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Bart Solo

Dry Fire At Loading Table

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I found myself in an discussion on Saturday involving some of the most knowledgable SASS shooters I know. It has to do with whether at the loading table, having cycled his action and demonstrated it is empty, a shooter can pull the trigger on his rifle to drop the hammer to the correct position. One very knowledgable shooter says that pulling the trigger is dry firing and another said it isn't. Rule 30 of the rule book says that dry firing at the loading table is defined defined as "the act of bringing the gun into a shooting position, cocking the hammer, and pulling the trigger as if to cause the gun to fire normally." In the situation I am describing you certainly "cock the hammer" as you are demonstrating the rifle is empty. You also pull the trigger. What is iffy to me is whether the gun is brought into a shooting position. You are simply pulling the trigger on a rifle you are about to load. I raise this question because my "go to" experts were in disagreement. I have seen a number of very experienced shooters pull the trigger on a rifle instead of lower the hammer softly. I sometimes work the loading table and I need to know the rules before I call a Stage DQ.

 

One other thing from the loading table. Saturday on the very first stage of the day I watched a shooter cycle his rifle, and noticed the end of a cleaning patch in the chamber. I helped the shooter pull it from the chamber. No harm no foul, but it could have resulted in a real problem. It just reminds me that we all need to take our loading table duties seriously.

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This has been dicussed several times over the years and what I remember it was OK. Some gunsmiths have indicated that pulling the trigger is less wear on the sear.

 

Wyatt

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Bart,

 

I have always pulled the trigger to release the hammer after showing "clear" to the loading officer. HOWEVER, I always, always have my thumb on the hammer to lower it slowly after having released it by trigger pull. I never allow the hammer to hit full force as if it had been dry fired.

 

When I do this exercise, my rifle is laying on the table, butt elevated a few inches with my left hand, and being cleared with my right. As I lower the butt back to the table, I am slowly lowering the hammer to its closed position.

 

What do you think Pale Wolf?

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This has been dicussed several times over the years and what I remember it was OK. Some gunsmiths have indicated that pulling the trigger is less wear on the sear.

 

Wyatt

Yep, it has, and last I remember it's OK, not considered dry fire. Last time it came up it was about the 97 for Wild Bunch shooting. But before you do it please check the mag plug, carrier, and chamber. Good Luck :)

 

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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AS Wyatt said, this has been discussed more than a few times over the years. I would hope that some common sense would be applied at the loading table. I don't believe checking and clearing a firearm and pulling the trigger would be considered "dry firing".. As quoted in the OP, dry firing is shouldering and aiming as if actually firing the gun. I would hate to see a shooter get a SDQ for the practice, the loading officer would become very unpopular in a hurry ......Would you also give them a SDQ for "decocking" at the loading table also ?....... Mink........

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Read your quoted definition of dry firing that is printed in the rule book, then use common sense.

 

Blackfoot

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Read your quoted definition of dry firing that is printed in the rule book, then use common sense.

 

Blackfoot

 

"commom sense", do people still use that anymore? :lol: :lol:

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If you want to make absolutely sure that your rifle is NOT on safety pull the trigger. It's not dry firing as described in the rule.... it's lowering the hammer to fully down position.

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AS Wyatt said, this has been discussed more than a few times over the years. I would hope that some common sense would be applied at the loading table. I don't believe checking and clearing a firearm and pulling the trigger would be considered "dry firing".. As quoted in the OP, dry firing is shouldering and aiming as if actually firing the gun. I would hate to see a shooter get a SDQ for the practice, the loading officer would become very unpopular in a hurry ......Would you also give them a SDQ for "decocking" at the loading table also ?....... Mink........

 

 

+1

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Think about this logically. You must start the stage with the hammer down on empty chamber with both the rifle and pistol. HOW IN THE BLUES BLAZES OF HELL DO YOU GET THERE WITHOUT PULLING THE TRIGGER? On all Rugers, except modified and 3-screw types, you can just open the gate to load... no need to touch the hammer. But, dad-gummed it folks, when you throw that lever or pull that slide, that danged ol' bolt thingie pushes the hammer to a full cock position. How else you gonna then get the firearm at a "hammer down" starting position? What, you're thinkin' ball-peen hammer... hell, it's just a little ol' sear. Ok, with just 2 cents worth of plain old uncommon good sense, tells us you have to pull the trigger. Whether you let the hammer down slowly or let fall naturally is your choice. ONCE to make the gun compliant with the safe starting condition as required by the rules. I tend to do that little operation before I fill the magazine... but hafta wait till I'm done rotating the cylinder on the six-guns.

 

And whether it's harder on firing pins to just let the hammer drop without a primer there to cushion the blow... I'll leave to metallurgists and their ilk.

 

But, to be sure, it's best to read a rule in its entirety... not to just read part of it and apply your own interpretation.

30. Dry firing at the loading table is not allowed and will result in a Stage Disqualification. Dry firing is allowed only at designated safe areas. Dry firing is defined as the act of bringing the gun into a shooting position, cocking the hammer, and pulling the trigger as if to cause the gun to fire normally.

I've always been told and have understood that to mean as if you were "shadow shooting", but with gun in hand.

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Pard,

 

That is not dry firing. The following is, from the ROI, "Dry firing at the loading table is not allowed and will result in a Stage Disqualification. Dry firing is allowed only at designated safe areas. Dry firing is defined as the act of bringing the gun into a shooting position, cocking the hammer, and pulling the trigger as if to cause the gun to fire normally."

 

I ease the trigger forward on my rifle as I was taught it causes less wear. However, during WBAS, I pull the trigger on my SG after getting it hung on safety before stoking. That was a SDQ. Now, it is a no call.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Bart

 

I'll stick by the answer I gave you at the range Saturday. Pulling the trigger and letting the hammer fall unabated at the loading table in preparation for loading for a stage is not considered dry firing. I do appreciate you asking the question and wanting to be absolutely clear before calling someone for a penalty. You are always looking for ways to improve your skills in this game, not only in your shooting, but in your understanding of the rules and how to make sure things run smoothly and by the book yet still having fun. I also applaud you for taking the time to look it up in the Handbook. Most of the time it's pretty evident what the call is after reading the rules. Sometimes it's still a little vague. That's when ya turn to the wire and get all our intellect throw at ya! :P

 

To clear things up a little, the question of pulling the trigger was never an issue. We all understand that you HAVE TO pull the trigger to lower the hammer. The question was letting the hammer fall unabated vs. assisting the hammer down with your thumb so as to retard the inertia of the hammer falling. He (Bart) was correct in his interpretation of the rule, he only brought this to the wire because he received some conflicting information from some "seasoned" shooters.

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I found myself in an discussion on Saturday involving some of the most knowledgable SASS shooters I know. It has to do with whether at the loading table, having cycled his action and demonstrated it is empty, a shooter can pull the trigger on his rifle to drop the hammer to the correct position. One very knowledgable shooter says that pulling the trigger is dry firing and another said it isn't. Rule 30 of the rule book says that dry firing at the loading table is defined defined as "the act of bringing the gun into a shooting position, cocking the hammer, and pulling the trigger as if to cause the gun to fire normally." In the situation I am describing you certainly "cock the hammer" as you are demonstrating the rifle is empty. You also pull the trigger. What is iffy to me is whether the gun is brought into a shooting position. You are simply pulling the trigger on a rifle you are about to load. I raise this question because my "go to" experts were in disagreement. I have seen a number of very experienced shooters pull the trigger on a rifle instead of lower the hammer softly. I sometimes work the loading table and I need to know the rules before I call a Stage DQ.

 

One other thing from the loading table. Saturday on the very first stage of the day I watched a shooter cycle his rifle, and noticed the end of a cleaning patch in the chamber. I helped the shooter pull it from the chamber. No harm no foul, but it could have resulted in a real problem. It just reminds me that we all need to take our loading table duties seriously.

Looks like some of the knowledgeable shooters are not so knowledgeable. If you bring the gun up in a shooting position, like you would on the firing line, it is not legal. If you do it in a lowered loading position, of course cycling the action including pulling the trigger is legal, it has to be, how in hell do you load some guns?

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One group I shot IDPA with for a while, insisted that you showed the empty chamber, let the slide forward, then, keeping the pistol pointed down range, pulled the trigger to make sure there was no live round in it. First time I shot with them, I showed the chamber, closed the slide, then decocked using the decocking lever. Was told to cock it and pull the trigger.

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One group I shot IDPA with for a while, insisted that you showed the empty chamber, let the slide forward, then, keeping the pistol pointed down range, pulled the trigger to make sure there was no live round in it. First time I shot with them, I showed the chamber, closed the slide, then decocked using the decocking lever. Was told to cock it and pull the trigger.

We point the pistol downrange and pull the trigger to show clear in WBAS.

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For me the phrase "shooting position" is the only issue. Some might argue that any time you can physically pull a trigger the gun is in "shooting position" but I think that renders the phrase meaningless. Obviously you pull the trigger when you use your thumb to lower the hammer, but as Titus said the issue was whether the hammer should be abated by the thumb as it is lowered or if you can simply let it fall unabated. I interpret the rule like everybody else here, but I only asked the question because I was hearing something else from others who are very well read in the rules and whose opinions I greatly respect. Since he brought it up, Titus was one of the pards involved in the discussion, but I see no reason to mention the others by name. Reasonable people can differ about such matters. The only important thing is that we clarify the rules before a difficulty arises. In this case it was more of a discussion than a contraversy.

 

Concerning Titus, I have to say that while we were waxing philosphic last Saturday we shot a stage where he beat me by .08 of a second. I was clearly distracted by the rules discussion. I want a reshoot. :rolleyes:

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One group I shot IDPA with for a while, insisted that you showed the empty chamber, let the slide forward, then, keeping the pistol pointed down range, pulled the trigger to make sure there was no live round in it. First time I shot with them, I showed the chamber, closed the slide, then decocked using the decocking lever. Was told to cock it and pull the trigger.

 

This is standard in both IDPA and IPSC the purpose of that is to show that somehow a bullet did not sneak into the chamber- yes it does happen- and the shooter has a loaded pistol off the firing line. It is a final check to insure the weapon is unloaded just as spinning your cylinder while showing it to the person at the unloading table is.

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I'm a thinkin' all you pards are a thinkin' wrong. Pulling the trigger and letting the hammer fall UNabated IS dry-firing and forbidden at the LT. Period. Regardless of "position" of gun. Position's got nothin' ta do with it.

 

Stage DQ. Don't do it. Got to ease the hammer down after pulling the trigger.

 

I think.

 

Been wrong before and will be agin.

 

Hopefully PWB gets home and rested up soon and will chime in anon.

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If they shoot the match from the hip, do they have to put it to their shoulder the lower the hammer?

 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

Going back to my hole now...........

 

Looks like some of the knowledgeable shooters are not so knowledgeable. If you bring the gun up in a shooting position, like you would on the firing line, it is not legal. If you do it in a lowered loading position, of course cycling the action including pulling the trigger is legal, it has to be, how in hell do you load some guns?

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I'm a thinkin' all you pards are a thinkin' wrong. Pulling the trigger and letting the hammer fall UNabated IS dry-firing and forbidden at the LT. Period. Regardless of "position" of gun. Position's got nothin' ta do with it.

 

Stage DQ. Don't do it. Got to ease the hammer down after pulling the trigger.

 

I think.

 

Been wrong before and will be agin.

 

Hopefully PWB gets home and rested up soon and will chime in anon.

Hi Lone Dog,

 

As I'd never had the trigger get stuck on safety on my SG before, the time it happened I asked the MD (Gold Country Wild Bunch President and NW WBAS Ambassador) what happened. He explained and recommended that I just pull the trigger on the SG before stoking.

 

You know the "drill;" ;) show me where there is a rule saying the hammer must be eased down.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS My example is WBAS not CAS...

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No can do ma'am. Worked all night. Too tired to do anything jest right now but lay me ole tard carcass down.

 

Show me where pulling the trigger and letting the hammer fall UNabated regardless of gun position is NOT pure and simple dry-firing which is specifically verboten.

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No can do ma'am. Worked all night. Too tired to do anything jest right now but lay me ole tard carcass down.

 

Show me where pulling the trigger and letting the hammer fall UNabated regardless of gun position is NOT pure and simple dry-firing which is specifically verboten.

Hi Loney,

 

I posted the HB definition and your definition was not part of it. I always understood that specific rules overrule generalities.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Concerning Titus, I have to say that while we were waxing philosphic last Saturday we shot a stage where he beat me by .08 of a second. I was clearly distracted by the rules discussion. I want a reshoot. :rolleyes:

 

 

Well Bart, Ole Pard, I contend you were distracted by that heathen smokeless powder ya got in yer cartridges. Stuff em fulla real black powder like mine and ya might just have a chance. Nothin like a snoot fulla black powder smoke ta clear yer head! :P

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I'm a thinkin' all you pards are a thinkin' wrong. I think.

 

Been wrong before and will be agin.

 

Hopefully PWB gets home and rested up soon and will chime in anon.

Pampa TX is a nice little town, Lone Dog. But, really if you are going to have an opinion expressed so forcefully on the forum then you might think about getting out a little more often.

 

THere is no place, no one, no how, never ain't gonna be or happen here place where that's a penalty. PERIOD.

 

Think about it: what Allie Mo said about Wild Bunch. Now, why would they do that? Because a checked gun with a cleared magazine that just had the trigger pulled and called clear is as safe as we can make it.

 

When you pull the trigger before you load there just can't be one in the chamber. That's a safety concern not a style issue. If you lower that same hammer you can't know for certain period posilutely that the gun is ready to load on an empty chamber.

 

No matter when PWB gets home.... which come to think of it... I don't remember seeing him once at EOT.

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I'm a thinkin' all you pards are a thinkin' wrong. Pulling the trigger and letting the hammer fall UNabated IS dry-firing and forbidden at the LT. Period. Regardless of "position" of gun. Position's got nothin' ta do with it.

 

Stage DQ. Don't do it. Got to ease the hammer down after pulling the trigger.

 

I think.

 

Been wrong before and will be agin.

 

Hopefully PWB gets home and rested up soon and will chime in anon.

 

Dry firing – defined as the act of bringing of an unloaded firearm into a shooting position, cocking the hammer and pulling the trigger as if to cause the gun to fire normally.
RO1 p.29 "Glossary of Terms"

 

If they shoot the match from the hip, do they have to put it to their shoulder the lower the hammer?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Going back to my hole now...........

 

Good question?...I would advise easing the hammer down, rather than risk a SDQ for dry firing at the LT.

;)

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...

No matter when PWB gets home.... which come to think of it... I don't remember seeing him once at EOT.

 

That's because he wasn't there.

 

:ph34r:

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If you want to make absolutely sure that your rifle is NOT on safety pull the trigger. It's not dry firing as described in the rule.... it's lowering the hammer to fully down position.

 

Clear and understood :)

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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RO1 p.29 "Glossary of Terms"

 

 

 

Good question?...I would advise easing the hammer down, rather than risk a SDQ for dry firing at the LT.

;)

 

So is this a case where there needs to be some clarification/rewording/updating of the handbook? Believe me, there are a LOT of pards and pardettes "risking a SDQ" at nearly every match I attend! :o Very common practice to drop the hammer unabated on a rifle at the loading table prior to loading now that it is a SDQ to arrive at the firing line with a hammer not fully down on your rifle. And I'm not talking about "shadow shooting" or anything of that nature. Just preparing to load for a stage.

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So is this a case where there needs to be some clarification/rewording/updating of the handbook? Believe me, there are a LOT of pards and pardettes "risking a SDQ" at nearly every match I attend! :o Very common practice to drop the hammer unabated on a rifle at the loading table prior to loading now that it is a SDQ to arrive at the firing line with a hammer not fully down on your rifle. And I'm not talking about "shadow shooting" or anything of that nature. Just preparing to load for a stage.

 

NO...

I was responding to BJT's inquiry re: the "shooting position" being from the hip rather than from the shoulder (for a long gun) if that is the shooter's normal shooting style.

I wouldn't expect the LTO to know that...& definitely would NOT SDQ a shooter for dropping the hammer under those circumstances.

 

Cycle the action to verify empty; drop (or ease down) the hammer; load.

(this process will vary by firearm type & model)

 

It SHOULD BE very obvious to the LTO if the shooter is doing otherwise.

IMO.

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Lone Dog,

 

The only way you get to the decision that the exact action discussed is dry firing is to ignore the phrase "shooting position" which is clearly part of the rule, or if you don't ignore it, to interpret it in such a way that it is meaningless. If the drafters didn't want us to give meaning to the phrase they wouldn't have used it when they defined "dry firing."

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NO...

I was responding to BJT's inquiry re: the "shooting position" being from the hip rather than from the shoulder (for a long gun) if that is the shooter's normal shooting style.

I wouldn't expect the LTO to know that...& definitely would NOT SDQ a shooter for dropping the hammer under those circumstances.

 

Cycle the action to verify empty; drop (or ease down) the hammer; load.

(this process will vary by firearm type & model)

 

It SHOULD BE very obvious to the LTO if the shooter is doing otherwise.

IMO.

 

Thanks PWB. I guess I took your answer literally and in too broad a terms. :rolleyes: I really appreciate your efforts here as the 'official word' on the rules. Guess I missed the ;) didn't I!

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Thanks PWB for clearing this up. I also read your comment the way Titus did the first time. It just seemed like since we do it with the 1911 it couldn't hurt with the rifle.

 

See Bart, I told you Titus was a ginius...geenyus....jeanuss... Really Really smart guy!! :lol:

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If they shoot the match from the hip, do they have to put it to their shoulder the lower the hammer?

 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

Going back to my hole now...........

 

 

Get back out of that hole...BJT !

 

Now I got a good question for you (BJT). ^_^

 

Could the phrase 'Common Sense' be considered an oxymoron? :o

 

 

..........Widder

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