Lee Factory Crimp die in a Dillon 650 - 38 Special

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

After reading about how this die does such a great job of crimping the ammo and thereby helping to keep the guns cleaner (among other things), I decided to give one a whirl.

 

1) The instructions said to screw the die down to the point that it begins to touch the shell plate and finger tighten the lock ring. By the time the die was screwed down far enough to touch the shell plate, there was barely enough thread left above the tool head to feel as if I was properly tightening the lock ring...and it looks weird too.

 

2) When I put a round through it, I cannot feel or see that a crimp has been applied. Maybe I'm expecting too much.

 

Does anyone use this die on a 650 that can shed some light?

 

Am I just barking up the wrong tree to attempt to use one?

[Cabalero Chuck]

Have you adjusted the aluminum crimp collar screw?

If that has been backed out too far, the crimp will not take effect.

Once you adjust the crimp -in-,You might find that the die body will need to be unscrewed -out- from the press, allowing the retainer nut some more purchase on the die threads.

I know that the few complaints that I have read about Lee dies in general is that they (Lee dies) have inadequate die body thread length.

[Phiren Smoke GUNFIGHTER]

Buck,

 

I am not familiar with the 650, but my Lee turret/die head is right at 1 inch thick. This leaves just enough thread for the lock ring. If your die holder/tool head is thicker than that I have heard of some pards putting the lock ring on the bottom of the die up side down under the tool head.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Smoke

 

ps Hope to see you at the Open.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

Buck,

 

I am not familiar with the 650, but my Lee turret/die head is right at 1 inch thick. This leaves just enough thread for the lock ring. If your die holder/tool head is thicker than that I have heard of some pards putting the lock ring on the bottom of the die up side down under the tool head.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Smoke

 

ps Hope to see you at the Open.

 

Thanks for that tip. I do intend to be at the Open...and Indiana this weekend too!

 

 

 

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

Buck,

 

I am not familiar with the 650, but my Lee turret/die head is right at 1 inch thick. This leaves just enough thread for the lock ring. If your die holder/tool head is thicker than that I have heard of some pards putting the lock ring on the bottom of the die up side down under the tool head.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Smoke

 

ps Hope to see you at the Open.

Howdy,

I have a 550 couldn't get a factory crimp die to work on a 32-20, but works fine for 38-40, try the putting the ring on the bottom so you can get it down a little futher like the previous post said.

 

KK

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

As a commercial loader using Dillon 650 presses and Lee dies, put the Locking Ring on the bottom side of the tool head.

 

I do not use the Factory Crimp Die. I find the Roll Crimp Die does it's job well if adjusted. As temperatures change so does the adjustment.

 

Besides, I don't have room for the extra crimp die.

I have a second powder hopper in station 4 to drop filler if needed for BP rounds. Seating and Crimp Die at staion 5.

[Buckshot Frank]

Buck,

 

I am not familiar with the 650, but my Lee turret/die head is right at 1 inch thick. This leaves just enough thread for the lock ring. If your die holder/tool head is thicker than that I have heard of some pards putting the lock ring on the bottom of the die up side down under the tool head.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Smoke

 

ps Hope to see you at the Open.

 

+1

My Dillon 550 manual (yes- I actually read the manual) suggests putting the lock ring on the bottom of the tool head for shorter dies.

[Dubious Don #56333]

I'm new to Lee crimp dies; only calibers I use them in are weird-o military stuff like 7.5 Swiss, 303 brit, 6.5/7.7 arisaka and the like. I did notice that when the shell goes into the crimp die from the top you can see the collet squeeze down on it and by the abount of gap between the collet fingers, judge how much crimp you got. I'm not sure I like the Lee lock rings wit hthe rubber O-ring, I think I might like to change them to the RCBS types. Maybe.

 

The cartridges I use them Lee crimp dies in I've been real happy so far with its performance on bottleneck calibers.

[Phiren Smoke GUNFIGHTER]

Thanks for that tip. I do intend to be at the Open...and Indiana this weekend too!

 

If you are available Sunday the 24th. There is a Wild Bunch match at the Shooting Complex in Sparta. Register at 11 shoot at noon.

 

I have an extra 1911 if you need it, or you can shoot cowboy.

 

If you are not available I'll see you at the Open.

 

Smoke

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Lee has two completely different versions of what it calls the Factory Crimp Die. The version for the .32-20 and other bottleneck rifle cartridges is completely different than the die for straight wall pistol cartridges. The rifle version has a sleeve that must contact the shell plate as the shell plate has to push the sleeve up and a tapered collet then squeezes the crimp portion of the die inwards to make a squeeze type crimp. The rifle dies do not resize the bottom of the case. The pistol dies have a carbide ring at the bottom of the die (just like a sizer die) that resizes the case as it goes into the die. It will actually iron out any small problems in the area where the bullet is seated into the case. Near the end of the stroke the pistol die has a more or less standard floating roll crimp. On the pistol dies the die does not need to be screwed all the way down until it touches the shell plate. At that point the carbide sizer ring has already sized the area where the bullet seats and since it must be a little larger in diameter than a resizing die it actually doesn't touch or makes minimal contact with the case head (the area right above the case rim). Leave about 1/8" between the die body and the shell plate. Then slowly screw in the crimp knob on the top of the die until you get the desired crimp and everything will work fine.

 

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee241/pettifogger1/P1040242.jpg

[Cabalero Chuck]

Before I finished this post, I found that L.Pettifogger said about the same thing (although a bit more explanatory), but since I already typed it,I figured -What the hay- post it anyway.

 

Another thought about the retainer nut. Flip it over so that the o-ring/& groove aren't employed at all.

The threads will engage without that 1/8 inch gap of the o-ring groove.

For what it's worth, the crimp that the Lee FCD does for you can happen with the combo seat/crimp die from your (whatever brand) die set.

The Lee die gives you the advantage(?) of a sizing ring at the base of the die body. You just have to remove the seating pin from your die set and you have a taper -or- roll crimp only die (which type depends on the cartridge you are working with) and come up with some other method for seating your bullet.

That sizing ring is what gets everyone worked up about when they are introduced to the taper/roll crimp style FCD.

That sizing ring can be a good -or- a bad thing, you need to determine if the extra round of sizing is suitable or even desirable for your application.

Dubious Don, the FCD s you are referring to are the collet style Factory Crimp Die s . A different animal from what Buck is asking about.There is NO sizing ring integral to the collet style Factory Crimp Dies.

[Go West]

I used the threaded nut from Dillon instead of the Lee nut w/o-ring. It's installed on top and it's screwed down to the shellplate.

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

Unless ya crumple a case seating the bullet, a FCD is a perfect solution to a non-existant problem for straight-walled revolver ammo. I can see using one when mass-producing reloads for bottom feeders, but for cowboy loads, a properly adjusted seat/crimp die does all ya need to do.

[Grizzly Dave]

took me a while to get my RCBS seat / crimp die adjusted the way I wanted it, but now it works just great. And since I load on a rock chucker, the idea of separate seat and crimp dies is just not something I would want to consider.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

Then slowly screw in the crimp knob on the top of the die until you get the desired crimp and everything will work fine.

 

http://i228.photobuc...r1/P1040242.jpg

 

I can't tell that it's crimping the round at all and I've tried screwing the crimp knob all the way down. If it's touching the case at all, I can't tell it based upon the total lack of resistance. Maybe I'm expecting too much, but when I look at the "crimped" case, I can't tell that it is crimped.

 

 

The early part of your post made a lot of sense to me...and thanks for the photo.

[Klondike SASS Life #29713]

As a commercial loader using Dillon 650 presses and Lee dies, put the Locking Ring on the bottom side of the tool head.

Buck, this was my solution for my 650 also. I'm loading .38's. One thing I did find is it will not do .360 diameter bullets which I was using for awhile.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

I can't tell that it's crimping the round at all and I've tried screwing the crimp knob all the way down. If it's touching the case at all, I can't tell it based upon the total lack of resistance. Maybe I'm expecting too much, but when I look at the "crimped" case, I can't tell that it is crimped.

 

 

The early part of your post made a lot of sense to me...and thanks for the photo.

 

You will absolutely know when it is crimping as you will feel the resistance in the press handle and the crimp will be clearly visible on the neck of the case. I wonder if the crimp sleeve is missing or installed upside down? First thing is to shake the die. You can hear the crimp sleeve moving back and forth. Next, take it apart and make sure the tapered side of the crimp sleeve is facing DOWN. If it is in upside down it won't work. Here's a pic. There's not much in there and they are pretty foolproof.

 

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee241/pettifogger1/P1040243.jpg

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

You will absolutely know when it is crimping as you will feel the resistance in the press handle and the crimp will be clearly visible on the neck of the case. I wonder if the crimp sleeve is missing or installed upside down? First thing is to shake the die. You can hear the crimp sleeve moving back and forth. Next, take it apart and make sure the tapered side of the crimp sleeve is facing DOWN. If it is in upside down it won't work. Here's a pic. There's not much in there and they are pretty foolproof.

 

http://i228.photobuc...r1/P1040243.jpg

 

I'll inspect that when I return from Indiana. It was a used die, so that is possible. I do know that the crimp sleeve is there, but as you said, it might be upside down.

 

 

 

[SlicLee SASS #16638 Life]

I use a 650 and redding turret with LFC in both. I load 38 special,lead bullet .357, .358,38/55 260 grain and 300 grain,38/40,with 140 grain, 180 grain,44 mag with 165 and 180, 200 grain, 40/70 sharps straight with 300,330,400 in both machines have never had a problem with the LFC die using the directions as printed.

[Buckshot Frank]

I can't tell that it's crimping the round at all and I've tried screwing the crimp knob all the way down. If it's touching the case at all, I can't tell it based upon the total lack of resistance. Maybe I'm expecting too much, but when I look at the "crimped" case, I can't tell that it is crimped.

 

 

The early part of your post made a lot of sense to me...and thanks for the photo.

 

If you can't tell, then it's not crimping it. Before I got my Dillon, I used the Lee Factory Crimp Die for .38's. I would put a heavy crimp on my .38 rifle ammo to avoid bullet set-back. The Lee Factory Crimp Die will leave a shiney lip on the brass when crimped.

 

Here's how I have always adjusted the crimp die: Screw the crimp adjustment all the way out to start. Screw the die in until it just touches the shell plate, back it out a hair, and tighten it. With I loaded case in the die, screw the crimp adjustment in until you feel resistance. Lower the ram, and screw the crimp knob in 1/4 turn at a time until the desired crimp is achieved.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Buck, I'll be interested to hear what you think of the die once you get it working.

 

My .38/.357 Lee dies came with an FCD and I didn't find any advantage to using it, so it now stays in the box. A friend also gave me one for .45 Colt and my experience was the same. It takes a bit more effort (not much) to set up a seating/crimp die, but once done they work like a charm. My '73 eats what I feed it and has never had a hiccup -- not counting operator error! The only load I use one for is .44-40.

 

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

[Rio Brazos Kid]

Unless ya crumple a case seating the bullet, a FCD is a perfect solution to a non-existant problem for straight-walled revolver ammo. I can see using one when mass-producing reloads for bottom feeders, but for cowboy loads, a properly adjusted seat/crimp die does all ya need to do.

 

 

Exactly. Definitely a plus 1. The FCD on a straight wall pistol/revolver case is an exercise in futility. On a bottle necked case, it's a whole different system and that one works superb.

 

On straight walled pistol cases, nothing beats the Redding Profile Crimp die, if you need additional crimping, or a very heavy crimp. This die first puts a taper crimp on the round, and then selectively,(if adjusted to do so), adds a roll crimp, as heavy, or light, as you adjust it for. Beats the fire out of the LEE FCD on straight walled cases.

 

RBK

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

Update: Last night I got around to fiddling with the die and I'll begin by saying thus far, I'm a happy camper. As recommended, I used the locking nut on the bottom and this allowed me to allow the sizing (only comes into play if there's a screwy round) to come to the shell plate. In order to determine my crimp, I began by crimping and empty case. Once I had it close, I started crimping loaded cases and fine tuned it.

 

A difference I can see in the crimps from the Lee vs. the Dillon is that the Lee does not mark or scrape the top of the shell case and not surprising, as the name "roll crimp" suggests, the top of the case rolled into the crimp groove. I haven't had an opportunity to fire any rounds yet, but they load smoothly and if nothing else, they're pretty.

 

I suppose only time will tell if the Lee crimp affects the life of the cases. On one hand I can imagine that the more noticeable bending back and forth of the case mouth (rolling) might cause it to crack more quickly, but then again the Dillon tended to scrape the mouth of the case and by doing so, thinned it. I guess we'll see.

 

My main objective was to get a more complete burn and hopefully keep my pistols a bit cleaner. More on that later.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

AJ, Deadwood and I, may be the only people on the planet who find NO advantage to the Lee FCD for straight walled pistol cartridges. I load Large primer pistol cartridges on a Dillon 650 using Dillon dies with a standard Dillon roll crimp and I load small primer pistol cartridges on another Dillon 650 with Dillon dies with a standard Dillon roll crimp. Couple of hundred thousand rounds worth. Or more over a LONG time. I have NEVER had a turtle. Proper crimp with a standard crimp die and ammo doesn't turtle. Never had a bullet "walk" out of an Auto Pistol case either.

 

If there is a problem with the burn of the powder, the actual problem is a too light powder charge, too light bullet or the wrong primer or all of the above. With a very light load of Tightgroup (I'm a GAMER) with a light bullet, I use a small pistol Magnum primer for the slightly hotter flame. I still get some unburned powder. A heavier crimp won't change that. The only solution is more powder and or a heavier bullet. The heavier crimp will however, shorten case life but you'll get nice pretty cartridges.

 

Since you already have the Lee FCD, knowing the above won't save you any money for buying the die. Just don't expect miracles. You may actually get slight less unburned powder, but it probably won't be enough to tell without precision measurements.

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

AJ, Deadwood and I, may be the only people on the planet who find NO advantage to the Lee FCD for straight walled pistol cartridges. I load Large primer pistol cartridges on a Dillon 650 using Dillon dies with a standard Dillon roll crimp and I load small primer pistol cartridges on another Dillon 650 with Dillon dies with a standard Dillon roll crimp. Couple of hundred thousand rounds worth. Or more over a LONG time. I have NEVER had a turtle. Proper crimp with a standard crimp die and ammo doesn't turtle. Never had a bullet "walk" out of an Auto Pistol case either.

 

If there is a problem with the burn of the powder, the actual problem is a too light powder charge, too light bullet or the wrong primer or all of the above. With a very light load of Tightgroup (I'm a GAMER) with a light bullet, I use a small pistol Magnum primer for the slightly hotter flame. I still get some unburned powder. A heavier crimp won't change that. The only solution is more powder and or a heavier bullet. The heavier crimp will however, shorten case life but you'll get nice pretty cartridges.

 

Since you already have the Lee FCD, knowing the above won't save you any money for buying the die. Just don't expect miracles. You may actually get slight less unburned powder, but it probably won't be enough to tell without precision measurements.

 

 

+1

 

AND, if ya read the instructions for a Lee FCD, it has a sizing ring in it that POST-SIZES your loaded ammo. That's probably not a bad thing if yer loading for a semi and the concern is a bulged case stopping up the works and getting ya killed.

 

BUT, understand this, post-sizing loaded rounds WILL squash lead bullets so that they are undersized. Couple an undersized bullet with a light laod and you ain't got a prayer in a bakery oven of getting decent accuracy and will actually make shot-to-shot consistency worse.

 

With a proper charge of FAST powder like we all use for light CAS loads, you could get by with NO crimp in a revolver, so long as your brass was properly sized to start with, your bullet seated with proper neck tension, and you didn't have too much bell on the case to prevent it chambering.

Brass is a handy container for powder, bullet and cap, but beyond that, at the levels we shoot, it's just a gasket, and ayt real light load levels, not really even good at that.

 

Wanna prevent real light loads from spitting in your face? Wear bigger glasses.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

The Lee die does "post-size" the loaded ammo. That's the whole point. If does NOT size the case as much as your sizer (which takes the case mouth below spec) as your expander ball or powder funnel then expands the case to accept the bullet. The Lee is designed to make sure the loaded round is within spec and is sized to accomplish this. I have numerous crimp dies and most do a very good job of crimping. However, sometimes a case will be a little out of round, a bullet will have tipped a little during seating and caused a minor virtually invisible bulge, etc. In a Lightning rifle the ammo has to be perfect or the rounds simply won't chamber. Even on a 66 and 73 I have had the occasional round, out of thousands loaded, that stuck going into the chamber. Anyone who has shot much and has not had a round get stuck in a lever gun is a rare shooter. I have seen two OBD's from people pounding on the lever trying to close the bolt on a stuck round. The Lee simply provides another layer of protection to ensure your ammo will chamber and cycle correctly. I have and I'm sure a lot of shooters have case gauges. However, after loading several thousand rounds it is no fun to sit around dropping one round at a time into the gauge. I have found the Lee to iron out (so to speak) most ammo related problems. Just as a reminder to those reading this thread, the Lee Factory crimp die for straight cases is NOT the same as the Lee Factory Crimp Die for shouldered cases. If I am loading .32-20, .38-40 or .44-40 and want 100% reliable ammunition, then those calibers have to be dropped into a gauge as the Lee Factory Crimp Die for those calibers does not post-size the cases. It simply crimps them.

[TN Mongo, SASS #61450]

I find the LFC useful in loading rounds for my lever guns because I load "long" .38 (1.52 OAL) and not in the cannelure groove. It works well to crimp into the side of the bullet. Since I have used the LFC for these rounds, I haven't experienced any more bullets being shoved back into the case with my lever gun. Yes, with my RCBS seater/crimper die I could probably accomplish this also with a little more adjustment.

[Bison Bud]

Hey Buck,

 

While I'll agree that the typical seating/crimping die is quite adequate and that AJ's advice on reloading is always accurate and informative here on the Wire, I think the Lee Factory Crimp Die is well worth the cost and effort. While it supposedly "post sizes" the round, the sizing ring is right at or near the maximum spec. and in my experience most rounds barely even work the sizing ring. It is simply meant to keep the cartridge within maximum specs and is just one more level of consistency in my eyes. I've certainly never had any accuracy issues and being the picky sort that I am, I've even decapped rounds just to take the calibers to them to prove to myself that sizing down the bullet is really not an issue.

 

I also think that as a general rule, a good, firm, and consistent crimp does help the powder to burn a bit better, especially for lighter loads. However, it is important to develop enough pressure or smokeless powder does not burn completely or consistently. Over my chronograph my "Factory Crimped" rounds are very consistent (some of the best I've ever loaded) and I think the FCD really shines when one wishes to crimp outside the groove. As for splitting the mouth of your brass, either system set up for a good firm roll crimp is going to work the brass enough for it to eventually get brittle and split. I doubt that you'll see much difference unless you were crimping extremely lightly previously.

 

If you guys are coming to Guns of August, look me up! I don't get out as much as I used to, but I am signed up for GOA. Good Luck and good shooting to all. Adios

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

The Lee die does "post-size" the loaded ammo. That's the whole point. ........ Even on a 66 and 73 I have had the occasional round, out of thousands loaded, that stuck going into the chamber. Anyone who has shot much and has not had a round get stuck in a lever gun is a rare shooter.

 

 

I'm with ya Larsen, I think my subconscious was being anal (to match my conscious mind) and insisting that the die go all the way down to the shell plate to double check the sizing. I would venture to guess that short of someone who live fire practices, I go through more ammo than the largest majority of shooters due to the the fact that I load for myself and Sugah and we shoot practically every weekend with a good number of those are annuals thrown in. Additionally, I also load for Dahlin' who does not shoot as often. With the number of rounds shot over the past years, unfortunately I have learned many hard lessons and on occasion have seen those weird how'd-that-happen round that failed to be sized properly or wrinkled, etc. I'm all about looking at the rounds that I shoot, but dang if I want to put each one in a cylinder to check them. Moral of the story: If the die saves me one bad round in a match, it was worth the $20...and besides the cartridges are pretty and dang if I don't like pretty. Just wait 'till you see my new rifle....that is currently polished and disassembled ready for Graver Bill to do his magic.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

You'll like it, it does size the round. Heathers Cimarron Lightings had tight chambers, with the LFC the rounds always fit no matter what the brand of brass. 38sp is the only caliber I've used the LFC on for roll crimp. I've got some rounds that have been reloaded hundreds of times, never noticed any exccess wear on the case mouth.

 

For WB I do use the Lee factory taper crimp on 45acp for smooth feeding. Good Luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Barry Sloe]

I recently added the crimper to my 650. The first step is running it down to the shell plate and yeh, its way down. The next step is adjusting the crimp: put a round in and run it up into the crimper; screw the crimper screw down to where it touches, lower the bullet a touch, and for a light crimp go 1/2 turn more, heavy crimp a full turn more.

Hope this helps.

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

If ya have a caliper, measure the inside of a FCD. I just did. I don't have one in .38, but the same principle holds in .45. A round loaded normally, crimped with a Lee Seat/crimp die in .45, measures .475 OD at the bullet base Run it through the FCD, it comes back .474". Only .001, right? BUT, brass is springy. In order to reduce it to .474, the Lee FCD is .471 diameter. The round goes in, is squished down to .471, and when pulled out, rebounds to .474. Here's the problem. LEAD is not very springy. The die runs the .452 bullet through, wrapped with a total of .023 brass (both sides added together), squeezes it to .471, (.471-23=.448), then even IF the lead rebounds, which it won't, not near as much as the brass), the MOST the bullet can be is .451, and is likely more like .449-450 (ya can't really tell as any effort to disassemble will change it). but we know this, that lead was perfect at .452, and any reduction is bad juju for accuracy with LOW PRESSURE lead loads.

 

I never knew this was happening until I loaded some JHP bullets in ACP, and had an awful time keeping proper neck tension. The FCD was swaging the bullets down and with relatively thin R-P brass, I was not getting proper tension, so bullets would set back, etc. Went back to a regular Seat/crimp die and all was well.