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A rule change at Convention that may cause heartburn with many of you...


Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381

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Lessee... Montana is the 4th largest state... it's 705 miles from the Idaho border to the North Dakota border on I90/I94... twelve to fifteen hours, depending on fuel stops, rest stops, and eats...

 

... we have ONE RO III.

 

The good news is you can make it from Wyoming to Canada in 1/2 the time.

 

And yes the last name in the Alias is after the Canyon and Creek

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Now I know this is not going to over very well, but what the heck......................................

 

Joe Gotta Gun, SASS# 95,500 attends a big match after his first 3 monthly shoots. He sees there is an RO1 and RO2 class being offered. He takes the RO1 class in the morning. Okay, now he's an RO1. Now he can act as an RO1 the next time he shoots. But then, after lunch he takes the RO2 class. And now he is an RO2 and can teach RO1! There is something very wrong here.

 

I have watched RO2's running the timer and counting misses. And then have the bal#s to argue with the spotters!

 

This RO thing really need to be fixed. RO Committee, do your thing. I for one am 100% behind the change.

 

Just George

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Guest Copper Mart

I've been shooting since the early '40s. A couple of years ago I became interested in SASS and started to study up on it. I read the manuals, re-read the manuals and attended my first shoot with borrowed guns. I was hooked. Went out and bought a pair of Vaqueros, a TTN and then a 92 from a friend. A couple of shoots later, after realizing the 92 was really slow compared to what I was seeing the '73 shooters were doing, I acquired a '73 and had a pard slick it up a bit. Since then I have shot a bunch of annuals, a couple of state and regionals and who knows how many monthlies. Along the way I picked up backup guns, and some backups to the backups and some more, just 'cause. I'm active in three clubs and just enjoying myself half to death. Last fall, I decided that it was time to take the ROI course and did so at the NW regional (thanks Palewolf). The ROII course was being offered the next day and I thought "Why not". I paid my money and passed the course. I'm really not sure that the ROII course was the wisest choice. Yeah, I know the rules having read them many, many times, downloaded them and printed them out and had them bound. I'm just not sure that I can keep them all in my head all of the time and be able to act on them in a timely manner. Am I ready to teach an ROI course? Not on your life! I need another year or two shooting and acting as an RO before I might feel confident enough in my abilities to hold myself out as qualified for that responsibility. Would I like to be an ROIII? Maybe in another few years assuming I live that long. In summary, it seems to me that the RO Committee is on the right track and I salute their efforts.

 

By the way Palewolf/Hipshot, where's my ROII pin?

 

Mart...

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When I took the RO1 and RO2 classes, our instructor was using printed material. I don't know where it came from, but we all had the same papers to read, same tests and a passing grade requirement. Is there (or not) required (standerdized) tests to pass? Did my instructor make this up on his own? I feel like he did an excellent job, and we all learned alot. I don't feel qualified to teach, but I have been a posse marshall a few times and will continue to do so unless someone gripes too loudly about my techniches.(or spelling) If an RO2 is expected to teach, there needs to be instruction on how to teach, where to get study and test materials, etc...

Cash

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I've been in this game for nearly a year. I'm signed up for an ROI class in January. I agree many rules are common sense, but here are two examples in my first year of shooting that are things I did not know. First, I was in the middle of a stage and a shotgun target fell over before I got to it. OK, most of you know what to do, but I didn't and the timer that day was our resident a-hole and didn't say a word. So by the time someone yelled to shoot where it was, I lost a good bit of time. Minor thing, but I didn't like that I didn't know what to do. Second example, I had yet to afford a shotshell belt, but instead was using a shotshell pouch on my holster belt. I had a rifle round "stored" in front of a pair of shells in case I needed to reload. Didn't know that was illegal, and could have had a DQ. Little things, and if I read enough, I guess I would have known. But I want the RO certification and want to learn it right. Luckily, we have two very good instructors here....

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Just George, Copper Mart, and Cash Duckett,

 

You guys are missing the real problem. Chances are the Lessons (RO 1 & RO 2), were taught perfectly, and there was not one thing missing from the instructions. Done 100% Perfectly. And the students properly passed the tests.

 

The real problem is the rules NOT PROHIBITING taking the RO 2 tests, until the RO 1 had at least 1 years experience as an RO 1, and maybe 2 years would be better. It's ludicrous to allow back to back testing.

 

Fix the rules where they need fixing. Don't make a problem bigger than it already is by putting in burdensome, (and in many cases SILLY) restrictions. You don't get promoted to PFC and SGT on the same day. This new rule requiring a ROIII to teach RO1 courses is simply a Knee Jerk attempt to fix a problem that need not have existed in the first place. Making it more cumbersome and difficult to gain RO 1 testing isn't a proper fix.

 

I of course agree that Uniform Teaching Materials and Techniques, should be used universally. Again, that's a management problem if such procedures are not being followed. That too can be fixed, without cumbersome and ornerous rules.

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I was a POST certified Firearms Instructor. To pass the course which is two weeks long and given by both FBI instructors as well as local certified officers. The class was a pass- fail type of school and you could be sent home if you didn't pass each stage of instruction. We started with 52 and graduated 23. We had good instructors and others that made it hard to stay awake. I took criminal justice classes at LSU and it was the same when it came to course instructors. Some you did not want to stop and others you could not wait for the class to end. When we were in our last week of school we had to teach a 30 min. class that was filmed. The instructors would take you into another room and critique you. Why could the SASS officials not require anyone who wanted to teach a class do the same. Grizz stated he hated his class, well he probably left without obtaining the information that is required. When you are bored you are not listening. It would not be that hard of a thing to do and you could send this person a certificate or a letter pointing out the area's they needed for improvement. SASS would have a very strong showing if ever required to show it's standard of training

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I'm fairly supportive of this rule. I didn't read all of the other comments on here, but I'm sure I'm not the only one that believes that it's a very different thing to DO than to TEACH.

 

I do agree that all shooters would benefit from taking the course, whether they intend to act as an RO or not, I DO NOT agree that all shooters are qualified to be acting RO's, nor qualified to TEACH other RO's. The better a player understands the game, the better they might be as a quarterback, but there are a LOT of great quarterbacks out there that would NOT make good coaches.

 

Personally, if you want to increase the knowledge base of your shooters, I'd recommend that those courses taught by ROII's continue, but drop the fees to $5 and make it a "SASS Range Safety and RO I Prep Course". All shooters would be encouraged to take it, and shooters could take it and be a "Range Safety Technician" or "RO understudy" or something until such time they could take a class under a RO III. During the "understudy" time, the potential RO I would get to practice going through the motions, but wouldn't be sent out there on his own until he's been checked off by an RO III.

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Perhaps it is somewhere in the three pages of posts, but how do you go about becoming certified as an ROIII?

 

Also, I kept seeing references to "Black Badges." Is this the same as a ROIII? I thought you had to win EOT to get a black badge. Confused minds want to know. :blush:

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Just George, Copper Mart, and Cash Duckett,

 

You guys are missing the real problem. Chances are the Lessons (RO 1 & RO 2), were taught perfectly, and there was not one thing missing from the instructions. Done 100% Perfectly. And the students properly passed the tests.

 

The real problem is the rules NOT PROHIBITING taking the RO 2 tests, until the RO 1 had at least 1 years experience as an RO 1, and maybe 2 years would be better. It's ludicrous to allow back to back testing.

 

I'm not missing the point at all. The above is what I'm saying. Back to back testing and then letting the new RO2 teach RO1 is just not right!

 

Just George

 

Fix the rules where they need fixing. Don't make a problem bigger than it already is by putting in burdensome, (and in many cases SILLY) restrictions. You don't get promoted to PFC and SGT on the same day. This new rule requiring a ROIII to teach RO1 courses is simply a Knee Jerk attempt to fix a problem that need not have existed in the first place. Making it more cumbersome and difficult to gain RO 1 testing isn't a proper fix.

 

I of course agree that Uniform Teaching Materials and Techniques, should be used universally. Again, that's a management problem if such procedures are not being followed. That too can be fixed, without cumbersome and ornerous rules.

 

Just George

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how many times have your either

herd complaining bout black pin holders (not up to date)

or even madeethe complaint yer ownself

 

now that SASS wants>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to improve that

 

geeese

and many git their socks sucked between their toes

:blush::blink::blink::blink:

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If the TGs did approve it. They obviously failed us.

 

The RO Committee is working on a subset of the real problem.

Bad ROing.

 

Remedy;

1. consolidate and simplify the rules into one place.

2. standardize the teaching. CBT is the only real viable way to go.

The demographics of SASS may contraindicate this path but they are also part of the problem.

They don't keep up with the rule changes.

They make rulings the way they think the rules ought to be. (may also apply to other ROs)

3. With CBT (or perhaps easily attendable classes) force/encourage recertification every 2-3 years.

4. Have new ROs get tutledge/mentoring from more experienced types.

 

Only after one completes the RO class, regardless of how good/bad the instructors are, can the learning really begin with practical application of the rules. By doing.

CBT can help with that as well.

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First I gotta say I didn't read all the replies, but I'm gonna put in my .02 anyway knowing this may have already been said.... (Ya'll can feel free to not read my post)

 

Seems pretty silly to me. Why not just bypass the ROII's entirely if they can't be trusted to teach the ROI course properly and require the ROI class be taught by a ROIII? By extension, why not eliminate the ROII's entirely? I don't see any point in their existance if this change goes thru.

 

Angus

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Seems pretty silly to me. Why not just bypass the ROII's entirely if they can't be trusted to teach the ROI course properlyAngus

 

 

I once took me a computer programing class

100,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the very-very-very basics

 

the dude teaching was a PHD in computer programing

 

the dude could NOT even COME close to teaching basics any MORE

 

we later became friends

he is NOW a multi million air $,$$$,$$$.00(pulled off slot maching programing in vegas)

 

we aint friends any more..........................................milage if it dont vary

mileage will change

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Interesting timing on this thread. As a ROII Instructor Candidate I taught the ROII course at the convention (with the assistance of and mentoring by Dusty Lone Star and Nevada Turtle, and grading by Tex. Thanks, guys. Margaritas are on me.) So I can back up and talk about what it takes to APPLY for the ROII Instructor qualification. At this point I don't have any official word as to whether or not I passed the trial by fire.

 

At Outlaw Trail I started asking how to get into the ROII Instructor qualification program. I finally got to Hipshot, who emailed me an application. I've been wanting to do this but put it off until I figured I had enough experience to do it well. Additionally I've been a posse marshal at 3 major matches this year. I don't want to make any bad decisions. The way to avoid this is to know the rules backwards and forwards. The way to know the rules backwards and forwards is to teach them. This means studying them enough to teach them. Then you're confronted by student questions, some of which will challenge you. You don't get this by just reading the handbooks.

 

Here are some of the questions on the application:

 

How long have you been a SASS Member?

Are you willing to travel?

Have you traveled over 50 miles to teach an RO Course?

Are you a Territorial Governor?

Have you attended a Territorial Governor Summit?

Have you attended a SASS EOT, National or Regional Territorial Governors Meeting?

Have you ever been a Match Director or Range Master for a SASS Sanctioned Match?

If so where?

Have you ever been a Posse Marshal at a SASS Sanctioned State, Regional or higher match?

If so where?

Number of RO I Courses taught.

Please list places and dates taught.

When did you take the ROIICourse?

Who was your instructor for the ROII Course?

Who will be your teaching partner for ROII Courses?

Are you computer savvy? (Do you feel comfortable in downloading files and printing them at home or office.)

Do you have any other teaching experience?

 

I contacted Billy Boots, who was teaching the ROI Course at Comin'At'Cha with Dusty Lone Star and arranged to assist them in teaching it. (Thus I traveled over 800 miles to teach that class. Does that qualify as traveling?) I also sat through Billy's ROII course to see how he did it. (Thanks Billy and Dusty.) It should be noted that Dusty helped me download the instructor's version of the handbooks, the ones with the test questions and answers. If you don't have these, you can't teach the course. To get to the handbooks you have to be an ROII instructor.

 

Tex had given me a ROII Power Point Presentation but told me there wasn't a good one for ROI, so I wrote one and used it to teach a ROI class in New Mexico. Then I spent about a week tweaking it for further use. Tex apparently didn't know Blackjack Zak was working on one. I would have saved about 1,000 hours of work had I known. (exaggeration I think.)

 

Then I begged 42 ROII instructors for recommendation letters and got 2. (Kidding about the 42.) 2 are required.

 

I volunteered to teach the ROII course at the SASS Convention with Dusty. I studied for same, and taught most of it with his and Nevada Turtle's help.

 

Now, if accepted, I'm aware that I actually have to teach several courses a year. One of you mentioned he didn't take an ROII course when one was available because he would have to miss the side matches. Well, the instructor is missing those side matches, too.

 

Wild Bunch matches are side matches, and I enjoy them. I expect I'll have to miss a few.

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Perhaps it is somewhere in the three pages of posts, but how do you go about becoming certified as an ROIII?

 

Also, I kept seeing references to "Black Badges." Is this the same as a ROIII? I thought you had to win EOT to get a black badge. Confused minds want to know. :mellow:

 

Howdy Buck, To answer Your question, It's a Black Pin, ( Just like Your Yellow and Orange ones ) Not a Black Badge

Wimpy

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Cap'n, I know! That is part of my reasoning. RO II instructors currently have to make sacrifices such as skipping side matches or other activities to teach. If RO IIs are no longer allowed to teach RO I, the instructor pool is diminished, and those same folks have to sacrifice even more time, energy, and events to teach the RO I class as well.

 

I appreciate the sacrifices the instructors make, not only come class day, but the prep work as well. I don't want them to always have to miss side matches or whatever just because they are the only one available to teach the classes.

 

I've already stated my position in previous posts, I won't re hash it again.

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I took my RO II about 5 years ago and I have sat in on and been a Active partisipant 3 times to refresh my Knowledge ,,,,,,, But I am not sure I know a "Black Badge" and I have never seen the RO III course offered .....

 

I have attended Every Canadian SASS REGIONAL ever held ,,,,,,,,,,,,, But now I think My efforts have been waisted .....

 

I have Jumped though the SASS hoops to no end ....

 

I don't think I will bother futher ....

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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how many times have your either

herd complaining bout black pin holders (not up to date)

or even madeethe complaint yer ownself

 

now that SASS wants>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to improve that

 

geeese

and many git their socks sucked between their toes

;):wacko::angry::angry:

 

You wear sockies? Next thing you'll be tellin' us is you wear undies... :mellow::angry:

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Jabez,

 

Don't give up till you know all the facts and what the new system will get us. You said you never saw a "Black Badge".

 

So who gave you the R011 course? It had to be a RO3 trainer. There is no RO3 course. These RO3 instructors are chosen by The Wild Bunch by recommedations of the RO comm. Or a RO Comm. Member. Based on their experience.

 

Now what I really like to do is teach RO1 as I truly believe this is what starts everyone out even. My belief is have a new shooter do a few local matches and then sit them down for the RO1 course..Now they have a general idea of what we're talking about. Lots and lots of shooters think that if they take the RO1 course, they're going to be obligated to be a TO.

 

Thats far from the truth.......I need them to know how to handle the UL table and the loading table first. Then when they got that down. They need some spotter training...good spotters are far and between.Thats a major problem as we speak.

I think there should be some sort of a spotter class.Everyone should take it as at some point we all spot and we have to

do it right.

 

I'm really looking forward to the new system, but agree with John Boy that the CBT is the best and quickest way to get this

going.

 

 

Best Regards

 

 

Hellfire

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Is the Wild Bunch Blind, Out of Touch With Reality and Insensitive to the ROIII's and the Capability for SASS Members to Become Certified as ROI and ROII's?

Go back and reread Capt Baylor's post ... http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showto...p;#entry2069144

Then go to the NRA Education and Training link ... Become an NRA Certified Instructor Read and click around. Might want to start with NRA Range Safety Officer Program Then click on NRA Education and Training

Then one might want to click on Find a Course Near You OK, pick Range Officer Safety Program and pick your State for available courses being offered

 

Nowhere in any of the NRA Educational Programs does it say to become a Certified Instructor, the likes of:

Are you willing to travel?

Have you traveled over 50 miles to teach a Course?

Have you attended a Territorial Governor Summit?

Have you attended a SASS EOT, National or Regional Territorial Governors Meeting?

Have you ever been a Posse Marshal at a SASS Sanctioned State, Regional or higher match?

If so where?

These are analogous to such as:

Have you attended a NRA Convention?

Have you attended a Camp Perry or Whittington match or other Regional Matches?

have you been a NRA Match Director at sanctioned NRA Regional Matches?

 

Now, connect the dots for SASS ROIII and ROI and ROII to the NRA Educational Programs. I see many missing dots in the three SASS programs

 

Might offer, the Wild Bunch and the delegated entity, the RO Committee, read and adapt applicable capabilities in the NRA Training and Education Program to fit and correct the identified ineffective inefficiencies of the RO III and RO I and II program ... and not to mention the burden placed on the ROIII's and SASS members wanting to attend courses and be certified ROI and ROII's

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A big part of the commitment to be certified as a RO III is to be available to other clubs who desire the training but don't have a trainer as a part of their club.

 

Hipshot was very specific about that when it was my opportunity to take the advanced training. It should be understood that if you hold that class of badge you will train outside your club. If you can't make that commitment than the black badge should be offered to another SASS member.

 

IMHO only.......

 

Youngblood

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Did you notice tis line?

 

".....but if there is no instructor available within your area, then someone will be appointed."

 

I don't think that there will be any less opportunity for anyone in a remote area to receive training.... in fact, there may well be an increased possibility of quality training if more instructors are appointed in these remote areas. I have noticed that several instructors often show up at the same matches in some of these remote areas. I don't think that it is unreasonable to require at least some coordination by both the instructor and the student to receive training. It should be available, but it is not within the scope of the program to deliver personal, hands on, training to every door step upon demand. It takes some coordinating. Utilizing the large area matches is a good way to get quality training and refresher training out to the membership. It is incumbent upon the shooter to make an effort to get the initial training, and to recognize when they ought to get refresher training. We are doing our best to make quality instruction available.

 

We receive many applications from people wanting to become RO instructors. Some are turned down.... not because the applicant is not qualified, but because there are already plenty of ready and willing RO instructors within the travel area. Just wanting a "Black Pin" is not reason enough to be certified as an instructor... there must be a need in your area. Many RO instructors find that there is NOT enough work in the area to keep their Instructor status current! There are also some "Black Pins" out there that are NOT teaching classes. We are in the process of updating our list of certified instructors that are actually teaching courses. Those instructors that are no longer instructing will be ask to remove their Black Pin. Right now there are some areas where the RO instructors aren't getting enough opportunities to teach. Many times a local RO II chooses to teaches an RO I class rather than utilize the local RO instructor. This is often a bad situation for both the instructor and the student, and it is going to change. If there is an RO instructor available, then they will be utilized. There is no good reason for not allowing the RO insructor to do he/her job..... when they are available. I've seen this happen before, and it often envolves some personal conflict or someone's EGO getting in the way. NOT GOOD. I hope to see an increase in the number of refresher courses in the near future. There have been many changes and clarification over the last few years that folks need to be made aware of, and a refresher class is a good way to learn new things and reinforce others. It is also very apparent that we need to spend some time directing our training at how to be a good Spotter and T.O. The Spotters in this game are some of the most important people at the match.... yet the compentency level of MANY spotters is far below what it should be. I see it at EVERY match I attend. Some one just wants to stand there and put up a finger now and then. They don't have a clue about the concentration that is involved to do a good job of spotting, they don't know the rules and they don't take the time to learn them, they talk and gab or spend their time being a cheer leader.... everything EXCEPT doing a good job of spotting. Next to a outright Cheater, there is nothing worse in this game than a incompetent Spotter or T.O. We hope to help out in this area by providing better training.

 

Snakebite

 

 

Here is a suggestion to release some spotter responsibility and free them up to look for other things. SIMPLY paint the targets after each shooter, just a spot or two is all that will be on the target. Should'nt add that much time in between shooters.

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So when is SASS going to help get folks black badge certified? There are only so many teaching spots available at the large matches. My club sent SASS a request to send someone to certify black badges in 2010, but that didn't happen.

 

The Sand Creek Raiders hold RO 1 and RO 2 classes each year during the Cowboy Action Shooting Clinic and during our Rocky Mountain Regional Raid. I'm not the instructor, but I see a burden placed on our one black badge instructor.

 

I realize some folks do not want to be certified, but my opinion is you are more knowledgeable about the game and safety. The majority of our club is RO 2 and several folks would like to be 3, but can't get an opportunity to get trained.

 

We need SASS to create more opportunities for folks to get a black badge. I agree consistency is key. Just give shooters the chance please!

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Here is a suggestion to release some spotter responsibility and free them up to look for other things. SIMPLY paint the targets after each shooter, just a spot or two is all that will be on the target. Should'nt add that much time in between shooters.

 

 

Here is your can of paint.... Go for it.... and hurry. :blink:

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The material is already on line right here on the SASS webpage. There will shortly be a Power Point available on line or maybe DVD that will provide guidance. As for folks not seeking training... that does not even make sense to me. Why would someone turn down the training if it were offered by an RO III instructor rather than an RO II who may or may not do a good job. The instructors will have at least been monitored to see that they meet compliance. Just because Ol Joe got his RO II pin many years ago does not necessarily make him qualified to teach others. That is one of the problems....... many of the Ol Joes are NOT QUALIFIED, yet are teaching the course, and doing it wrong! We need to correct that problem. I see guys teaching the RO I that are so out of touch with what the rules say or how they are interpreted that it makes me cringe. Sure.... its OK if you get someone who is good at the job.... the best way to ensure that is to require that all who teach have completed at least some minimum requirements.

 

Snakebite

 

Snakebite: I would like to be considered as an RO 1 instructor in W.Texas. I also have a fellow shooter who teaches quite a bit under the current regulations ( Eli Blue ) Grusome Gulch Regulators.

Thanks

Caprock Leatherneck RO1-2

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Here is a suggestion to release some spotter responsibility and free them up to look for other things. SIMPLY paint the targets after each shooter, just a spot or two is all that will be on the target. Should'nt add that much time in between shooters.

 

 

Not gonna work if the range does not have each stage separated with berms, or if more than one posse is shooting. It would require stopping all shooting up and down the line each time a shooter finished. And that is most ranges and most matches.

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Everyone please stop saying black badge this, black badge that.

 

It's a PIN, not a a badge.

 

A SASS black badge is an entirely different thing and has nothing to do with the RO program.

“Badges! We ain’t got no badges. I don’t have to show you any steenkin’ badge!”

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Everyone please stop saying black badge this, black badge that.

 

It's a PIN, not a a badge.

 

A SASS black badge is an entirely different thing and has nothing to do with the RO program.

So... black 'pin' sounds kinda.. hummm... well ya know... not that there's anything wrong with that... ahemmmm.

 

So.. what is a black badge in SASS then?

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