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Bart Solo

Dry Fire At Loading Table

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I recently ran across the origins of the phrase "ignorance is bliss". It is:

 

"Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise."

 

Along that line of thinking one could say "Where arbitrariness reigns, common sense gives no purchase".

 

It is a sad and common state found when behavior and not outcome is codified.

 

Good to hear from you my friend.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

Get back out of that hole...BJT !

 

Now I got a good question for you (BJT). ^_^

 

Could the phrase 'Common Sense' be considered an oxymoron? :o

 

 

..........Widder

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Here's a potential problem with easing the hammer down.

 

I'm a relatively new shooter and used to softly lower the hammer on my Uberti '73 carbine before loading. It was several months before a TO noticed that I came to the firing line with the rifle in a half-cock position. Experimenting afterwards we found that if the trigger is released before the hammer is all the way down, the hammer will stop at half-cock. I'm hoping that almost all of the time I was holding the trigger back all the way until the hammer was completely down but I have no idea how many times I came to the firing line "half-cocked."

 

Now, at the loading table, prior to loading, I cycle the lever several times, place the rifle on the loading table pointed in a safe direction (not in a shooting position), and pull the trigger UNabated.

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Here's a potential problem with easing the hammer down.

 

I'm a relatively new shooter and used to softly lower the hammer on my Uberti '73 carbine before loading. It was several months before a TO noticed that I came to the firing line with the rifle in a half-cock position. Experimenting afterwards we found that if the trigger is released before the hammer is all the way down, the hammer will stop at half-cock. I'm hoping that almost all of the time I was holding the trigger back all the way until the hammer was completely down but I have no idea how many times I came to the firing line "half-cocked."

 

Now, at the loading table, prior to loading, I cycle the lever several times, place the rifle on the loading table pointed in a safe direction (not in a shooting position), and pull the trigger UNabated.

:) ...and this is straight from the ROIII ;)

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We are not concerned about what happens with an empty chamber, only a chamber with a live round.

 

If there is a live round in the chamber, we have three options:

 

1. We drop the hammer unimpeded in a safe direction, it goes off, MDQ.

 

2. We carelfully place the hammer at half cock. Probably no ill effects unless the notch should break, but it could, SDQ.

 

3. We gently rest the hammer in the fully down position. We have now created an audio impact indicator with leathal potential. If that mechanism is dropped there is a darn good chance for a discharge in an unknown direction

 

But the rules we have in place, encourage option 3, outlaw option 2 and discourage option 1. When I think of arbitrary, this example comes to mind.

 

 

Cheers,

BJT

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Here's a potential problem with easing the hammer down.

 

I'm a relatively new shooter and used to softly lower the hammer on my Uberti '73 carbine before loading. It was several months before a TO noticed that I came to the firing line with the rifle in a half-cock position. Experimenting afterwards we found that if the trigger is released before the hammer is all the way down, the hammer will stop at half-cock. I'm hoping that almost all of the time I was holding the trigger back all the way until the hammer was completely down but I have no idea how many times I came to the firing line "half-cocked."

 

Now, at the loading table, prior to loading, I cycle the lever several times, place the rifle on the loading table pointed in a safe direction (not in a shooting position), and pull the trigger UNabated.

 

Bought myself an SDQ for that exact thing a few years ago. I still ease the hammer down, 'cept now I do it correctly. ;)

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When I buy a gun and read the read, it almost always says 'do not dry-fire'. This has nothing to do with having the gun to a shoulder. Dryfiring is letting a hammer hit the firing pin in full force with an empty chamber in the same manner that it would deploy if the chamber were not empty.

Safety and disractraction to other cowboys at the laoding table would be the concerns.

(This is why I enjoy shooting, picking up brass and doign geenral work and leave the RO-ing to others.)

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Could the phrase 'Common Sense' be considered an oxymoron? :o

 

 

..........Widder

 

 

Dunnknow bout an oxymoron, but for a few on here they are definitely mutually exclusive terms :lol:

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Dry firing requires you to sight the gun. Dropping the hammer isn't dry firing unless you sight the firearm.

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No dry firing does NOT require any sighting at all whatsover. Neither does LIVE firing. Anytime you pull a trigger and the hammer falls and there is no discharge you have engaged in dry firing. Any time you pull the trigger and there IS a discharge you have engaged in live firing.

 

Well I slept good and PWB chimed in and I still am not sure what is what and which side of this debate is the correct one. He seemed to say that easing the hammer down is the preferable method so that is what I will continue to do.

 

Think about it. If by some freak circumstance you dry fire at the LT and there is a round in the chamber -- match DQ. ANY discharge, intentional or unintentional at the LT or ULT is an immediate MDQ. I am not willing to risk it. If you ease the hammer down and arrive at the firing line with a round under the hammer all ye risk is a SDQ, that is anyone even catches or calls it. You see it all the time with pistols. A pard will pull a pistol, pull the trigger and click. Obviously he/she did not index the cylinder correctly. Happens all the time, failure to adhere to loading and unloading procedures. Never seen it called.

 

All you folks saying that you drop the hammer un-impeded on the rifle: do you do the same with the pistols. I doubt it. Everyone I have ever observed cocks the hammer and then eases it down over the empty chamber. I know, I know Roogers don't need to be cocked to load. If ye are going to ease the pistol hammers down, why would you do it different with the rifle?

 

I am almost clear that PWB seems to be saying that both methods are acceptable at the LT. I cannot comprehend that. Dropping the hammer unimpeded is dry firing no matter the gun's position (even laying flat on the table) and dry firing is specifically outlawed. But I ain't gonna call it, not that I ever did.

 

BK, ye are wrong -- Pampa is a sheet hole of an oil field boom town since the 20's and always will be but it is home and might always be. Ye are right that I need to get out more and after Friday when I retire for good and forever the only thing impeding that will be the lightness of me wallet. Cya on down the trail.

 

Knock off all that illegal dry firing y'all. :ph34r:

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No dry firing does NOT require any sighting at all whatsover. Neither does LIVE firing. Anytime you pull a trigger and the hammer falls and there is no discharge you have engaged in dry firing. Any time you pull the trigger and there IS a discharge you have engaged in live firing.

 

Well I slept good and PWB chimed in and I still am not sure what is what and which side of this debate is the correct one. He seemed to say that easing the hammer down is the preferable method so that is what I will continue to do.

 

Think about it. If by some freak circumstance you dry fire at the LT and there is a round in the chamber -- match DQ. ANY discharge, intentional or unintentional at the LT or ULT is an immediate MDQ. I am not willing to risk it. If you ease the hammer down and arrive at the firing line with a round under the hammer all ye risk is a SDQ, that is anyone even catches or calls it. You see it all the time with pistols. A pard will pull a pistol, pull the trigger and click. Obviously he/she did not index the cylinder correctly. Happens all the time, failure to adhere to loading and unloading procedures. Never seen it called.

 

All you folks saying that you drop the hammer un-impeded on the rifle: do you do the same with the pistols. I doubt it. Everyone I have ever observed cocks the hammer and then eases it down over the empty chamber. I know, I know Roogers don't need to be cocked to load. If ye are going to ease the pistol hammers down, why would you do it different with the rifle?

 

I am almost clear that PWB seems to be saying that both methods are acceptable at the LT. I cannot comprehend that. Dropping the hammer unimpeded is dry firing no matter the gun's position (even laying flat on the table) and dry firing is specifically outlawed. But I ain't gonna call it, not that I ever did.

 

BK, ye are wrong -- Pampa is a sheet hole of an oil field boom town since the 20's and always will be but it is home and might always be. Ye are right that I need to get out more and after Friday when I retire for good and forever the only thing impeding that will be the lightness of me wallet. Cya on down the trail.

 

Knock off all that illegal dry firing y'all. :ph34r:

 

Illegal dry firing has been defined...

 

Learn to communicate better...U spell fine...but that's about it.

 

:wacko:

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No dry firing does NOT require any sighting at all whatsover. Neither does LIVE firing. Anytime you pull a trigger and the hammer falls and there is no discharge you have engaged in dry firing. Any time you pull the trigger and there IS a discharge you have engaged in live firing.

 

Well I slept good and PWB chimed in and I still am not sure what is what and which side of this debate is the correct one. He seemed to say that easing the hammer down is the preferable method so that is what I will continue to do.

 

Think about it. If by some freak circumstance you dry fire at the LT and there is a round in the chamber -- match DQ. ANY discharge, intentional or unintentional at the LT or ULT is an immediate MDQ. I am not willing to risk it. If you ease the hammer down and arrive at the firing line with a round under the hammer all ye risk is a SDQ, that is anyone even catches or calls it. You see it all the time with pistols. A pard will pull a pistol, pull the trigger and click. Obviously he/she did not index the cylinder correctly. Happens all the time, failure to adhere to loading and unloading procedures. Never seen it called.

 

All you folks saying that you drop the hammer un-impeded on the rifle: do you do the same with the pistols. I doubt it. Everyone I have ever observed cocks the hammer and then eases it down over the empty chamber. I know, I know Roogers don't need to be cocked to load. If ye are going to ease the pistol hammers down, why would you do it different with the rifle?

 

I am almost clear that PWB seems to be saying that both methods are acceptable at the LT. I cannot comprehend that. Dropping the hammer unimpeded is dry firing no matter the gun's position (even laying flat on the table) and dry firing is specifically outlawed. But I ain't gonna call it, not that I ever did.

 

BK, ye are wrong -- Pampa is a sheet hole of an oil field boom town since the 20's and always will be but it is home and might always be. Ye are right that I need to get out more and after Friday when I retire for good and forever the only thing impeding that will be the lightness of me wallet. Cya on down the trail.

 

Knock off all that illegal dry firing y'all. :ph34r:

When you are in a deep hole, don't dig!

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I am not in any hole. I contend my view is the correct one. Dry firing at the LT is illegal. Dropping the hammer unimpeded is dry firing. What is so hard to comprehend?

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Dry firing requires you to sight the gun. Dropping the hammer isn't dry firing unless you sight the firearm.

 

Inaccurate statement. For many in this game, shooting position has little to do with sites ;-)

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I am not in any hole. I contend my view is the correct one. Dry firing at the LT is illegal. Dropping the hammer unimpeded is dry firing. What is so hard to comprehend?

 

What's so hard to comprehend?

 

I don't know...most of us normal folks understand what's Legal and what is not legal dry firing in SASS.

 

Seriously...please...for god's sake, go get some professional help.

 

:wacko:

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...

I am almost clear that PWB seems to be saying that both methods are acceptable at the LT. I cannot comprehend that. Dropping the hammer unimpeded is dry firing no matter the gun's position (even laying flat on the table) and dry firing is specifically outlawed. But I ain't gonna call it, not that I ever did.

...

 

For the purposes of "making the call" at the LT, the RO1 "Glossary of Terms" previously quoted defines "dry firing" a bit differently.

Now...I'm NOT going to recommend 'dropping' the hammer vs. easing it down on ANY firearm...but the RULE requires that the firearm be brought "into a shooting position" in order to assess a SDQ.

 

FWIW - One of the most disconcerting things I've ever witnessed at the LT was a shooter using a Colt-style revolver who "loaded one/skipped one/loaded four"; brought the hammer to full cock; then DRY FIRED the revolver at the berm behind the LT. :o

 

Upon being warned of the consequences in event that he somehow miscounted/misindexed, he quit doing that.

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Pard,

 

That is not dry firing. The following is, from the ROI, "Dry firing at the loading table is not allowed and will result in a Stage Disqualification. Dry firing is allowed only at designated safe areas. Dry firing is defined as the act of bringing the gun into a shooting position, cocking the hammer, and pulling the trigger as if to cause the gun to fire normally."

 

I ease the trigger forward on my rifle as I was taught it causes less wear. However, during WBAS, I pull the trigger on my SG after getting it hung on safety before stoking. That was a SDQ. Now, it is a no call.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

I'm confused, I didn't know a '97 had a "safety", neither of mine do, do you mean "half-cock"?

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I am not in any hole. I contend my view is the correct one. Dry firing at the LT is illegal. Dropping the hammer unimpeded is dry firing. What is so hard to comprehend?

 

 

It's about how definitions fit situations. Yes Dropping the hammer unimpeded is dry firing, however for the purposes of this rule the handbook states what constitutes dry firing includes raising the firearm to the shooting position.

 

Think of it as rules in a game being differnet than life. If I get in my car and drive I am traveling, but if I take a step in basketball I am also traveling. Just because it has the same name doesnt mean it is the same. That's why we define terms.

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IMHO a dry fire is a dry fire regardless of how you hold the gun or where you point it.

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IMHO a dry fire is a dry fire regardless of how you hold the gun or where you point it.

 

Yea...we all know that. But as it's applied to penalties in this game we play, there are differences.

 

:FlagAm:

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I have always pulled the trigger to release the hammer after showing "clear" to the loading officer. HOWEVER, I always, always have my thumb on the hammer to lower it slowly after having released it by trigger pull. I never allow the hammer to hit full force as if it had been dry fired.

 

Exactly as above. Some ranges are kind of cramped and you always got folks milling around. Using the golden rule of treating all guns as if they are loaded would not have anyone dropping hammers full speed ahead in a shooting position or not. Imagine an AD at the loading table. That has the distinct possibility of not ending well at all. Smithy.

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We are not concerned about what happens with an empty chamber, only a chamber with a live round.

 

If there is a live round in the chamber, we have three options:

 

1. We drop the hammer unimpeded in a safe direction, it goes off, MDQ.

 

2. We carelfully place the hammer at half cock. Probably no ill effects unless the notch should break, but it could, SDQ.

 

3. We gently rest the hammer in the fully down position. We have now created an audio impact indicator with leathal potential. If that mechanism is dropped there is a darn good chance for a discharge in an unknown direction

 

But the rules we have in place, encourage option 3, outlaw option 2 and discourage option 1. When I think of arbitrary, this example comes to mind.

 

 

Cheers,

BJT

Dad, have I ever told you that you get smarter as I get older?

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Inaccurate statement. For many in this game, shooting position has little to do with sites ;-)

As far as SASS goes, I always try to be on site if I'm in a shooting position ;)

 

/disregard my previous post...

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While I may or may not need professional help that is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. What I definitely do need is a definitive answer to the question in the OP. Izzit ok or is it ain't. Referencing the mythical ROIII is not helpful. I continue to contend (in spite of the 2 usual suspects doggin' my cats about it [as most here understand is apparently their chief joy]) that dropping the hammer unimpeded on ANY firearm at the LT is unwise if not illegal. We don't do it with the pistols and we should not be doing it with the rifle. Disastrous consequences could follow such practice.

 

The rule is dry firing at the LT is illegal. But we cannot seem to agree on what constitutes dry firing and someone in authority needs to make a ruling that makes it clear one way or the other. It seems to me that what we have now is that either way of getting the hammer to final rest is acceptable. If that is to be the way it is without penalty for either method fine, I can live with that. But I know which way I will continue to do it. Anyone in their own mind that have reflected on the consequences and that do it the other way, just go ahead on -- don't mind me. But it sure would be nice to have a ruling from the PTB.

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While I may or may not need professional help that is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. What I definitely do need is a definitive answer to the question in the OP. Izzit ok or is it ain't. Referencing the mythical ROIII is not helpful. I continue to contend (in spite of the 2 usual suspects doggin' my cats about it [as most here understand is apparently their chief joy]) that dropping the hammer unimpeded on ANY firearm at the LT is unwise if not illegal. We don't do it with the pistols and we should not be doing it with the rifle. Disastrous consequences could follow such practice.

 

The rule is dry firing at the LT is illegal. But we cannot seem to agree on what constitutes dry firing and someone in authority needs to make a ruling that makes it clear one way or the other. It seems to me that what we have now is that either way of getting the hammer to final rest is acceptable. If that is to be the way it is without penalty for either method fine, I can live with that. But I know which way I will continue to do it. Anyone in their own mind that have reflected on the consequences and that do it the other way, just go ahead on -- don't mind me. But it sure would be nice to have a ruling from the PTB.

Don't know about PTB, but PWB has posted your answer and you have refused to believe it.

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While I may or may not need professional help that is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. What I definitely do need is a definitive answer to the question in the OP. Izzit ok or is it ain't. Referencing the mythical ROIII is not helpful. I continue to contend (in spite of the 2 usual suspects doggin' my cats about it [as most here understand is apparently their chief joy]) that dropping the hammer unimpeded on ANY firearm at the LT is unwise if not illegal. We don't do it with the pistols and we should not be doing it with the rifle. Disastrous consequences could follow such practice.

 

The rule is dry firing at the LT is illegal. But we cannot seem to agree on what constitutes dry firing and someone in authority needs to make a ruling that makes it clear one way or the other. It seems to me that what we have now is that either way of getting the hammer to final rest is acceptable. If that is to be the way it is without penalty for either method fine, I can live with that. But I know which way I will continue to do it. Anyone in their own mind that have reflected on the consequences and that do it the other way, just go ahead on -- don't mind me. But it sure would be nice to have a ruling from the PTB.

 

Oh fer gawdz sake...seriously, you're looney!

 

He gave an answer...and DRY FIRING is fine so long as you do it without violating the definition in OUR rule book.

 

OY!!!!!!

 

:wacko:

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diction (noun) Choice of words for the expression of ideas; the construction, disposition, and application of words in discourse, with regard to clearness, accuracy, variety, etc.

 

rule (noun) an established regulation or guide for conduct, procedure, usage, etc.

 

I think we all know what "dry firing" is but the operative phrase in this rule is "raising the gun to a shooting position" which needs to be defined. To me that means raising the gun to my shoulder and/or sighting it and then pulling the trigger.

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Been wrong before and will be agin.

 

Hopefully PWB gets home and rested up soon and will chime in.

 

 

Lone Dog... just say "I give" and enjoy your retirement.. :)

I can't do that fer about a year more.. so congratulations..

 

About the first 18 posts say it's OK.. PWB (who you wanted to chime in) says it's OK...

 

Rance <_<

Thinkin' it's OK :)

But seems..

Somebody wants to stir the pot a little more :lol: :lol:

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OK Lone Dog. I'll try to explain what I think is the answer to why dropping the rifle hammer unabated vs. lowering slowly is safer. First, you are at the loading table under the supervision of the LTO. You cycle your rifle while pointing the muzzle in the designated safe direction. You and the LTO verify the rifle is clear. EITHER method of bringing the hammer down has been verified as acceptable as per PWB in his earlier posts. We have verified that the rifle is clear/chamber empty. But mistakes happen. Somehow a live round makes it into the chamber. If we now use your method of lowering the hammer by easing if forward, we have a hammer down on a LIVE round. VERY UNSAFE condition, at least in my mind and I believe a lot of other folks as well. So if you lower the hammer by pulling the trigger and allowing the hammer to fall unabated, with the muzzle still pointed in the designated safe direction as always, the live round will go off. Did you, the LTO and anyone else in the vicinity just soil themselves? Most likely! But the unsafe condition was negated in a safe manner. The round went downrange, into a berm or backstop, whatever. Yeah, you got a MDQ. But you didn't stumble on the way to the firing line with a live round under the hammer and drop your rifle and have an AD with it pointed who knows where. Does a MDQ suck, you betcha! But I don't want to think of the possible consequences of the other scenario I described.

 

As far as you definition of dry firing. Yes pulling the trigger and letting the hammer fall unabated is the common, traditional definition of dry firing. But as for the rules in this game, dry firing to incur the SDQ penalty must also include the act of bringing the gun into a shooting position, which is and unless it is changed by the powers that be, shouldering the rifle. I know this seems to go against years of ingrained thinking on your part regarding dry firing, but the rules are what they are for this game.

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:lol:

 

Honey, it stands for Wild Bunch Action Shooting.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

I guess I shoulda ought to've known that. Never heard it called that afore. Just referred to as "Wild Bunch". I still like "Western Bad A** Shooting", tho.

 

Thanks,

 

Angus

[she called me "Honey" :wub: ]

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If they shoot the match from the hip, do they have to put it to their shoulder the lower the hammer?

 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

Going back to my hole now...........

 

coffe spew allert

 

that thar was funny :lol::lol::lol:

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Having followed the debate I am compelled to ask what is the danger of a N.G. discharge at the loading table? Or restated differently consider the alternative locations for a N.G. discharge, walking to the the firing line or on the firing line maybe? Or we are to hold that there is no safe location for checking whether guns are properly loaded.

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Having followed the debate I am compelled to ask what is the danger of a N.G. discharge at the loading table? Or restated differently consider the alternative locations for a N.G. discharge, walking to the the firing line or on the firing line maybe? Or we are to hold that there is no safe location for checking whether guns are properly loaded.

 

ND at the LT = MDQ as per SASS, as it should be........ ;)

If you can't see the danger in any ND by now.......You never will :rolleyes: ........

LG

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Anytime you pull a trigger and the hammer falls and there is no discharge you have engaged in dry firing. Any time you pull the trigger and there IS a discharge you have engaged in live firing.

 

 

Disregarding the SASS definition for a moment, are you sure about this? I'm pretty sure discharge or no discharge doesn't have anything to do with it.

 

Dry fire: To drop the hammer on an EMPTY chamber.

Live Fire: To drop the hammer on a LOADED chamber. (Even if it don't go bang.)

 

(And for anyone who doesn't know what the definition of "is" is, dropping the hammer means just that, to drop it. It doesn't mean to lower it with your thumb or any other extremity.)

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Ok Ok I give, I give. So both methods of lowering the hammer are acceptable and dropping the hammer unabated is NOT a stage DQ. Fine by me. Works for me. It's all good. But to me bringing the gun to a firing position is anything other than laying flat on the table -- this is with the rifle of course.

 

See here's the thing -- an old highly respected long time shooter here has been admonishing us that not easing the hammer down is a SDQ. I will have to clue him in he's been teaching all of us wrong.

 

All you pards that drop the hammer unabated on the rifle surely don't do the same with yer pistols do ya? Just curious why the two different methods is preferred. So long as I can keep easing my rifle hammer down I am a happy camper. Sorry to have got so many knickers in a knot but I'm sure I wasn't the only one not clear on this controversy.

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Ok Ok I give, I give. So both methods of lowering the hammer are acceptable and dropping the hammer unabated is NOT a stage DQ. Fine by me. Works for me. It's all good. But to me bringing the gun to a firing position is anything other than laying flat on the table -- this is with the rifle of course.

 

See here's the thing -- an old highly respected long time shooter here has been admonishing us that not easing the hammer down is a SDQ. I will have to clue him in he's been teaching all of us wrong.

 

All you pards that drop the hammer unabated on the rifle surely don't do the same with yer pistols do ya? Just curious why the two different methods is preferred. So long as I can keep easing my rifle hammer down I am a happy camper. Sorry to have got so many knickers in a knot but I'm sure I wasn't the only one not clear on this controversy.

 

An observation and a question.

I was mistaken that it was obvious to the most casual observer that the rifle has no rounds in the chamber or mag when the hammer is lowered and not so the revolver.

Do you really advocate pulling the trigger on ANY firearm without full control and complete knowledge of where it is pointing? Hope not.

 

Be careful out there pards.

 

BJT

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