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Clyde

Looking for good TG's Any left...

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kinda rude arent ya

TG's vote as the clubs ask them to

 

it takes a 3/4 majority, not just 49% - 51%

329+- clubs were represented

 

Hey Mike I'm a paying customer, I sponsor, berm marshal, travel, and have attended alot of different matches in the past 10 years. I just asked the question. The results speak for how TG's voted. If people were not interested, they wouldn't read the thread and reply, makes me think you and others are interested...

 

 

Leadville Clyde

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Hey Mike I'm a paying customer, I sponsor, berm marshal, travel, and have attended alot of different matches in the past 10 years. I just asked the question. The results speak for how TG's voted. If people were not interested, they wouldn't read the thread and reply, makes me think you and others are interested...

 

 

Leadville Clyde

 

 

ok

you did not ask on yer post how they voted

 

you said you waz lookin for gud ones

 

please explain what good is

 

I voted as my clubs wanted

 

am I good???????????????????????????????

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"Hey Mike I'm a paying customer, I sponsor, berm marshal, travel, and have attended alot of different matches in the past 10 years. I just asked the question. The results speak for how TG's voted. If people were not interested, they wouldn't read the thread and reply, makes me think you and others are interested..."

 

 

Leadville Clyde

 

 

 

ok

you did not ask on yer post how they voted

 

you said you waz lookin for gud ones

 

please explain what good is

 

I voted as my clubs wanted

 

am I good???????????????????????????????

 

 

Madd Mike -

 

Don't sweat the small people. You're a good TG.

 

Clyde -

 

I don't appreciate what you're implying. You used an awful big paintbrush with that "good TG" comment, and you splattered a lot of fine folks. I know because I've sat with them over and over again in TG Summits for the past five years. By the way: You're not the only cowboy that rides for the brand!

 

Maybe I took your words wrong; maybe you just don't do well at putting your thoughts into words. In either case I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and just wave your comments aside like a buzzing fly. My responsibility is to the folks that elected me their TG, and I do my damnedest to live up to their expectations.

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None of this amounts to anything so long as a TG may vote any way they choose without accountability.

Until the votes of every TG are made public (linked with the club(s) they represent) - the process is meaningless.

 

I don't claim to know what goes on at other clubs but I can tell you this. At the club I represent, the votes are cast via e mail and are recieved by the TG and 2 additional people. The votes are counted and verified by all 3 people and that is the way that I as their TG vote. It makes no differece if I agree with them or not, I vote the way the club wants it voted.

The results are also made available to anybody who would like to see them. I keep PRINTED copies of all votes recieved and make the final numbers public to the board who then make them public at the next shoot.

 

To say the TG's are not honest is a slap in the face! If you think you can do a better job, please step up, pay your Life Membership dues and pay your own way to Las Vegas and pay your own room and board. If your not willing to step up and do the job, you have not earned the right to complain how somebody else is doing it! JMHO.

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Thanks for proving what I suspected of you. You won't believe this, but I really wanted to hear what you had to say. Of course, you really didn't have anything constructive to say. Well, except that comment earlier about you being an "a**hole." (your term, not mine) You are dead on about that!

I find it much easier for people to have ideas but they don't follow through on it. Plans, especially the details that make it work, are what is hard. I didn't attack you for having an idea. I wanted it taken another step forward for Pete's sake. Geeese. Thanks for proving my point.

 

Steeldust Dan

 

Ok folks that's getting a little to personal and a bit out of hand. SD, by reading your post I can "guess" you have never met Phantom. Maybe if you ever get to talk to him in person you might find out you have more in common with him than think. Scary huh???

 

 

And GOODY,,we know you voted how we asked you to.

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Ok folks that's getting a little to personal and a bit out of hand. SD, by reading your post I can "guess" you have never met Phantom. Maybe if you ever get to talk to him in person you might find out you have more in common with him than think. Scary huh???

 

 

And GOODY,,we know you voted how we asked you to.

 

Well that's because Goody is...good. Or so sez Biggest Heart... :mellow:

 

Oh, and yer okay too NC ;)

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[flame suit on]

The only idea I don't like so far is the direct, one member, one vote. The reason I fear this idea is that, in my humble opinion, this game should be directed by the active membership. If I were to guess, less than ½ of all memberships sold are "active" (shoot more than once per year). If SASS membership is representative of our nation as a whole, (not likely), but for argument's sake, let's say 38% of all members vote.

 

That could, roughly translate into rule by those that no longer care enough of about the sport to participate. The reason I say this, is for those members over 15 years of longevity, do you know of any that dropped out as the "two-revolver" per stage became a fixed part of the game? Are those folks still miffed by the need to buy another revolver, how many members (in name only), purchased their SASS #, keep it up, and yet, never participated. Yet, by it's nature, a mail-in ballot is simple to mark, and mail back in; whereas getting the proper gear and carrying their carcass out to a range and participate requires effort, money and commitment in time.

 

Is this likely? Possibly not, but why expose the vast majority of shooters that do participate to having to overcome a large, fixed in time, very likely to be out of date already, inactive minority in each and every major decision? This would be extremely onerous with the 2/3 majority required for rule changes.

 

Even tho' I fit in that category of member for several years, nope, sorry, no support for that here.

[flame suit off]

 

I do like open accountability for votes by TGs. Even if poorly phrased, it's apparently an issue for a number of folks, and just like accountability in government, not a bad thing to discuss and make attempts to improve.

 

Oh yeah, go ahead and cast yer stones... but I already recognize that like most folks, I can poke holes in an existing system, but rarely come up with solid ideas on how to fix them. But, recognizing problems can sometimes lead others to have those epithanies to come up with solutions. It takes both the nay-sayer and the problem-solver to improve things. So, there, you have step one... I'll leave it you that like to throw stones to take it to step two. :mellow:

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I don't claim to know what goes on at other clubs but I can tell you this. At the club I represent, the votes are cast via e mail and are recieved by the TG and 2 additional people. The votes are counted and verified by all 3 people and that is the way that I as their TG vote. It makes no differece if I agree with them or not, I vote the way the club wants it voted.

The results are also made available to anybody who would like to see them. I keep PRINTED copies of all votes recieved and make the final numbers public to the board who then make them public at the next shoot.

 

To say the TG's are not honest is a slap in the face! If you think you can do a better job, please step up, pay your Life Membership dues and pay your own way to Las Vegas and pay your own room and board. If your not willing to step up and do the job, you have not earned the right to complain how somebody else is doing it! JMHO.

 

Last things first - I pay my dues, I abide by the rules and I HAVE EVERY RIGHT to question a system that fails to be open and provide accountability.

 

When a representative can do whatever they wish and can not be held accountable for their (secret) actions, you put them in a position to become corrupted.

You put them in a position to say "I know the club wants X - But I am a TG and I know better, so I will vote Y - afterall, no one will ever know"

 

Adam - I don't know you.

But I do know that TG's are people and people are frail, subject to their own prejudices and whims.

And sometimes people place their own opinions above those of the people they are supposed to represent.

To believe that this does not happen or has not happened would be the height of naivete.

 

As for how many people count the votes - your printed copies of the clubs wishes - it means NOTHING unless your club can see for themselves that you actually did vote that way at the convention.

And that record is not public.

 

Someone having a life membership - paying their way to Las Vegas - or becoming a TG is solely representative of their bank account - it has no bearing on their character.

 

Most TG's, I'm sure are honest representatives - Why the heartache at an idea that would expose those that are not?

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Leadville Clyde is a good guy, don't be too hard on him. I think that he is just very disappointed that we can't seem to get rid of a some rules that the majority of the membership doesn't appear to like. Not too pleased about the FCGF going down either... I use to oppose it, but it's popularity has grown to such a point that I believe it should be an official category. It seems that a small number of members are able to control what passes.

 

I voted Yes, yes, yes, yes, for both clubs that I represent..... and I did so after getting all the input that I could from the membership.

 

O-Well

 

 

Snakebite

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Well that's because Goody is...good. Or so sez Biggest Heart... ;)

 

Oh, and yer okay too NC :wacko:

 

Good news! Them noogies I ordered for you for Hanukkah have arrived. I'll save them for you, and deliver em real personal like. Might through in a couple of wedgies as well. :mellow:

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Good news! Them noogies I ordered for you for Hanukkah have arrived. I'll save them for you, and deliver em real personal like. Might through in a couple of wedgies as well. :mellow:

 

Oooooooooh - Wedgies!!

 

;)

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Nicklaus hit one into the wind back in 73(?) and hit the flag stick... what does this mean?

 

I agree with trust but verify, mostly because Reagan said it...

 

and let's forget about Ben Hogan!

 

http://www.hickoksports.com/history/hbhogan.shtml

 

G (who still plays Hogan irons ;) )G ~ :mellow:

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Eureka! I found it! (This thread, I mean.)

 

I voted my club's wishes, which were yes to all items. I also voted as the three clubs who gave me proxies wished. They were not all yes!

 

Publish how I voted? No problem. Propose it as an agenda item. I will encourage my club to vote for it because I vote as they wish.

 

Clyde, questioning things is fine. However, your premise here is insulting to those of us who vote as our clubs wish. My club was outnumbered three to one by the other votes I carried. What makes you think everyone agrees with what folks on the Wire want. Where are the facts supporting that the "majority of the members" wanted any rule to pass other than the Burgess rife in B-Western.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS Those of you who are so worried your TG did not vote your wishes, maybe it's YOUR problem. You elected them! Stop picking on the rest of us and deal with your own club. ;)

 

PPS Yes, red big letters means something. At least I didn't use all caps :mellow:

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I don't claim to know what goes on at other clubs but I can tell you this. At the club I represent, the votes are cast via e mail and are recieved by the TG and 2 additional people. The votes are counted and verified by all 3 people and that is the way that I as their TG vote. It makes no differece if I agree with them or not, I vote the way the club wants it voted.

The results are also made available to anybody who would like to see them. I keep PRINTED copies of all votes recieved and make the final numbers public to the board who then make them public at the next shoot.

 

To say the TG's are not honest is a slap in the face! If you think you can do a better job, please step up, pay your Life Membership dues and pay your own way to Las Vegas and pay your own room and board. If your not willing to step up and do the job, you have not earned the right to complain how somebody else is doing it! JMHO.

Afraid Im gonna have to call at least HALF a BS on this Adam. I been at LOTSA TG meetings, I was there when they voted to do away with the empty hull rule. Only to see it QUICKLY overturned because a WB member said he didnt like the idea of overturning it. Can you say that all the TGs there quickly ran out and called all their club members before they did this, or did they just sucombe to the powers that be? I dont think it happens like this so much anymore, but it used to be quite commonplace to make rules right there on the spot. Thats why your club should be shown how you voted, like you and IJ do. But it should be done at ALL clubs, so people can do THIER voting accordingly.

hud

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Well that's because Goody is...good. Or so sez Biggest Heart... :mellow:

 

Oh, and yer okay too NC ;)

;):wacko::angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :ph34r::lol:

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PPS Yes, red big letters means something. At least I didn't use all caps :mellow:

 

Sometimes less is more :wacko:

 

:angry:

 

GG ~ ;)

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Hey boys its not personal. I just asked the question and some got offended. The votes have spoke. Don't members have the right to ask? Since a few think i'm questioning integrity and assuming TG's are bad. What makes a good TG?

 

My TG voted like I wanted... He's a really good TG... and I'm pretty sure he paid his own way. Don't read into it.

 

Leadville Clyde

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Hello Clyde,

 

Here are the basics from The Territorial Governors Page on this Website.

"A Territorial Governor is:

A life member of SASS

 

Appointed/elected by the SASS affiliated club members he or she represents

 

The affiliated club's official representative at SASS Territorial Governor meetings

 

Committed to serving the interests of his or her club consistent with the promulgation and preservation of Cowboy Action Shooting and "the Spirit of the Game."

 

RO II Certified.

 

Computer savvy with current e-mail address on file at all times.

 

Role Summary

 

Territorial Governor is the elected/appointed representative of his or her SASS affiliated club. The Territorial Governor's term of office expires each December 31st. There is no limit to the number of terms one individual may serve.

 

The Territorial Governor not only represents his constituents to the national body, but also represents the national body to the membership. As with any good politician, the Governor may have personal reservations regarding a position adopted by the Governors, but is always in a position to support and defend "the party line".

 

The SASS Board of Directors recognizes the Territorial Governors must be in a position of more than mere advisors for this vision to work.

 

While the SASS Administrative Office and the SASS Corporate Officers have their roles and responsibilities and are chartered with making the decisions necessary to run the company, those issues, policies, and decisions that directly impact the rules of the Cowboy Action Shooting? game will be voted upon by the Territorial Governors.

 

Questions and issues may originate anywhere, but once they are forwarded to SASS Headquarters, the SASS national organization will frame the questions for the Governors, collect the Governor responses, and construct the proposed revised rules or policies. These proposed revisions will then be reviewed and approved by the Governors.

 

While many of the Territorial Governor votes will be at the national and regional match meetings chaired by the Wild Bunch, the Territorial Bulletin will generally be used to set the agendas and often used to distribute voting issues. Instructions will be provided in the Bulletin describing the response process.

 

Specific Duties

 

Territorial Governors gather comments, criticisms, needs, suggestions, and proposed rule changes, and communicate these to the SASS Board of Directors

 

Maintain current knowledge regarding Cowboy Action Shooting and SASS, its history, philosophy, purpose, presence, direction, and Spirit of the Game

 

Communicate the Cowboy Action Shooting story locally/regionally to further the growth of the game

 

Represent and support SASS, its philosophy, and its purpose to club members

 

Network with other clubs and Territorial Governors"

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS I ain't a boy! :mellow:

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Hello Clyde,

 

Here are the basics from The Territorial Governors Page on this Website.

"A Territorial Governor is:

A life member of SASS

 

Appointed/elected by the SASS affiliated club members he or she represents

 

The affiliated club's official representative at SASS Territorial Governor meetings

 

Committed to serving the interests of his or her club consistent with the promulgation and preservation of Cowboy Action Shooting and "the Spirit of the Game."

 

RO II Certified.

 

Computer savvy with current e-mail address on file at all times.

 

Role Summary

 

Territorial Governor is the elected/appointed representative of his or her SASS affiliated club. The Territorial Governor's term of office expires each December 31st. There is no limit to the number of terms one individual may serve.

 

The Territorial Governor not only represents his constituents to the national body, but also represents the national body to the membership. As with any good politician, the Governor may have personal reservations regarding a position adopted by the Governors, but is always in a position to support and defend "the party line".

 

The SASS Board of Directors recognizes the Territorial Governors must be in a position of more than mere advisors for this vision to work.

 

While the SASS Administrative Office and the SASS Corporate Officers have their roles and responsibilities and are chartered with making the decisions necessary to run the company, those issues, policies, and decisions that directly impact the rules of the Cowboy Action Shooting? game will be voted upon by the Territorial Governors.

 

Questions and issues may originate anywhere, but once they are forwarded to SASS Headquarters, the SASS national organization will frame the questions for the Governors, collect the Governor responses, and construct the proposed revised rules or policies. These proposed revisions will then be reviewed and approved by the Governors.

 

While many of the Territorial Governor votes will be at the national and regional match meetings chaired by the Wild Bunch, the Territorial Bulletin will generally be used to set the agendas and often used to distribute voting issues. Instructions will be provided in the Bulletin describing the response process.

 

Specific Duties

 

Territorial Governors gather comments, criticisms, needs, suggestions, and proposed rule changes, and communicate these to the SASS Board of Directors

 

Maintain current knowledge regarding Cowboy Action Shooting and SASS, its history, philosophy, purpose, presence, direction, and Spirit of the Game

 

Communicate the Cowboy Action Shooting story locally/regionally to further the growth of the game

 

Represent and support SASS, its philosophy, and its purpose to club members

 

Network with other clubs and Territorial Governors"

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS I ain't a boy! ;)

 

No...but ya sure might be the next Pale Wolf Brunell :wacko:

 

GG ~ :mellow:

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Hey boys its not personal. I just asked the question and some got offended. The votes have spoke. Don't members have the right to ask? Since a few think i'm questioning integrity and assuming TG's are bad. What makes a good TG?

 

My TG voted like I wanted... He's a really good TG... and I'm pretty sure he paid his own way. Don't read into it.

 

Leadville Clyde

 

 

No, you didn't.

 

#1 You clearly stated that you're "Looking for good TG's, any left?" That's a 100% statement that you don't think any are left. If that's not what you meant, you shouldn't have said it.

 

#2 You asked if "you guys failed SASS?" Another 100% clear statement that since the votes didn't go your way you think it was the TGs to blame. Again, if that's not what you meant you shouldn't have said it.

 

Words have meanings. If it's not what you mean, don't use the words. :mellow:

 

As to the rules of TG voting, I see no reason it has to be a deep dark secret how each TG votes. But then again, I trust my TG. If I didn't I wouldn't vote for him. In my ever so humble opinion I think this entire thread is a slap in the face of the 99.9% of the TGs who are doing an outstanding job. Can the system be improved? Absolutely. We should never accept "good enough" and should always strive for improvement. But just because a system needs to be improved is no reason to insult the people who are working within the current rules.

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There's been a lot of bantering back and forth, some polite and some not so, by members (including me) who are understandably disapointed in the results of the latest voting and by some who have taken comments as attacks on their character. I'd like to go on record as stating that I believe the TGs for the clubs I belong to and almost,if not all, TGs are completely trustworthy individuals who undoubtedly voted as they believed their members wanted them to.

 

As I see it the main challenge we all face is how to get a true idea of how the active members WHO ACTUALLY DO SHOOT ON A REGULAR BASIS feel about issues, then insure that the results of the voting reflect that. If a TG has to depend ,for instance, on an internet based vote by his members to decide how he casts the club vote at convention the internet vote may be decided by members who never do actually shoot the matches but rather spend all their leisure hours at a computer, rather than by active shooters who never use one. The club level vote might be completely different if taken by hand at shoots. If a club member only finds out the TG's intentions after his TG casts his vote what chance does the club member have of influencing or changing it? I believe it would be a good practice for a TG to announce his intentions 30 days in advance.

 

The same problems would arise at a national level if the TG system was abolished in favor of a more direct vote by all listed members.

 

One possible solution I'd propose is for all voting to be done by members who actually competed in a match at a state or above level (EOT,WR,Regional and State,etc) ONE VOTE PER SHOOT. Shoot 12 matches, get 12 votes. Shoot two matches, get 2 votes. Shoot none, get none. After all, if you shoot a lot rules matter, if you don't shoot they don't matter to you! As has been stated in earlier posts your local club can do whatever it wants anyway, so if you don't attend larger matches it won't matter, just convince your local club to do it your way there. If you don't vote, don't complain about how it went.

 

It would also be nice if a proposal (ie Burgess) that only applied to a particular class was decided by people that actually shoot in that class.

 

The reason I'd like to see the votes cast by TG's posted is not to question their integrety, but rather to find out where my efforts should be directed in an attempt to change the opinions of members who disagree with my viewpoint.

 

 

In closing I'd like to say thanks to all TGs (and mine in particular) who do devote their time, efforts and money trying to help us enjoy this GAME!

 

Gotta go take cover behind the wagon now!

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No, you didn't.

 

#1 You clearly stated that you're "Looking for good TG's, any left?" That's a 100% statement that you don't think any are left. If that's not what you meant, you shouldn't have said it.

 

#2 You asked if "you guys failed SASS?" Another 100% clear statement that since the votes didn't go your way you think it was the TGs to blame. Again, if that's not what you meant you shouldn't have said it.

 

 

Hey Slim,

 

I'm not emotional about the questions or the titles of my thread. I'm just looking at the game as it stands, trying to see how members feel about the votes cast the by the TG's.

 

Let me tell you I haven't lost sleep over the results.

 

Leadville Clyde

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:mellow:;):wacko::angry::angry:

I sure don't see why #1 went as it did.

We still see it as a safety issue. :angry:

 

MG

 

Editted---

PS----The 2 SASS outfits that I TG for didn't fail.

I got their votes the best I could gather and I got them voted on (by proxy).

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No, you didn't.

 

#1 You clearly stated that you're "Looking for good TG's, any left?" That's a 100% statement that you don't think any are left. If that's not what you meant, you shouldn't have said it.

 

#2 You asked if "you guys failed SASS?" Another 100% clear statement that since the votes didn't go your way you think it was the TGs to blame. Again, if that's not what you meant you shouldn't have said it.

 

I think he was talking about me, Ace. I traded my votes to the bartender for some cheap tequila. I sure hope the bartender voted wisely. :wacko::angry::mellow:;)

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The only fail I see is that the votes did not go the way of my club on FCGF. Everything else went the way of my proxy... 3 out of 4 aint bad....

 

DM

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She Okie, The bartender was a she! :mellow:

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In my ever so humble opinion I think this entire thread is a slap in the face of the 99.9% of the TGs who are doing an outstanding job. Can the system be improved? Absolutely. We should never accept "good enough" and should always strive for improvement. But just because a system needs to be improved is no reason to insult the people who are working within the current rules.

 

Philly Slim,

Thank you for your words of wisdom! Every year after the Summit this type of post comes up, and gets heated. It's easy to sit on your computer and be sour grapes. The Governors do the job that is asked of them so nay sayers either get off your duff and help, or at the very least don't berate those that are trying to do the right thing!

Some of you folks are so predictable with your bad attitude, others sort of surprised me and your comments may not have been well thought out before posting. :mellow: Katie

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