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BJT

What is the call and how do you make it?

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Given the quote at the end of this post from our club web site, how would you call the following:

 

Order is double tap Nevada sweep on three targets for ten rounds.

 

Shooter starts a normal (single tap) Nevada sweep and after firing round 4, relizes he is in error and puts the remaining 6 on target 1.

 

TO asks the shooter if he shot that way out of confusion or to save time. Shooter responds, "I was confused and when I realized I made a mistake, I did not see how to make it right or to complete the sweep given what I had done already so I engaged the correct target type with remaining rounds."

 

Do you SOG the guy? His mistake caused him to miss out on 4 double tap opportunities, was he taking advantage or getting what was due him. The shooter had follwed the pattern of the instruction but not the number of rounds on each target. Which is more important?

 

I will tell you this TO's solution. If a shooter has a P that I can not stop, I will instruct him to shoot the remainder of the sequence any way he wants because he already has the P. This minimizes the brain fade time for the shooter and makes my call easier. If anyone has a problem with my instruction, let the shooter reshoot.

 

Very Best Regards,

BJT

 

"

Snakebite posted the following on the SASS Wire (via Allie Mo):

 

You are supposed to do your best to shoot the stage the way it is written. If you screw up and do it wrong, you get a "P". If that happens, it does not release you from the obligation to continue the best you can with the scenario. If you CHOOSE to continue the stage in the fastest way possible, just to make up time, then you are NOT doing the right thing. You can claim that your interpretation of the rules is such that once you make a mistake you are no longer obliged to follow the scenario, but that does not make it right. It is a "Spirit of the Game" penalty to do so.

 

That is an OFFICIAL ruling from the ROC.

 

I would not issue a SOG to a shooter who did such because they were confused. I would issue a SOG to a shooter who did such to save time. How would I know? I would ask the shooter. Yes, the shooter could lie about it and get away with it.

 

Integrity is a personal thing. Some have it, and some don't.

 

Snakebite

Chief RO "

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The TOs I shoot with would have been telling me to double tap to get back as close as possible to the prescribed order. If I had chosen to dump 6 I would expect an SOG at an annual or above match, and at least a warning at a monthly.

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Hello,

 

From the ROC determination by Snakebite, it appears that he should have just started a DT NV sweep where he was when the goof was made. Dumping "six on one" was the type of thing that led to the determination in the first place. Remember, according to Snakebite, the mistake and P "does not release you from the obligation to continue the best you can with the scenario."

 

When the ROC makes a determination, that is a rule clarification that can be expected to be enforced at major matches.

 

So, until I hear otherwise from Snakebite or PWB, a P and a SOG would be the correct call. Of course, at a monthly match, rules are sometimes bent by those in charge AND if the shooter had asked for instructions from the TO and the TO said (as you said you would) just dump on one, no SOG would be applied.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo :ph34r:;)

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Around here we yell "Free Style" and have fun with the rest of the order. When a shooter is obviously confused, it is sometimes possible to never get back on track for that string. The P will usually take care of any advantage, perceived or otherwise, by shooting out of order.

 

Honor is a thing you have or you don't. If you know you're in the running for the Cadillac, you owe it to SOG to attempt getting back on track.

 

CR

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[quote name=BJT' timestamp='1312991761' post='2244625

 

Do you SOG the guy? I kinda think yes... His mistake caused him to miss out on 4 double tap opportunities, was he taking advantage I kinda think yes.. or getting what was due him. The shooter had follwed the pattern of the instruction (No he didn't follow the instruction) but not the number of rounds on each target. Which is more important?

 

 

I would not issue a SOG to a shooter who did such because they were confused. I would issue a SOG to a shooter who did such to save time. (this I believe is what took place) How would I know? I would ask the shooter. Yes, the shooter could lie about it and get away with it.

 

Integrity is a personal thing. Some have it, and some don't.

 

Snakebite

Chief RO "

 

I kinda think a SOG was won here... He admitted that he was confused.. but didn't try to continue the instructed pattern to get back to where he should have been.. If he had started double tapping at the time the confusion set in.. ok just a "P".. he elected to dump.. taking advantage of the rest of the shooters that shot it properly..

 

Rance <_<

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I thought the wire was getting a bit cool myself...

 

Would it take any longer to tell the shooter, "double-tap Nevada", than "just dump 'em"? Even if the shooter can not get back on track to negate the "P", he can continue on as close as he can.

 

Possum

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I side with BJT.

 

More times that not, the person will be totally confused enough and probably have a miss or two on top of the P. There isn't enough time saving on dumping on one target vs continuing on with a biffed up sweep. I believe the shooter has a higher chance of walking shoots off a single target vs sweeping, but that can be debated too. Can someone really go from a full on legal engagement attempt to deciding to salvage a stage by dumping on one target with a procedural already earned in a milisecond of time? Perhaps.

 

Anyway, I give the Procedural person a break and no SOG and just a P with earned misses and safeties if any..

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It seems like all posts relating to this ASS U ME that a dump is faster than a 2x tap. Hmmm... explain then why dumps OFTEN result in jacked rounds which then require reloads and even worse times.

 

Finish the string SAFELY however you have to do it.

 

Award the "P"

 

Next shooter.

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Hello,

 

From the ROC determination by Snakebite, it appears that he should have just started a DT NV sweep where he was when the goof was made. Dumping "six on one" was the type of thing that led to the determination in the first place. Remember, according to Snakebite, the mistake and P "does not release you from the obligation to continue the best you can with the scenario."

 

When the ROC makes a determination, that is a rule clarification that can be expected to be enforced at major matches.

 

So, until I hear otherwise from Snakebite or PWB, a P and a SOG would be the correct call. Of course, at a monthly match, rules are sometimes bent by those in charge AND if the shooter had asked for instructions from the TO and the TO said (as you said you would) just dump on one, no SOG would be applied.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo :ph34r:;)

 

So where would one go to find the compilation of all these ROC determinations?

 

I also agree with BJT about asking the shooter why--there is no way we can be inside someone's head and assign motives to them. I have seen some crazy meltdowns by shooters, beginner to top-gun, and you just never know what's going to happen or why.

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"A “spirit of the game” infraction occurs when a competitor willfully or intentionally

disregards the stage instructions in order to obtain a competitive advantage (i.e., taking the

penalty would result in a lower score or faster time than following the instructions) and is not

assessed simply because a competitor “makes a mistake.” In such a case, in addition to any

penalties for misses, a 30-second failure to engage/Spirit of the Game penalty is assessed."

 

I read laws for a living so I guess my interpretation is probably not what some people want.

 

Willfully or intentionally disregarding instructions means more than making a mistake, it means ignoring the instructions from the get go. Having earned a procedural for a mental error and attempting to recover the time of that penalty by completing the stage in the best manner possible does not strike me as meeting the definition of gaining a competitive advantage.

 

Let's get serious-Most matches have someone shooting stages in the teens. With a 10 second penalty, the shooter has lost the stage and probably the match. If it is a total time match, a top competitor might be able to make up 10 seconds over the remainder of the match. Yeah, if I dump the remaining rounds on the correct type of target, I might beat the hypothetical version of me that tries to regain his composure and figure out the remainder of the shooting order. But I did not from the outset start in a manner to meet the willful or intentional portion of the SOG rule

 

I like the calling of "Free Style" I've been at matches where it was done and it was a hoot. I do not like the idea of someone who has lost track of the shooting order and earned a procedural wondering where to shoot the remaining shots-that to me seems a dangerous distraction.

 

I'm not saying my view is the way it is, but I am saying it is the way it should be. :D

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It seems like all posts relating to this ASS U ME that a dump is faster than a 2x tap. Hmmm... explain then why dumps OFTEN result in jacked rounds which then require reloads and even worse times.

 

Finish the string SAFELY however you have to do it.

 

Award the "P"

 

Next shooter.

 

Sorry Partner but, the shooter should be awarded a "P" and,based on his intent to save time,be awarded a SOG.

 

I was RO when a young shooter messed up on the rifle sequence and dumped on one target. I awarded him a SOG. He was upset at the time, but has become a true friend and a better SASS shooter and a year later thanked me for the call.

 

The SOG is a hard call but sometimes it's just what the doctor ordered.

 

Ghost

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Integrity is a personal thing. Some have it, and some don't.

 

Snakebite

Chief RO "

 

Really? Just like some pards don't think their poop stinks.

 

What a low opinion of SASS members. :angry:

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Correct me if I'm wrong here and yes I am going way around this thing to come back to the middle........but some time ago when the game was different and we actually had long rifle shots there were a couple of shooters that would shoot pistol targets with their rifle because a P was LESS time then shooting the rifle targets......

 

So it was decried that if you hit a pistol target with a rifle round it wasn't a P it was a MISS (Failure to hit the appropriate target with the appropriate firearm) so now those same shooter would be facing 50 seconds worth of penalties. Anyone would be able to do the math and know that shooting pistol targets with the rifle was not going to save them time......

 

And then someone said yeah but that's double jeopardy to give me a MISS and a P for shooting pistol targets with the rifle so it was decried "A Miss Can't Cause a P"..........

 

NOW......we are going to tell the guy that shoots the pistol targets out of order and just finishes the string out without attempting to follow the stage instructions that he earned a P and a SOG when the possibility of the 10 second P being faster then shooting the string correctly is close to 0% in today's game.......GIVE ME A BREAK........

 

How about this idea...........if you hit a target it's a HIT, if you miss a target it's a MISS, if you hit the targets in an order other then prescribed by the stage instructions it's a P, if you earn a P and it was done because the P was faster then shooting the correct string (in the opinion of the match director/range master) you get an additional SOG. That would enable us to drop this whole "hit the appropriate target with the appropriate firearm" stuff and SIMPLIFY the rules just a little bit.

 

About the SOG......I think you would be hard pressed to find a pistol or rifle string these days that takes the average shooter MORE then 10 seconds to complete after they fire the first shot of the string. There is NO way shooting the string incorrectly and getting a P is going to be faster then shooting the string correctly even for the slowest of shooters.

 

Stan - who thinks it's time to SIMPLIFY things around here and let common sense rule the day!

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let common sense rule the day!

Stan forget the common sense, it seems like everybody wants to be a hard ass any more.

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Ethics cannot always be reduced to mathematics.

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Here is what the call hinges on:

TO asks the shooter if he shot that way out of confusion or to save time. Shooter responds, "I was confused and when I realized I made a mistake, I did not see how to make it right or to complete the sweep given what I had done already so I engaged the correct target type with remaining rounds."

Unless my reading skills fail me, the shooter was confused and finished the course the best way he could. Where does he earn a SOG? He was asked his intent and since my mind-reading skills are lacking, I have to take hios word at face value. "P" only.

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Ethics cannot always be reduced to mathematics.

 

And THAT is about the smartest post I seen yet!

 

 

 

Hello,

 

From the ROC determination by Snakebite, it appears that he should have just started a DT NV sweep where he was when the goof was made. Dumping "six on one" was the type of thing that led to the determination in the first place. Remember, according to Snakebite, the mistake and P "does not release you from the obligation to continue the best you can with the scenario."

 

When the ROC makes a determination, that is a rule clarification that can be expected to be enforced at major matches.

 

So, until I hear otherwise from Snakebite or PWB, a P and a SOG would be the correct call. Of course, at a monthly match, rules are sometimes bent by those in charge AND if the shooter had asked for instructions from the TO and the TO said (as you said you would) just dump on one, no SOG would be applied.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo :ph34r:;)

 

Once again Miss Allie you got it wrong. First of all, no RO worth his or her salt is goin to go lookin' for "Da Man" to make the call. They're gonna calls'em as they see them and if the shooter disagrees he or she can always protest that call. Last time I looked my hip pockets were way too small for either Snakebite or PWB and I ain't carrying my cell to the line so's I can call....anyone.

 

Second of all, I have NEVER, EVER seen a shooter take advantage like this. You get tripped up (and where does this idea come from that the shooter has to shoot as close to the correct order as possible or he gets a SOG) and you shoots the targets until you ain't got no more bullets. The call would be the same for a monthly or EOT. Ain't no difference!

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The shooter earned the P, we all agree on that.

 

AFTER that, which would be more competitive for most shooters, trying to return to the prescribed order, or simply dumping all remaining rounds on one target?

 

Using BJTs example, if the TO had instructed "double tap, double tap, double tap" and the shooter had dumped all 6 on one target anyway, would that change your call?

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Here is what the call hinges on:

 

Unless my reading skills fail me, the shooter was confused and finished the course the best way he could. Where does he earn a SOG? He was asked his intent and since my mind-reading skills are lacking, I have to take hios word at face value. "P" only.

 

 

+1

 

KK

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Here is what the call hinges on:

 

Unless my reading skills fail me, the shooter was confused and finished the course the best way he could. Where does he earn a SOG? He was asked his intent and since my mind-reading skills are lacking, I have to take hios word at face value. "P" only.

 

+1

 

KK

 

The shooter earned the P, we all agree on that.

 

AFTER that, which would be more competitive for most shooters, trying to return to the prescribed order, or simply dumping all remaining rounds on one target?

 

Using BJTs example, if the TO had instructed "double tap, double tap, double tap" and the shooter had dumped all 6 on one target anyway, would that change your call?

 

KK, I'd be interested to hear your input of the questions I asked above.

 

Thanks

Grizz

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Ever had a TO give you wrong advice that you ignored, Grizzer? I have... I've also not heard him screaming when I was doing my best to do whatever (remember, clear a gun...whatever).

 

For what it's worth, Ghost, I've never, not one time ever said, "SHOOTER'S READY" without intending to save as much time as I possibly can save.

 

Will anyone whose intent is NOT to save as much time as possible on every movement on every stage please respond? ;)

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You have a point King, but if I was the shooter, I KNEW I just P'd the string, and the TO was telling me double tap double tap double tap, I would follow his directions.

 

And I am responding, if I screw up a string and earn a P, I will try to get back on track even though it will take me longer that if I just dumped all remaining rounds. That is how I play the game.

 

Thankfully I have only one P that I can remember, Stage 4, CAC 2010 working on a clean match, RO told me one more on 2, I put it there, would have been quicker to just put it on target 4 where I was already aiming.

 

This is what, the third of fourth post on this subject in the last two weeks? It's clear that each side has passionate views and will never agree on this subject. Talk about kicking a dead horse, old paint should be plenty tenderized by now.

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"P" next shooter. No penalty for confusion or attempting to salvage a shooting string.

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The shooter earned the P, we all agree on that.

 

AFTER that, which would be more competitive for most shooters, trying to return to the prescribed order, or simply dumping all remaining rounds on one target?

 

Using BJTs example, if the TO had instructed "double tap, double tap, double tap" and the shooter had dumped all 6 on one target anyway, would that change your call?

Howdy Grizz,

I can't speak for other people and thats the point behind this thread, you can't read peoples minds, but if I had messed up (and I have a lot)I would have continued the best I could, but just me I would have never dumped, but to answer your question a dump would be faster if it went smooth. Your second question most shooters get into a zone and if somebody started yelling double tap, some could correct and some would shoot the first thing that came to them after they relized they screwed up and some may even freeze if the were yelled instructions.

 

Thanks

KK

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Ever had a TO give you wrong advice that you ignored, Grizzer? I have... I've also not heard him screaming when I was doing my best to do whatever (remember, clear a gun...whatever).

 

For what it's worth, Ghost, I've never, not one time ever said, "SHOOTER'S READY" without intending to save as much time as I possibly can save.

 

Will anyone whose intent is NOT to save as much time as possible on every movement on every stage please respond? ;)

 

I reckon I'd fall into that category. I do at times shoot all the rifle targets in the head, or shoot a more difficult sequence, or I might even attempt to draw a smiley face instead of just engaging the steel. So no, my intent is NOT always to shoot a stage as fast as possible.

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Howdy Grizz,

I can't speak for other people and thats the point behind this thread, you can't read peoples minds, but if I had messed up (and I have a lot)I would have continued the best I could, but just me I would have never dumped, but to answer your question a dump would be faster if it went smooth. Your second question most shooters get into a zone and if somebody started yelling double tap, some could correct and some would shoot the first thing that came to them after they relized they screwed up and some may even freeze if the were yelled instructions.

 

Thanks

KK

 

Thanks for the reply KK, I appreciate it.

 

A lot really vaires on the speed of the shooter, a slow shooter like me would benefit more from a speed dump after a P, a faster shooter not as much.

 

I've been racking my mind to come up with an analogy, I know some folks hate them, but I think they are useful tools to illustrate a point.

 

You are in a road race, you get a penalty for going off the course, but, you can only get one such penalty per round. You oversteer on a turn, take out a couple of cones earning that penalty, you can either steer back onto the course and finish the lap, or drive thru the infield and take a short cut. Admittedly not a perfect analogy as shooting still had targets that need to be hit, but I think it illustrates Snakebites point about a P not releasing a shooter from the obligation to try and finish the string properly.

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Guest Tennessee Stud, SASS# 43634 Life

What is the call and how do you make it?

 

 

The call is a Rebel Yell... and ya jest open ya mouth and holler.

 

 

 

 

 

 

t(joshin')s

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Whatever the rules committee has decided is the rule. What follows is just my opinion.

 

"A “spirit of the game” infraction occurs when a competitor willfully or intentionally

disregards the stage instructions in order to obtain a competitive advantage (i.e., taking the

penalty would result in a lower score or faster time than following the instructions) and is not

assessed simply because a competitor “makes a mistake.” In such a case, in addition to any

penalties for misses, a 30-second failure to engage/Spirit of the Game penalty is assessed." SASS HANDBOOK

 

So the question starts when is the P earned-if the P was earned intentionally, then it will be an SOG, otherwise it wasn't intentional or willful. This could be seen as the first shot of a string results in the P not three or four shots into the string.

 

If the P was not earned "Willfully or intentionally" then it doesn't meet the wording of the rule "A “spirit of the game” infraction occurs when a competitor willfully or intentionally disregards the stage instructions in order to obtain a competitive advantage (i.e., taking the penalty would result in a lower score or faster time than following the instructions) and is not assessed simply because a competitor “makes a mistake.”

 

Unless the P was taken to gain a competitive advantage, then it is not an SOG violation. There is nothing in the rule that suggests dumping after a mistakenly earned Procedural is done to obtain a competitive disadvantage.

 

I respectfully submit that regardless of what anyone says, my interpretation is correct and if that is not what the Wild Bunch, TG's and Rules Committee want, they need to write the rule specifically to direct the result they want.

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After the P is first incurred "shoot it any way you want to now" we say. You can only get one P per stage. After brain fading into P land there is NO way to "get back on track". NO way to finish the stage "as it should be shot". That ship has sailed.

 

It's just a P and after incurring the P, the shooter MAY and with impunity from any uncalled for SOG penalty, finish it any way they want to. Those wanting to invoke a SOG after a brain fade induced P are forgetting the very important rule of "don't be a hardass". The SOG is for willful evilness, not brain fartingness.

 

I personally would never dump as I despise dump targets. Never do one if there is any other option. I don't even like double taps and will always choose any sweep over any multi-taps if given any kind of option.

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Whatever the rules committee has decided is the rule. What follows is just my opinion.

 

"A “spirit of the game” infraction occurs when a competitor willfully or intentionally

disregards the stage instructions in order to obtain a competitive advantage (i.e., taking the

penalty would result in a lower score or faster time than following the instructions) and is not

assessed simply because a competitor “makes a mistake.” In such a case, in addition to any

penalties for misses, a 30-second failure to engage/Spirit of the Game penalty is assessed." SASS HANDBOOK

 

So the question starts when is the P earned-if the P was earned intentionally, then it will be an SOG, otherwise it wasn't intentional or willful. This could be seen as the first shot of a string results in the P not three or four shots into the string.

 

If the P was not earned "Willfully or intentionally" then it doesn't meet the wording of the rule "A “spirit of the game” infraction occurs when a competitor willfully or intentionally disregards the stage instructions in order to obtain a competitive advantage (i.e., taking the penalty would result in a lower score or faster time than following the instructions) and is not assessed simply because a competitor “makes a mistake.”

 

Unless the P was taken to gain a competitive advantage, then it is not an SOG violation. There is nothing in the rule that suggests dumping after a mistakenly earned Procedural is done to obtain a competitive disadvantage.

 

I respectfully submit that regardless of what anyone says, my interpretation is correct and if that is not what the Wild Bunch, TG's and Rules Committee want, they need to write the rule specifically to direct the result they want.

 

J Mark, so you are saying that if a shooter 'accidentally' (no prior intent) put the first shot of a stage on the wrong target (earning a P), he can dump all remaining rounds for the stage on the appropriate target type for that firearm (to avoid misses) without further penalty?

 

Edited for clarity.

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Once again Miss Allie you got it wrong. First of all, no RO worth his or her salt is goin to go lookin' for "Da Man" to make the call. They're gonna calls'em as they see them and if the shooter disagrees he or she can always protest that call...

 

Please show me where I said I would look for anyone.

 

If I read (on the Wire, TG Wire, or direct email) or hear a rule clarification (at the Summit or a match) by Snakebite or PWB that is announced as official, which we just did read, I have no need to look for anyone. I make the call according to what I read or heard from them. Yes, the shooter can always protest.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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...

 

Second of all, I have NEVER, EVER seen a shooter take advantage like this. You get tripped up (and where does this idea come from that the shooter has to shoot as close to the correct order as possible or he gets a SOG) and you shoots the targets until you ain't got no more bullets. The call would be the same for a monthly or EOT. Ain't no difference!

You are lucky to have never met a cheat.

 

Yes, the call should be the same at all matches, large and small. I said, people bend the rules at monthlies.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Hello again,

 

The possibility of a SOG appears to be intended to prevent the shooter from doing something to gain an UNFAIR advantage.

 

What if there was a difficult sequence and/or hard and easy targets. How do we prevent a shooter from intentionally screwing up the sequence, getting the P, and then dumping on an easy target, without the possibility of a SOG penalty for not doing their best to complete the scenario. On some stages with some shooters, this could be the fastest way to get a good time.

 

Regards,

 

Allie "who will act according to her conscience and the ROC clarification in the specific circumstance" Mo

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I reckon I'd fall into that category. I do at times shoot all the rifle targets in the head, or shoot a more difficult sequence, or I might even attempt to draw a smiley face instead of just engaging the steel. So no, my intent is NOT always to shoot a stage as fast as possible.

If I might be so bold as to say daz why you be so faz Missar 'Possum. Man whutz dat faz got mo' choyzs :ph34r: Sumtym the mo' I gets tricky da mor I gitz trikt. :wacko:

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