Blastmaster Posted April 19, 2011 Author Share Posted April 19, 2011 As I mentioned in another post, having a posse reshoot impacts about 10% of the shooters. Dropping a stage impacts the other 90% or possibly ALL the shooters. To too remember how upset folks were with that Winter Range where the stage had to be dropped. Good point about the 10% vs 90% impacts on the match shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 I don't like the idea of throwing the whole stage out either. That stage could've been someone elses best/worst run and that could change the dynamics big time for him and whomever he is shooting against. Just saying..... A lot of what if's are going on here for the poor MD to naw on before casing his decision. I agree. Re-shoot would be best. BUT. A re-shoot for a whole posse is not always possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Waddy Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 As scorekeeper, I did a little calculating and figured out how the results would have changed had the stage in question been dropped. Turns out it would have changed results for a number of people, but most of those changes would have taken place for people on posses who shot the stage as directed. Is that fair? Among the members of the posse who shot the stage incorrectly, there would have been only 1 category rank change had the stage been dropped, and that was between two people both on the posse who shot it wrong (i.e., they both shot the stage the same). Would that be fair? Also, among the posse who shot the stage incorrectly, had the stage been dropped it would have made no change in overall rank for 4 of the 13 on the posse, it would have improved the overall rank for 5 of the 13 on the posse, and it would have hurt the overall rank for 4 of the 13 on the posse. Finally, in reviewing the overall average difference in raw time per stage for the offending posse as compared to the overall average per stage for all other posses, the overall average difference was 7.88 seconds, excluding the stage in question. In other words, the overall average raw score (excluding the stage in question) of the offending posse was 7.88 seconds slower than the overall average raw time for all other posses. However, on the stage in question the offending posse's overall average raw time was 8.06 seconds slower than the overall average for all other posses on that stage. This means that, on average, the offending posse did comparatively worse on the stage they shot incorrectly, only penalizing themselves it turns out. Of course I was not suggesting any desire that any shoot should ever have to deal with these sorts of issues. I was only invoking the old saying of walking a mile in someone else's shoes before you judge them. In my view, these sorts of issues are judgment calls that attempt to arrive at the best balance between competitive fairness and hacking off the least number of people. Those sorts of decisions are damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't decisions. Thus, for myself, I have learned not to be too quick in second-guessing a match director. We do everything we can to put together a perfectly fair match, and you can bet your britches we will learn from this error and put in place processes to prevent it from happening again - we are not stupid. Yet, anyone who thinks this game is perfectly fair is deceiving themselves, unless they are at the very least using only circular targets, instant replay with high speed cameras, etc., etc. With all due respect to the technically correct responses posted here, I believe a match director should be cut a lot of slack. Otherwise, we might as well look forward to the day we'll have to hire professional match directors and purchase those high-speed instant replay cameras. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cinch, SASS#29433 Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 MD's do what they can do... these folks always put on a great match. I recall doing a walk thru, instructing everyone at the shooters meeting, and encouraging everyone to just have fun with a stage we set up for one of our annuals. We had an alarm that would buzz if moved just right (or wrong) as it was moved from one table to the other. Almost everyone at the match received 5 seconds for the little buzz, almost... several days after the match when I had time to review the scores I noticed one posse had managed to move the buzzer deal without the alarm sounding and no 5 second penalty... after a couple of phone calls I learned that someone had removed the battery Another time after the awards were through and I was breaking down the match I found that some trees that we had planted, so that folks could bushwhack the bad guys from the trees... had been moved by one of the posse's so that they could see the targets better. I had no way of knowing how many posse's shot thru the tree's as the stage was set and how many got to shoot it after some dumb@ss remodeled the stage I sure wanted to choke someone after these!! Sometimes ya pay your money and ya take your chances... looking at the scores and saying shoulda, coulda, woulda (and looking at your wallet) will only make ya lose hair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted April 19, 2011 Author Share Posted April 19, 2011 As scorekeeper, I did a little calculating and figured out how the results would have changed had the stage in question been dropped. Turns out it would have changed results for a number of people, but most of those changes would have taken place for people on posses who shot the stage as directed. Is that fair? Among the members of the posse who shot the stage incorrectly, there would have been only 1 category rank change had the stage been dropped, and that was between two people both on the posse who shot it wrong (i.e., they both shot the stage the same). Would that be fair? Also, among the posse who shot the stage incorrectly, had the stage been dropped it would have made no change in overall rank for 4 of the 13 on the posse, it would have improved the overall rank for 5 of the 13 on the posse, and it would have hurt the overall rank for 4 of the 13 on the posse. Finally, in reviewing the overall average difference in raw time per stage for the offending posse as compared to the overall average per stage for all other posses, the overall average difference was 7.88 seconds, excluding the stage in question. In other words, the overall average raw score (excluding the stage in question) of the offending posse was 7.88 seconds slower than the overall average raw time for all other posses. However, on the stage in question the offending posse's overall average raw time was 8.06 seconds slower than the overall average for all other posses on that stage. This means that, on average, the offending posse did comparatively worse on the stage they shot incorrectly, only penalizing themselves it turns out. Of course I was not suggesting any desire that any shoot should ever have to deal with these sorts of issues. I was only invoking the old saying of walking a mile in someone else's shoes before you judge them. In my view, these sorts of issues are judgment calls that attempt to arrive at the best balance between competitive fairness and hacking off the least number of people. Those sorts of decisions are damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't decisions. Thus, for myself, I have learned not to be too quick in second-guessing a match director. We do everything we can to put together a perfectly fair match, and you can bet your britches we will learn from this error and put in place processes to prevent it from happening again - we are not stupid. Yet, anyone who thinks this game is perfectly fair is deceiving themselves, unless they are at the very least using only circular targets, instant replay with high speed cameras, etc., etc. With all due respect to the technically correct responses posted here, I believe a match director should be cut a lot of slack. Otherwise, we might as well look forward to the day we'll have to hire professional match directors and purchase those high-speed instant replay cameras. WW, Thank you for the statistic alalysis, very informative and goes to show, a situation can change the outcome to several shooters. Math is great but only great after you get all the data and time to juggle it. My original post was not necessarily pointed at any one match or person but people "assumed" stuff since I attended a particual match over the weekend. Only a handfull of people even knew about the situation,,, more do now. I liked the MD of that shoot before, during and after "that" match. I like all the memebers of that club too. I LIKE that MATCH. Still do. I will be back, for sure. I think the MD did an outstanding job in the walk through, the booklets (hmmmm booklets needed work, but that is for another thread) PLUS stating any corrections to the book would be posted (which they were)on each Loading Table. That is a lot of backup safeguards to prevent an occurance... But it happened anyway. Only suggestion would be to pick your PM better? But there is no gurantee with that and who is to say who is better that whomever? Different subject. I wanted to know how to handle a similar situation (posse shooting a stage incorrectly)so I could handle it or at least give sound advice to the MD if asked. GCK gave that info way back up on page one. At the shoot William Waddy spoke about, there was plenty of time for a reshoot. Hind sight says that is what probable should have happened. Or not! Was the error big enough in this case to cause any significant time differences? You tell me what your split time difference would be between shooting two pistols starting from leather and ending in leather vs from table back to table? Hands Flat on Table. Not much. I sympathize with the MD and whatever call he made was fine by me. I do a lot of damage control and minimize the damage because of factors outside of our control at the time for various projects where I am employeed. I know a person in authority has to sometimes just minimize the amount of hurt feelings (if any) and go on. The MD did a verrrrry good job with what was handed to him. Hats off to him and the club. Blastmaster I hope these YOU MAKE THE CALL!! are educational and informative to the Wire and those folks will take this new found knowledge and spread it out to their clubs and organizations. Blastmaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 ...I hope these YOU MAKE THE CALL!! are educational and informative to the Wire and those folks will take this new found knowledge and spread it out to their clubs and organizations. Blastmaster Hi Blastmaster, They are the reason I started reading the Wire. Thank you for yet another. Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 Not there for the Walk-through ,,,,,,,, Not Possie Marshal !!!! Want to be Possie Marshal ,,,,,,,,,,, Show-up for the walk through !!! At the shoots I have gone to there are plenty of folks that could do the job of possie Marshal ,,,,,,, if asked ... You never know they may just be an improvement over same old .... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Waddy Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 Blastmaster, I apologize for being so obviously defensive about this. I always like having you come to our matches and I know you meant no harm in your post. I realize that we just got lucky in not having this thing effect any of the category rankings. You can also bet that we'll learn from this experience and take steps to prevent this from happening in the future. In the end, my point is simply that the technically correct solution may not always be the best solution, especially once things have proceeded past a certain point. I think it is also interesting to see how throwing out that stage would have had implications mostly for those who shot it correctly, not for those who did not. Thus the conundrum faced by match directors when this type of situation occurs. Kind regards, WW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted April 19, 2011 Author Share Posted April 19, 2011 Not there for the Walk-through ,,,,,,,, Not Possie Marshal !!!! Want to be Possie Marshal ,,,,,,,,,,, Show-up for the walk through !!! At the shoots I have gone to there are plenty of folks that could do the job of possie Marshal ,,,,,,, if asked ... You never know they may just be an improvement over same old .... Jabez Cowboy JC, You listed very valid points and well worth taking the advise of. I hope all MD's consider what you wrote when assigning PM. One last item to add to your list. Not all PM have to be selected from the home club roster. It would be nice, but not absolutely necessary. Blastmaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted April 19, 2011 Author Share Posted April 19, 2011 Blastmaster, I apologize for being so obviously defensive about this. I always like having you come to our matches and I know you meant no harm in your post. I realize that we just got lucky in not having this thing effect any of the category rankings. You can also bet that we'll learn from this experience and take steps to prevent this from happening in the future. In the end, my point is simply that the technically correct solution may not always be the best solution, especially once things have proceeded past a certain point. I think it is also interesting to see how throwing out that stage would have had implications mostly for those who shot it correctly, not for those who did not. Thus the conundrum faced by match directors when this type of situation occurs. Kind regards, WW WW, Thank you. I knew where you were going and I too,knew you ment no harm. Dixie Desperados is a great club and I am proud to be a member of that club. The people in office are super as well as all the folks that pitch in, in their own ways, to make each shoot better than the last and to constantly improve the club. Thank you one and all. I know this matter will be discussed and actions will be formulated to prevent it from happening again. Just the way this club works. Second Fiddle and I really enjoyed your Blackpowder night shoot. I got to practice up on taking low light photos for the flame. It was neat. Best regards and a great job by you. I thank you personally for getting those scores out so quickly, Blastmaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Waddy Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Blastmaster, Thanks for the kind words. Please know that I have a very high regard and opinion of you and Second Fiddle. And thanks for those great photos! WW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 WW, Thank you. I knew where you were going and I too,knew you ment no harm. Dixie Desperados is a great club and I am proud to be a member of that club. The people in office are super as well as all the folks that pitch in, in their own ways, to make each shoot better than the last and to constantly improve the club. Thank you one and all. I know this matter will be discussed and actions will be formulated to prevent it from happening again. Just the way this club works. Second Fiddle and I really enjoyed your Blackpowder night shoot. I got to practice up on taking low light photos for the flame. It was neat. Best regards and a great job by you. I thank you personally for getting those scores out so quickly, Blastmaster I don't know the inner workings of the Dixie Desperados nearly as well as you do Blastmaster but, if this match was any indication, you hit the nail on the head. Matches that good don't just happen, they're the result of a LOT of hard work by a LOT of great people. I hope to come back and shoot with all the Dixie Desperados for many years to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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