You Make the Call

[Blastmaster]

This is at a match higher than a monthly match, with numerous possees.

 

 

You, as the MD, are informed that one entire posse shot a stage incorrectly. Due to the TO/RO not reading the printed stage directections correctly.

 

First guns were pistols and pistols were to be staged and returned to holsters rather than staged on table and returned to table. Doesn't matter, the posse shot the stage incorrectly.

 

SO?"?? This has been the second (at different matches and years) time I've seen an entire posse shoot a stage different than the herd.

 

I think a reshoot should be required for all shooters that didn't follow stage directions.... and an apology given.

 

Your call?

 

thanks

 

 

 

Blastmaster

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

This is at a match higher than a monthly match, with numerous possees.

 

 

You, as the MD, are informed that one entire posse shot a stage incorrectly. Due to the TO/RO not reading the printed stage directections correctly.

 

First guns were pistols and pistols were to be staged and returned to holsters rather than staged on table and returned to table. Doesn't matter, the posse shot the stage incorrectly.

 

SO?"?? This has been the second (at different matches and years) time I've seen an entire posse shoot a stage different than the herd.

 

I think a reshoot should be required for all shooters that didn't follow stage directions.... and an apology given.

 

Your call?

 

thanks

 

 

 

Blastmaster

If the directions not followed could have impacted the times in any manner than a reshoot should be ordered. If time constraints do not allow a reshoot then that entire stage should be thrown out for match scoring for all shooters. Have seen both happen and a third option is that shooters are offered a reshoot and if they decline are given a 10 second penalty plus original times. This happened when all shooters were given a shooters book that was clear and they chose to do it differently in conjunction with the Posse Marshall.

[Pit Bull Tex]

The posse should reshoot the stage.I would get to shoot one more stage.

[Rye Miles #13621]

If the directions not followed could have impacted the times in any manner than a reshoot should be ordered. If time constraints do not allow a reshoot then that entire stage should be thrown out for match scoring for all shooters. Have seen both happen and a third option is that shooters are offered a reshoot and if they decline are given a 10 second penalty plus original times. This happened when all shooters were given a shooters book that was clear and they chose to do it differently in conjunction with the Posse Marshall.

 

Well said Kid, I agree. Rye

[Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life]

Well stated, GCK.

[Blastmaster]

If the directions not followed could have impacted the times in any manner than a reshoot should be ordered. If time constraints do not allow a reshoot then that entire stage should be thrown out for match scoring for all shooters. Have seen both happen and a third option is that shooters are offered a reshoot and if they decline are given a 10 second penalty plus original times. This happened when all shooters were given a shooters book that was clear and they chose to do it differently in conjunction with the Posse Marshall.

 

 

Thanks Kid,

 

All shooters had a printed book.... but.... as sometimes happens, there are changes to the stage directions that only the RO knows about because of a Possee Leader Walk through. The rest is history

[crooked jake,4371]

If the directions not followed could have impacted the times in any manner than a reshoot should be ordered. If time constraints do not allow a reshoot then that entire stage should be thrown out for match scoring for all shooters. Have seen both happen and a third option is that shooters are offered a reshoot and if they decline are given a 10 second penalty plus original times. This happened when all shooters were given a shooters book that was clear and they chose to do it differently in conjunction with the Posse Marshall.

 

 

Yepper +1

[Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381]

The use of a berm marshal may have prevented this:

 

ROI Handbook

 

10. Stage Driver / Stage Marshal / Berm Marshal

The primary responsibility of a stage marshal is to ensure consistency between posses and to keep posses running on time.

[William Waddy]

It's pretty easy to pass judgment on these sorts of things while sitting in your favorite armchair, after-the-fact and with only partial information. When things like this happen, and they always will, somebody's got to decide whether the trauma and bad feelings associated with the kind of decision suggested in these posts is worth the tiny difference in scores and the possible hurt feelings that leaving things alone might also bring (e.g., this thread). That is never an easy decision and one that i would not care to second guess.

 

BTW, i do not know of a single shooter for whom this decision would have changed the final outcome, assuming this discrepancy in instructions might have generated even several seconds difference. I hope all of you will have the opportunity of facing similar decisions.

[Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963]

i would agree with GCK with the exception being if the posse shooting it incorrectly was disadvantaged and passed on the reshoot i would not add on a penalty for not wanting a reshoot. if the variation was an advantage, i think he's dead on. unfortunately not every shoot goes exactly as we hope or expect.

CC

PS thanks for ending my shootoff BM

[Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963]

It's pretty easy to pass judgment on these sorts of things while sitting in your favorite armchair, after-the-fact and with only partial information. When things like this happen, and they always will, somebody's got to decide whether the trauma and bad feelings associated with the kind of decision suggested in these posts is worth the tiny difference in scores and the possible hurt feelings that leaving things alone might also bring (e.g., this thread). That is never an easy decision and one that i would not care to second guess.

 

BTW, i do not know of a single shooter for whom this decision would have changed the final outcome, assuming this discrepancy in instructions might have generated even several seconds difference. I hope all of you will have the opportunity of facing similar decisions.

 

sometimes i read posts and wonder what drives the poster. are you actually hoping every shoot goes wrong at some point?!? whether or not it affects the scores, it may affect your attendance and reputation.

CC who drove 400 miles across 4 state lines each way to get there. my easy chair gets better gas milage.

[Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118]

This happened at Winter Range 3 years ago, 7 posses had to reshoot a stage because of an incorrect start position. They were given a choice, a 10 second procedural or reshoot the stage.

 

TB

[Danite SASS #27034]

Was there something else you wanted to win????????

[Oliver Loving]

IMHO: The stage not being shot as script directed is not just the RO/TO responsiblity. As shooter you also have a responsibility to know how it's to be shot n what sequence. Since everyone was handed out a stage guide, u can bet that more than one had read every stage n walked through some stages or all. They have opportunity to ask questions prior to commencing fire. I'm surprised that a question was not asked. I also believe that it's a disadvantage to the other posses because a lot can happen when holtering a revolver after fire. I'm sure each of you know that or have see a Pard drop a revolver while attempting to do so. It's easier to set revolves on the table, at least for me it is. This should have been brought to the Match Directors attention at the match. It's kinda late now, n serves no purpose except to incite feelings from the groups who shot the match. Cause we all know that if you shot in this match you know who shot correctly and who didn't. Anyway, u aint gonna move up in the ranking, n it's too late for a re-shoot. Pards, lets not stir the out house but continue on to the next match. Thanks for listening.

 

Oliver Loving

[Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator]

I agree with Gold Canyon Kid, reshoot or drop the stage for everyone.

 

At higher level matches it is often very difficult to schedule a reshoot for an entire posse. If it is possible, a reshoot is the best solution.

 

The posse leader, or the person that went through a stage walk through, is to blame not the posse. I am not in favor of any penalty when the shooters only followed the instructions they were given.

 

As stated, changes from the book do take place for a variety of reasons.

 

This is one of those situations where the match director may yell *X!!=*/-#*!

 

Roo

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

EOT had this happen last year...they chose not to do anything...just kinda pretend nothing was wrong.

 

Whatever.

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

That is WHY you have a posse leader "walk-thru" giv'n by the MD, BEFORE the shoot, so this doesn't happen

LG

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Yup, people make mistakes.

 

That's why sometimes folks have to make slight changes to how the stage will be executed.

That's why we do posse leader walk throughs.

 

And still, sometimes, the posse leader then makes a mistake.

 

So it leads to tough decisions for the match director sometimes.

 

Would a berm marshal be better? Some say "No" because then you will have folks doing their shoot on a day other than the main match. (Yah, I was surprised but happens and was well documented on the wire..)

But the main reason, is that you must have a LOT of very dedicated help available for a match and sometimes, getting berm marshals as well is more than the supporting clubs and manage.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

I don't really like the idea of a reshoot for something that is relatively minor like this case of returning the pistols to the table vs holster.

I would be very concerned that a reshoot would allow some to get better times for the 2nd run of the stage vs just living with the minor difference of as shot vs as written.

 

I think poorly of throwing out a stage entirely because a posse shot it differently than written.

 

It would be most appropriate to replace the posse marshal.

 

Nobody has asked this question of whether the posse is made up from a group from a single other club.

If the posse marshal is from the same club as the bulk of the posse members (remember this is a bigger shoot), there may be slopiness built-in.

 

The concept that the shooter must comply with the shooter book for the match without any changes from the posse marshal is absurd.

The posse marshal has been briefed by the match director with any last minute changes.

 

So I also dislike the concept of do the reshoot or take a P.

[McKenzie River Drifter, #74138]

I agree with Marauder on the R/O-Possee Martial walk thru prior to any large match. Several people can read the same line and get several diferent opinions of what had been said. If a different stage is shot by one or more possees, it should be reshot or a procedural awarded. More than likely if the same problem keeps ocuring, it will be corrected by the masses.

 

Just the view from my rocking horse McKenzie

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

In the end, the only really fair thing is probably to throw the stage out for the purposes of scoring. Otherwise, sure as god made little green apples, somebody is gonna get edged out of an award by somebody on the effected posse and ya got a lot of hurt feelings.

[Blastmaster]

Good day to the Fire,

 

GCK answered my question.

 

 

There was a posse marshal walk through but that PM nor assistant were not present.

 

"Hammer Down on Empty Chamber and Holstered" is fairly straight forward stage instructions for starting the stage and what was printed in everyones handbook. BTW, if I didn't make it clear earlier, the pistols started in the holster and ended in the holster, not on the table.

 

At Shooters meeting, it was stated by MD that any changes to the stage would be on the sheet posted on each of the Loading Table... check there for any modifications to the shooters book. There was no changes for that stage.

 

The stage in question was first stage for that posse and the assistant PM was notified of the error before they shot the second stage. The MD was notified at lunch break.

 

Addvantage??? Once can argue either way, I sure can, but still...... This post was:::: you are the MD and this is what is layed in your lap on day one of a two day shoot to make a decision on.... what would you do?

 

Tuff call for sure.

 

Thanks,

 

Blastmaster

[Wolf Wind-Walker #36748]

Ross

Good question!

Are you referring to the Saloon stage?

And congrads one your 49er and Top Gun win....ya done good....

regards...Wolf

[Blastmaster]

Ross

Good question!

Are you referring to the Saloon stage?

And congrads one your 49er and Top Gun win....ya done good....

regards...Wolf

 

 

My question was in general, what does a MD do. GCK answered it to my satisfaction.

[Jack Houston # 35508]

This happened at Winter Range 3 years ago, 7 posses had to reshoot a stage because of an incorrect start position. They were given a choice, a 10 second procedural or reshoot the stage.

 

TB

Yep...may have had something to do with the Posse Marshalls went through the stages in a meeting in the big tent, NOT a Walkthrough!

[saltbush]

where the times the same as the others ?

if same let it go

[Blastmaster]

where the times the same as the others ?

if same let it go

 

 

Who knows?

 

then your call would be????

[Anvil Al #59168]

where the times the same as the others ?

if same let it go

 

 

There is NO WAY to know how it WOULD have been.

 

I am with GCK. Reshoot or throw out the whole stage.

[Palindrome, SASS #54445]

"Due to the TO/RO not reading the printed stage directions correctly." This is why I keep asking if the TO/RO could please just READ the stage instructions instead of giving the posse his interpretation of what the instructions say. Assuming he can read aloud accurately, there shouldn't be any "not reading the printed stage directions correctly." Too many TO/ROs try to improve on the clarity of the instructions by describing the stage instead of just READING what the directions say. Pet peeve of mine.........

[Blastmaster]

There is NO WAY to know how it WOULD have been.

 

I am with GCK. Reshoot or throw out the whole stage.

 

 

I don't like the idea of throwing the whole stage out either. That stage could've been someone elses best/worst run and that could change the dynamics big time for him and whomever he is shooting against. Just saying.....

 

A lot of what if's are going on here for the poor MD to naw on before casing his decision.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

I don't like the idea of throwing the whole stage out either. That stage could've been someone elses best/worst run and that could change the dynamics big time for him and whomever he is shooting against. Just saying.....

 

A lot of what if's are going on here for the poor MD to naw on before casing his decision.

Hi Blastmaster,

 

Some stages just must be tossed. Here's an example. For the posses shooting the stage early in the day, the pistol KDs went down easily. As the day progressed they got progressively tougher. One Big Bore BP shooter on our posse could not get them down. He lobbied to have the stage tossed, which it was.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Blastmaster]

Hi Blastmaster,

 

Some stages just must be tossed. Here's an example. For the posses shooting the stage early in the day, the pistol KDs went down easily. As the day progressed they got progressively tougher. One Big Bore BP shooter on our posse could not get them down. He lobbied to have the stage tossed, which it was.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

 

I understand your point. Your example is a good one.

 

Counter point. I had a stage that if they had thrown it out for nearly whatever reason, then I would have made up about 10seconds on my competitor and I would have won the match. That is what I was thinking when I posted what you replied too.

 

Thanks for the example.

 

Speaking of throwing out stages..... which year was the big flood at WR and numerous stages were,, ahummmmm,,,, tossed?

 

Blastmaster

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Sure !!! Throw out the Only Stage I Ace-Ed ,,,,, causing me to not win that pink Caddilac .....

 

If a possie Marshall is not there for the "Walk-through" find someone who is there to be PM ......

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Seldom Seen #16162]

Stuff happens. Leave as is and move on.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

As I mentioned in another post, having a posse reshoot impacts about 10% of the shooters.

 

Dropping a stage impacts the other 90% or possibly ALL the shooters.

 

To too remember how upset folks were with that Winter Range where the stage had to be dropped.