at targets that are close. These are not CAS shooters but people who are just getting into firearms or are involved or plan to be with IPSC.

 

How do we know? Because two of the clubs are indoor and have retractable targets. One range is 20 metres with 14 shooting ports with eight retractables and the other is 50 metres with 16 ports and all have retractables. Video cameras and personal observation show that most shooters run the retractable down to about 10-12 metres. The club with with only eight retractables on the 14 port range has a sign in board to get on the retractables. There are target holders at the backstop and we can easily call the line for a target change but they would rather wait until a port opens. The new demographics

 

The outdoor club has had the same experience. This handgun range is 50 metres and has been in place for 50+ years. There are plans to install an interum berm system giving the range a 12-15 metre 6 port and a 25 metre 6 port all shot from the enclosed common firing line. The space behind this berm system will be a proposed action range. Most shooters are placing our wood target stands at 10 to 15 metres and not using the target structure at 50.

 

Sounds good and we have the approval but there is a small but vocal outcry about getting rid of the 50 metre range. The ones complaining don't even shoot handguns. This is a multi discipline club with trap, skeet, five stand,rifle, handgun and archery.

 

There are a lot of trap shooters.

 

Joke

 

 

I applied to join a trap club once and was blackballed. They found out my parents were married.

 

Joke told to me by an avid trap shooter.

 

 

 

Stoney Creek SASS4952

TG Regulator

WB RO

 

 

[Rock Hound]

Let me say this, first of all I do write stages, mostly for our Wed. shoot @ Firelands. We do try different stuff, reloads, clay birds, shooting empty black powder cans and bonus targets. Everyone enjoys this kind of stuff. I just wish a wee bit of it could filter into the regular monthly matches at not only our club but all the clubs. I have nothing against 10-10-4+ but it seems to be the "norm" now. Hey I like to shoot no matter what so get off my case about trying to write stages and I'm complaining and yada yada yada............Come to a Wed. match and see for yourself.

 

Rye

I wish I would have been able to make it to the Wednesday shoots (d*mn work) and the 5th Sunday shoots happen far too infrequently. I loved the no categories and the mixing things up, the shotgun popper targets were my favorites as it really mixed things up. 10-10-4+ can get monotonous. The team Ma/Pa stage is one of the few stages I can remember specifically, and that is because it was so different. I would love to see people talk along the lines of "you only missed 4 targets on stage 3, damn that's good, that stage was hard" like how they talk about shooters having a really quick stage time.

 

Quite frankly, other than a rough measure of my getting better with my guns, I could care less about my time and placement; I'm just out there for a good time.

[Captain Bill Burt]

Fast shooters are there to have a good time too, they just enjoy a different aspect of the game than some pards. That should be OK.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

This years annual at Valdosta, every stage was designed for shooters choice. Shooter could start with any firearms, except rifle could not be last. Each stage shooter was given instructions on how many hits on targets, but given free choice in what order he wanted to shoot to accomplish this. Also had different positions to shoot from, shooters choice from were he wanted to engage targets from. Also had shooters choice on placement of longuns and were he wanted to start from. We had lines to say, and props to use, non which hindered the shooter. From what the feedback was, it was very positive and many impressed it was the best annual they had shot in a long time. MT

[Rock Hound]

Fast shooters are there to have a good time too, they just enjoy a different aspect of the game than some pards. That should be OK.

And it is OK; however, the preponderance of stages are designed for fast shooters shooting fast. A stage or two a match designed for something esle shouldn't wreck their fun.

[Rye Miles #13621]

And it is OK; however, the preponderance of stages are designed for fast shooters shooting fast. A stage or two a match designed for something esle shouldn't wreck their fun.

You are exactly right Rock, I find the fast shooters enjoy a different stage every now and then just like everyone else.

 

Rye

[Pit Bull Tex]

I don't really care if it was 10-10-and 4.If could be 20-20 and 8.They could write P traps in every stage.I love to watch the fastest shooters shoot.I am not the brightest bulb on the tree or the fastest horse on the track.If the stage writer puts it in a stage then I will try to shoot it.Our stage writers put in a lot of time to write the stages and I want to say thank you to them.I shoot with some very fast shooters and if you put the targets way out they would still shoot them fast and hit them.Smaller and far away targets don't slow down the fast shooter,they slow shooters down like me.Do I care,NO.This game is so much fun to me that ,no one can screw it up.The people and the shooting.WHAT MORE COULD YOU ASK FOR.

[Captain Bill Burt]

You are exactly right Rock, I find the fast shooters enjoy a different stage every now and then just like everyone else.

 

Rye

I like em all, fast is relative anyway. If it's a more difficult stage fast might be 20 seconds, easier it might be 16. I've noticed around here we have a couple of clubs that do exactly what you said, a preponderance of the stages are for fast shooters and the tops shooters are shooting six stages in the 90-110 second range. The other two clubs are a little more varied stage wise and top shooters are running six in 110-130 range. I like all of em! I meant no offense, I've just noticed that some shooters will say "I'm just in it for the fun" as if the fast shooters aren't there to have fun too.