A rule change at Convention that may cause heartburn with many of you...

[Blackjack Zak]

I think SASS is going about this the wrong way. There seem to be several issues they would like to address, 1) to make sure that the training for ROs is uniform 2) to make sure that it reflects the most current rule changes 3) to make sure that the training is of high quality.

 

 

I think as long as the training is left to individual trainers (no matter their knowledge or skill) there will be variations. If SASS wants to achieve the above goals they need to put together an online class, complete with a filmed lecture, an online chat where students can ask questions and on line exams. This would insure that every RO (no matter of what level) is trained exactly the same way; would allow students to take the class no matter where they are; and, allow them to be offered more regularly. It would also place the fees for the classes directly into the coffers of SASS. Universities and colleges have been doing classes like this for years.

 

As for the need for highly trained ROs, it reflects the ever increasing complexity of rules, which I believe is a serious factor in (or possibly just a symptom of) SASS's decline. Just my thoughts after 23 years of shooting SASS.

 

Doc,

 

You have stated the three items we are trying to fix. We believe the first step is to have better control on the information being taught by having better instructors, and more over sight of what is being taught. We can do that by vetting our instructor "selectees" better, and by giving them better "instructional technique" training. We have to remove those instructors who do not wish to stay current, and do not wish to teach any courses.

 

We have very up to date information that is available on the SASS website: Shooter Handbooks, ROI and ROII course manuals are updated EVERY YEAR in JANUARY after the summit, reflecting all the current rule changes. There is a private forum for RO III (ROII Instructors) to chat with other instructors about any issues, rules, clarifications, what ifs, etc.

 

Courses are offered regularly in most areas, but very few folks seem to want to take them......"you can lead a horse to water......."

 

We do have some geographical areas that there are no current instructors.....we are looking into a fix for that.

[Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381]

I hope Blackjack Zak and Snakebite aren't ready to lynch me yet, but I deliberately started this thread hoping to generate discussion on the issue. I agree completely with the three levels of training, and with wanting instructors who are not asleep at the wheel. Safety is number one in our sport.

 

I cannot say that I agree with how it was handled, because I know two very good ROIIs who will no longer be teaching classes. They have taught courses for years and do a good job, but now feel they have been slighted by the very organization to whom they have devoted a lot of personal time. I'm sure there are other ROIIs who feel the same way.

 

That said, don't take it personally, rather step up and offer to become ROIII certified. That's the cowboy way. Yes, it is going to be an inconvenience to many, but I truly believe the end result will benefit everyone. SASS also needs to step up and make sure there is an ROIII geographically within an hour's drive, who is willing to travel to clubs and put on the courses IMHO.

 

I plan to put my money where my mouth is and send Hipshot a letter volunteering to become an ROIII for my area. I hope others will do the same.

 

I also agree with Zak that online training can only go so far. You need some person to person contact just like the scuba diving organization PADI does. You can do your book work and testing online, but you still have to go get your first five dives under a training instructor. I envision the same with SASS.

 

If any of you have had the pleasure of being trained by Zak like I was, you won't regret the extra training.

 

Happy Trails,

 

Okie

[MMJ#89586]

I hate to ask this, but whats an RO.

[Carolina Cowboy]

I hate to ask this, but whats an RO.

MMJ it stands for "Range Officer" the 1 ,2 ,3 stands for the different levels of knowledge and experience to a point each different RO has, the rules are both simple and complex, it does take some time and experience in this game to be able to make the right call most of the time when being a spotter or the TO,but even two experienced TO's might make two different calls for the same secenarios , being a ROII will not make you a good TO or spotter, but it should...that is where this started.....a person wearing an orange pin should be able to go into any club at any event and be both a posse leader and a TO without any question....but that is not always true....here in Michigan we are blessed with some great RO"s of all levels and RO 1,2 classes are taught by Very good people....but have heard that is not true in all areas or clubs.....but even the best miss a call or get a call wrong sometimes....I do not have enough experience to know if this rule change is a good thing or not...but at least they are trying to address some of the problems

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

I hate to ask this, but whats an RO.

 

RO is short for Range Officer.

Relative to SASS and its usage there are 3 levels apparent of ROS.

RO1 is the lowest level and has a set of training material. It is useful for all shooters to read as it includes RULES that are NOT expressed in the shooters handbook.

This is a major bone of contention with many shooters. RO1 level training is enough to permit that holder to run the timer ie be a TO (timer operator).

 

ROII or RO2 is the next level up from RO1. This level is generally associated with running a posse.

The material presented is from yet another training document that contains fewer rules but appears to me to be more about attitude of the RO.

And rounding out the skill set of the RO.

The ROII holder WAS prior to this last convention permitted to teach the RO1 class.

 

 

ROIII also known as Black Pin RO instructors or some such name are those who are empowered to teach ROII.

(Someone once told me that the Black Pins all had to rub elbows with the Wild Bunch to get this certification.

I hope that was one of many things.)

I have only met two Black Pin ROs.

 

My 2 cents

[Grizzly Dave]

Grizz. I'm sorry to hear that you have not been able to find a RO II class in all this time... just how long have you been looking for one? Do you have any idea how many folks in your area are wanting a class? It would be interesting to know if any RO II classes have been offered withing a reasonable distance from you. If you are a member of a local club, how did they get their RO II training? It sounds like you had the opportuity to take the class, but chose not to take it. Scheduling is often tough, and sometimes you must make choices.

 

Snakebite

 

Snakebite, yes, I chose not to take it. With my financial situation that Regional was the only out of town shoot I was able to do the past two years, and I chose to shoot rather than take the class. I took RO I last fall, since then I have not seen a RO II class offered except at out of town matches that would require hotel stays for me to attend. One local club I shoot at was trying to get some interest together for an RO II class but nothing has materialized yet.

 

I am just trying to illustrate that if folks only choice for RO I is at a Regional or above, many will ether not have access to classes, or will choose other activities such as shooting side matches as I did.

 

I have no intentions of ever running a posse or a timer, I'm too fat and slow to get out of my own way much less keep up with the faster shooters we have today. But, I would like to be RO II trained for my own information if nothing else.

 

I'm all for standardizing curriculum, having required demonstrations, props, or whatever, I just think a better approach would have been to try that first, and use this down the road if it was still needed.

 

Okay, enough of that, have a nice day, best of luck with your changes.

Grizz

[royal barnes sass #5792]

Hmmmmmmmm, rub elbows with the Wild Bunch to get to be an ROIII? I had shot on a posse with Tex, spoken to the General, the Judge and Hipshot but rubbed elbows? Don't remember it.

 

J.M. Brown and I are currently the only two active instructors for N.C. and S.C. We taught an ROII class in S.C. in October and we have an ROI scheduled in N.C. in January. In the last year we have had to cancel two scheduled classes due to lack of interest. You can lead 'em to water! We also have a number of refreshers attend the classes when we do get a chance to teach. There are those who really want to keep up with changes. I find that I never teach a class without learning something. Some "what if" will arise that will make you stick your nose into that book that you thought you knew. I look forward to the possibility of taking a refresher instructor course.

[Doc McGee, SASS #51213]

Huh, an here I ben shooting this game fer mor'n eight years.

 

Never have had any RO trainin and didn't figger ah needed it. Most o tha rules are common cents anyhow?

 

Whut are I missin?

 

Doc McGee

[Texas John Ringo, SASS #10138]

Huh, an here I ben shooting this game fer mor'n eight years.

 

Never have had any RO trainin and didn't figger ah needed it. Most o tha rules are common cents anyhow?

 

Whut are I missin?

 

Doc McGee

 

 

As far as I can tell, Nothing.

[BJT]

The likely result is that only black badges will be teaching classes. So either the ranks of black badges become so swelled, the problem remains the same or ro1 training becomes much more rare.

 

Odd that there was no notice that the ro2 training must have been flawed for there to be a problem.......

[Blackjack Zak]

I hope Blackjack Zak and Snakebite aren't ready to lynch me yet, but I deliberately started this thread hoping to generate discussion on the issue. I agree completely with the three levels of training, and with wanting instructors who are not asleep at the wheel. Safety is number one in our sport.

 

I cannot say that I agree with how it was handled, because I know two very good ROIIs who will no longer be teaching classes. They have taught courses for years and do a good job, but now feel they have been slighted by the very organization to whom they have devoted a lot of personal time. I'm sure there are other ROIIs who feel the same way.

 

That said, don't take it personally, rather step up and offer to become ROIII certified. That's the cowboy way. Yes, it is going to be an inconvenience to many, but I truly believe the end result will benefit everyone. SASS also needs to step up and make sure there is an ROIII geographically within an hour's drive, who is willing to travel to clubs and put on the courses IMHO.

 

I plan to put my money where my mouth is and send Hipshot a letter volunteering to become an ROIII for my area. I hope others will do the same.

 

I also agree with Zak that online training can only go so far. You need some person to person contact just like the scuba diving organization PADI does. You can do your book work and testing online, but you still have to go get your first five dives under a training instructor. I envision the same with SASS.

 

If any of you have had the pleasure of being trained by Zak like I was, you won't regret the extra training.

 

Happy Trails,

 

Okie

 

Okie,

 

Your points, as usual, are well taken. I hope, sincerely, that your Pards who have been teaching for years as ROIIs do not feel slighted...this is not the intention. We have a problem of lack of consistency and inadequate teaching throughout the country....and we had to take measures to fix it.

 

Unfortunately, there will be some good RO2s out there who will need to get certified, through a common process.....a process by which ALL those teaching as ROIIs will have to go through. This will help screen those who do not care to stay up on the rules, and haven't given a course in a long time.

 

It will also give those who have been teaching and doing a good job, an opportunity to get certified and recognized appropriately, and continue to do a good job.

 

If those two fellows you talked about can make it to a shoot where there will be an RO Committee member, then we can make it happen. Where do they live?

 

They can always come out to Winter Range next year in Feb (nice weather) and teach the course here? I would be happy to sit in for them! Let me know the details via message.

 

As I mentioned, the issue is that just because someone has been teaching for a some time, doesn't necessarily mean that they are teaching the right thing. I am sure this IS NOT the case with your Pards. I am sure this is limited to very few, but we still need to put them through the process - it really is the only way to get the "bull by the horns"....

[MMJ#89586]

Everything makes more sense now, thank you!

[Hellfire # 35333L]

How about this....I applied to get certified for RO3, references included,endorsed by Palewolf, and have never heard anything back. That was 2 years ago. I really enjoy teaching RO1 to the newer shooters, but guess I won't be doing that anymore. We do have an RO3, but he doesn't do much. I'm even willing to travel. I took RO1 and 2 from Palewolf and Coyote Calhoun at a regional the first year it was offered.Have done a couple of refresher courses and read the online course material quite frequently. Don't know what more I can do......

 

 

Hellfire

[Blackjack Zak]

How about this....I applied to get certified for RO3, references included,endorsed by Palewolf, and have never heard anything back. That was 2 years ago. I really enjoy teaching RO1 to the newer shooters, but guess I won't be doing that anymore. We do have an RO3, but he doesn't do much. I'm even willing to travel. I took RO1 and 2 from Palewolf and Coyote Calhoun at a regional the first year it was offered.Have done a couple of refresher courses and read the online course material quite frequently. Don't know what more I can do......

 

 

Hellfire

 

 

Hellfire.........I PM'd you.

[Checotah]

I think a lot of the concern comes from a bit more remote areas such as mine, where the number of shooters per square mile is much less than other, more populated areas.

 

If more RO-II Instructors could be allowed in each area, it could certainly ease the situation. We have one locally, with Pale Wolf as a fall back, but that's only been, up until now, for RO-II courses. With this change, there will be increased pressure on that sole RO-III. I know there are 2 or 3 of us locally who would be willing to step up to RO-III, but the "you only get one" restriction inhibits that effort.

 

I guess I don't understand the limitation on the number of instructors. If there were a solid qualification, certification/recertification process in place, I can't see why there would be the need to limit the numbers. I kinda see it like Certified Flight Instructors: they must go through a rather rigorous process to become a CFI, and recertify regularly, but there is no restriction (as far as I know) on how many can be in any given area.

[Mink Shoals Bandit, #49388]

How about this....I applied to get certified for RO3, references included,endorsed by Palewolf, and have never heard anything back. That was 2 years ago. I really enjoy teaching RO1 to the newer shooters, but guess I won't be doing that anymore. We do have an RO3, but he doesn't do much. I'm even willing to travel. I took RO1 and 2 from Palewolf and Coyote Calhoun at a regional the first year it was offered.Have done a couple of refresher courses and read the online course material quite frequently. Don't know what more I can do......

 

 

Hellfire

 

 

Same here...................Mink...............

[J-BAR #18287]

It has been several years since I went through RO II class.

 

Should I now decline to run the timer if asked by the posse leader?

[Hellfire # 35333L]

J-Bar,

 

No, why should you not run the timer if you know what your doing. I have shot many matches with a couple of the best RO's I know and they have never took either RO1 or 2.. They know the rules as well as most RO3's...They just don't want to sit down and take course. Old timers that just have there own opinions. Some people think that if they take the RO courses they have to run the timers. Not true.....We need more communication within our own clubs....A good RO3 or TG

should take care of these problems....

 

 

Hellfire

[Blackjack Zak]

It has been several years since I went through RO II class.

 

Should I now decline to run the timer if asked by the posse leader?

 

 

JBar,

 

I hope you mean that in fun.....as that is NOT AT ALL what we are saying. I am sure you are just fine running the timer!

[Blackjack Zak]

Same here...................Mink...............

 

 

Mink,

 

PM me directly with your details. I will try to get to the bottom of it.....

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

Blackjack Zak,

 

I guess the thing that concerns many is that it appears as though SASS does not trust the RO II holders to teach.

What else do they not trust us to do?

If you (SASS) expect us to continue to TO then you guys should really make it clear what is going on here.

 

My problem is that I see this as a bandaid to head off getting new ROs that might not get taught right.

That still does NOTHING about the less than good ROs that are still out there !

A lot of them are older types that have not kept up since getting their pins.

Is this the prelude to mandatory retesting?

And the prospect of difficult times in getting classes taught.

Scheduling classes is a tough task as timing is everything.

 

In part I agree with you and Snakebite about in person instructors.

The problem that exists with that is that no matter what you do.... there is still a prospect that the instructors will not all be up to the task in the same way.

That being said the computer is not able to present multiple faces and do a different job with each student.

An online chatroom per class period or an email answer person would fulfill the needs to get answers to questions.

 

As for those that are older and not willing to do computer things well......

They could of course be the old types that are not keeping up with SASS rule changes.

So they really need to keep up and either get to a class or be online.

 

Isn't that what this is really all about anyway.

 

Hacker

[VICIOUS, SASS#8014]

OK so a RO 3 is a instructor. BUT do we need to call it a "BLACK Badge". There is lots of colours out there .Pick one that may not tread on someone elses long time named cource .

[J-BAR #18287]

JBar,

 

I hope you mean that in fun.....as that is NOT AT ALL what we are saying. I am sure you are just fine running the timer!

 

 

I appreciate the vote of confidence; I just figured that if the instruction was suspect, maybe my qualifications were suspect also.

[Snakebite]

Hacker;

 

Do you think that evey single RO II that is out there is a good instructor, or would be if they decided to teach? I'm not asking you if they know the rules, I'm asking if you think that just because they have the RO II pin that they are automaticly a good instructor. Right now, they can ALL teach the class whether they are a good instructor or not.

 

 

Trying to improve the quality of instruction is something that the Rules committee, the Current RO III instructors, the WB, and the majority of the TGs think is a good thing. That is why they approved of this action. We need some control over who teaches. Right now we have none. There is no good reason for anyone to try and make something bad out of this.... it is not a bad thing... it is a good thing.

 

Snakebite

[Hellfire # 35333L]

Snakebite,

 

Your answer just now should be all that anyone needs to know. Right on.

 

 

Hellfire

[Guest Copper Mart]

I've had both excellent and poor instructors. I'm for some sort of standardization, if that can be achieved.

 

Copper Mart...

ROII

[SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER]

I was disappointed when I first took the ROI & ROII classes. I thought "that's it." There is no reason anyone should not pass one of these classes. Does passing the classes make everyone a good RO or capable of teaching ROI....no. There are a lot of people who haven't taken either, but care enough about the sport to learn the rules of the game just as there are shooters who have passed both classes and still don't know squat. There are several ROIII instructors that give their opinions on rules in the "You Make the Call" threads and are wrong, so they are quite possibly teaching shooters the wrong way. There are even examples of RO Committee members making different calls on rules. The current process is flawed and if this can get a more uniform training platform in place then we have nothing to lose.

[GunClick Rick]

Unions?

[Dalton Masterson, SASS #51139]

Sad thing is that this last fall, we were hopefully going to get one of us certified as RO3 at our State match. Didnt do any good, as we only had 1 person sign up for the training. Kind of hard to get certified if you dont have the shooters available to train in your area... We had a WB member, and an RO3 in attendance even.

 

I agree that there needs to be some better teaching going on out there. Some folks are NOT teachers, and it does no good to read the script verbatim and hand out a test. Basically anyone that took the RO2 class was then certified to teach RO1. (which is not Range Officer 1 by the way, its Range Operations...)

 

Snakebite, I know my wife is still interested in teaching it, and would be very good at it, as she is a very good Middle School teacher. I figure if she can handle those little heathens, she can handle nice cowboy type folks.

DM

[John Boy]

A most interesting Wire Thread!

And Snakebite and Blackjack, Thank You. For publicly communicating the feeling and opinion of the Wild Bunch and the RO Committee that there is a need for consistency - quality and quantity within the SASS organization respective to RO I and II instruction and the CAS shooters on the posses at all level of matches

 

IMHO, unfortunately, it will not happen overnight. But initial stop gaps can be put in place and there should be an overall phased approach to maximize 'consistency - quality and quantity'. These stop gaps should be a Top Down approach. For instance, the appointment of Regional RO III's that would have oversight for the RO III's within their region. Another would be communication to TG's that posse TO's have the sole responsibility to the shooter on the line. As it is now, they are primarily an additional RO counting hits and misses. As for the RO's that Snakebite accurately states:

The Spotters in this game are some of the most important people at the match.... yet the competency level of MANY spotters is far below what it should be. I see it at EVERY match I attend.

This is true at many clubs and really is posse dependent. There are posses that have excellently qualified RO's and it dwindles down from there to sub par. Indicative of the number of posts on the Wire ... "What's The Call?"

To those posse RO's, it is really the responsibility of the club TG and Match Directors to poll the Posse leaders to have identified those RO's that are in need of the current rules 'refreshment' or initial formal RO I or RO II training. The same applies to Loading and Unloading Offiers too. Otherwise, suggest that being a brass picker would be within line of their qualifications.

 

Another Stop Gap: There are 30,391 registered members of the SASS Wire. How about a monthly quiz about current changes and the lesser known rules of SASS? Some members will respond but there are substantially many more lurkers on the Wire that will read and follow the quiz only and remember the answer!

 

The Overall Phased Approach ... a need for a plan with estimated time lines to optimize 'consistency - quality and quantity'.

Quantity: Is there an inducement for any SASS member to be a 'qualified' RO I or II other than to wear the badge and say they are one? NO. Think about this.

Consistency and Quality: Blackjack, a Power Point is an excellent concept. CAS is a visual identification sport of right or wrong and I would hope that the PP's have more pictures than text. As for the text, remember that most newspaper articles have a Flesch-Kincaid Reading level of 7th to 8th grade. For the Flesh Reading Ease Level, optimum is 60-70 on a 100 scale ...

The formula for the Flesch Reading Ease score is:

206.835 – (1.015 x ASL) – (84.6 x ASW)

where:

ASL = average sentence length (the number of words divided by the number of sentences)

ASW = average number of syllables per word (the number of syllables divided by the number of words)

 

Might also want to run these 2 tests against the Handbook and the RO Manuals to see how they score ... Hint

 

Blackjack, you made 2 points that are part and parcel of Quality and Consistency:

Courses are offered regularly in most areas, but very few folks seem to want to take them......"you can lead a horse to water......."

The average age of cowboy shooters, I have been told is around 57 years old, and many of our folks don't even care, or are able, to have Internet access. It would be difficult to limit this to online.

 

For the Phased Approach, the Power Point could later be expanded for incorporation into Computer Based Training for RO I and RO II courses. I agree that CBT is not the best of the best learning methods but a 'half a loaf is better than no loaf' because ... it is a statistic that 52% of individuals over 50 years old have Internet connection. So it's a shoe in with our membership having an average age of 57. Plus the 'half a loafs' wouldn't have to wait a year to attend a sit down class, plus for many expending time and money to do it. They could do it in the comfort of their home any time that would be convenient with the test questions at the end. And remember, there are 30,391 registered members of the SASS Wire. Does SASS have 50% of it's membership as RO I & II's now? I think not

 

Plus, the CBT would have uniform Consistency and Quality. Also, the dependency on RO III's would decrease. Am sure many who chase their butts from State to State to provide the classes would appreciate CBT. And for those that 'are in need' would appreciate doing a refresher in the comfort of their living room too !

[Reuben McCoy Rankin # 34239]

Wouldn't it be nice to have a set of rules that were so simple, that multilevel instruction was not necessary in the first place...

 

Yeah, I know, I might as well wish for world peace while I'm at it.

 

 

Didn't it use to be that way!!!!!!

[Boon Doggle]

How about starting with ONE clearly written rule book?

[Desert Pete SASS #42168]

This was done to gain control of what is being taught. There are many ROIIs out there that do a really good job of teaching the RO I course. They stay on top of the changes, and actually do their homework before teaching a class. There are also many ROIIs that do a really poor job of teaching the RO I course. They don't have a clue about changes or clairifications to the rules. They propagate their Own version of the rules and simply DON'T TEACH the course material correctly. This is a problem that is way overdue for correction. There is an ongoing effort to get all instruction standardized. It is time to exercise more control over whom is allowed to teach this very important class. There is a new Power Point that will be made available to those who teach the RO I course. It is expected to be of great assistance to the instructor. I expect that this change will add to the existing number of RO instructors in SOME AREAS. I also expect to see a few RO instructors retire from the or be retired from the program. All RO instructors will be required to recertify on a annual or bi-annual basis. This action was supported by virtually all of the RO instructors. A list of RO instructors will be made available on the wire so that any club in need of a class can contact an instructor that covers their area. Instructors are expected to travel, but if there is no instructor available within your area, then someone will be appointed.

 

Rules inforcement, or the lack of it, is one of the biggest problems in the game..... in fact, it is the NUMBER ONE problem. The best way to approach correcting this is to provide the best instruction that we can for both the new shooter, and to those takeing a refresher course. The more members we have that actually know the rules, the more likely it will be that the rules are followed by EVERYONE. This should also really help to increase the pool of qualified people to act as T.O.

 

The fee for the RO I course is $10.... $5 goes to the club, and $5 goes to SASS to pay for the pin and the shipping. There is no charge for someone taking it as a refresher. This is a good thing for SASS. I would expect everyone who wants to play by the rules and see the rules fairly enforced would welcome this action.

 

Snakebite

 

Took the ROI class several years ago but never had the opportunity to take ROII. The scheduling just did not work out. It has been on the far back burner for me but I always thought I would get around to it. I do think it is a good idea because my ROI class was taught by a cowboy who spend a whole lot of time telling war stories and pontificating. Cleaning up that foolishness is a good thing.

[Snakebite]

John Boy........... you have some excellent ideas. I will explore some of them.

 

Snakebite

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

Do you think that evey single RO II that is out there is a good instructor, or would be if they decided to teach? I'm not asking you if they know the rules, I'm asking if you think that just because they have the RO II pin that they are automaticly a good instructor. Right now, they can ALL teach the class whether they are a good instructor or not.

 

 

Trying to improve the quality of instruction is something that the Rules committee, the Current RO III instructors, the WB, and the majority of the TGs think is a good thing. That is why they approved of this action. We need some control over who teaches. Right now we have none. There is no good reason for anyone to try and make something bad out of this.... it is not a bad thing... it is a good thing.

 

Snakebite

 

Not every person is a good instructor. Agreed.

But the ROIIs are available to teach.

Like any other learned knowledge you get out of it what you put into it.

Meaning that the best ROs are those that keep up with the rules and learn the best ROing techniques.

Book/classroom learning is ONLY a START!

 

There is control over who teaches, those that pass ROII.

 

Improving quality of instruction is useful but ONLY affects NEW ROs or those who are being forced to recertify.

 

Unless the WB and/RO Committee are "each the teacher" qualified this may not prove useful.

 

BUT the big problem that I still see is that this action ONLY fixes part of the problem.

Assuming that the major problem is the quality of ROing in SASS.

 

Their are many ROs/TOs that do not keep up to date on the rules.

And rule on things the way they think the rules should be and not how they are.

Having BlackPins teach RO1 will not fix this problem.