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Clyde

Looking for good TG's Any left...

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Secret ballot for an individual's vote can make sense. A secret ballot for a representative vote begs distrust not just of the representative............

 

 

 

 

I agree,It would be great if there was a web page of how each club voted.

 

 

 

AO

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I believe if club does not think their TG is trustworthy (and cares) then they should consider another. The vote of Y, N, N, N was not the way I would have personally cast my vote if it had been my call, but it was not MY call so the decision at our meeting on the items (as noted) was the way I instructed my proxy carrier to cast the club's vote. I in return trust that TG to carry out the wishes of the club of which I am TG, and he understands the desires of club just in case the item is changed up at the pre-vote meetings. After all was said and done at Summit this year, my club won their vote on the two items I wanted to change, 1 & 2. On #3, I and the club felt FCGF could be offered by any club putting on a match and there was no reason to make it a SASS designated category. Personally, I did not particularly care one way or other. On the Burgess issue, I'm glad it pasted because of the money the company put in on making the product available to a CAS shooter who wants it. I sure don't think the next world cahmpion B-Western shooter is going to be using one, in fact, I doubt any one of the top ten in the class will be, but maybe it will be the next "hot equipment item" for the BW-group.

 

If a TG does not want to invest the money and time in going to the Summit for whatever the reason then I do not blame he/she, but I to think it is that TGs job to inform his/her club of agenda items and see that a proxy goes to Summit with votes to reflects their clubs wishes. If your TG does not do that then why not.

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I dont think I care what a TG from outside of where I shoot voted, but I think I should be able to see the vote of my TG. I am certain that IJ voted the way the club asked, but if he didnt, I think I would not vote for him next year(Sorry IJ, not pickin on you)

hud (who dont even own a #2 iron)

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I have no reason to believe our TG would not vote the way club voted,it would be nice to see that your club/clubs voted got counted for any reason whatever that might be.

 

 

:lol: Name one B western show/film/anything a Burgess rifle was in ? anybody

 

 

 

Regards AO

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Guest diablo slim shootist

Just wondering what would stop a proxy from vetoing your vote

and voting like he wants? :lol:

how many votes would it have taken to pass FCGF?

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:lol: Name one B western show/film/anything a Burgess rifle was in ? anybody

 

 

 

Regards AO

 

 

ADVENTURES OF THE MASKED PHANTOM*

(1939, Equity) Monty Rawlins, Betty Burgess, Larry Mason. This film is light years away from being a classic B western, but it's sooo campy you just can't help liking it. Yet, it does have some genuinely... $11.95

 

 

not a Burgess Rifle...but....

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Oh...excuss me!

 

Yeah...the system is great...it wonderful...don't try and make changes to make it better...noooooooo.

 

Just a "few" cowboys making noise.

 

Oy!!!!

 

:lol:

 

Well now that you mention it, it's not even a few......................only one.

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It is amazing how every year, after the vote does not please people, how the whiners come out.

 

Secret ballots, TG's that are crooked, SASS has another plan yadda, yadda yadda. I think it is your own personality that makes you question the work of some hard working people.

 

Get a life.

 

Probably have a dominate wife and need to flap your wings and pretend to be all knowing in front of the boys.

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I have no reason to believe our TG would not vote the way club voted,it would be nice to see that your club/clubs voted got counted for any reason whatever that might be.

 

 

:lol: Name one B western show/film/anything a Burgess rifle was in ? anybody

 

 

 

Regards AO

I think it was the same film where they shot Ruger revolvers and Henry Big Boy Rifles. :P

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It is amazing how every year, after the vote does not please people, how the whiners come out.

 

Secret ballots, TG's that are crooked, SASS has another plan yadda, yadda yadda. I think it is your own personality that makes you question the work of some hard working people.

 

Get a life.

 

Probably have a dominate wife and need to flap your wings and pretend to be all knowing in front of the boys.

 

What I see is me...

 

Oh, and at least I have a wife. :P

 

I'm so tired of the same old arguement of "They are hard working so-an-so's". So what?!

 

You an Rum just can't seem to handle someone discussing the system...perhaps to make it better. YOU assume that I don't like the outcomes and that is the motivation behind my comments...well that's just a chicksh** remark.

 

You want to debate in person? I'd be more then happy too. You'd find my beliefs are consistant.

 

So you can do your little personal attacks if it makes you "FEEL" like a cowboy...but that's just laughable! I'll continue to believe that the system can be better...and for you comprehensen challenged folks, that doesn't mean that the folks ain't working hard.

 

What a joke...

 

:lol:

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All I'll say is that the TG program beats the snot outta the prior system.

 

Goody, thank you for the work you do on behalf of our club.

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All I'll say is that the TG program beats the snot outta the prior system.

 

Goody, thank you for the work you do on behalf of our club.

 

The idea of a representative body that can help the WB understand the desires of the membership is an outstanding idea. This doesn't mean it can't be better.

 

I'm just so sick of the "Whining" comments...it's like calling someone a racist in a debate over affirmative action...pretty much ends the debate.

 

You know me Griff...I may be an a-hole, but I'm a consistant a-hole that actually wants SASS to be better.

 

:lol:

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The idea of a representative body that can help the WB understand the desires of the membership is an outstanding idea. This doesn't mean it can't be better.

 

I'm just so sick of the "Whining" comments...it's like calling someone a racist in a debate over affirmative action...pretty much ends the debate.

 

You know me Griff...I may be an a-hole, but I'm a consistant a-hole that actually wants SASS to be better.

 

:lol:

 

 

Do you have a plan? I'd like to hear/read it. I'm sure there's others out there that would, too. It would sure beat all this back-and-forth crap we read most of the time.

 

Steeldust Dan

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Do you have a plan? I'd like to hear/read it. I'm sure there's others out there that would, too. It would sure beat all this back-and-forth crap we read most of the time.

 

Steeldust Dan

Page back a few pages and you'd read he already put one idea forth.....true representative TG votes. Another was letting everyone know how their TG voted. No sexret ballots. I'm a TG and I had Ivory Jack carry my proxy. I e-mailed mine in last year. I have no problem having the world see how I voted.

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The idea of a representative body that can help the WB understand the desires of the membership is an outstanding idea. This doesn't mean it can't be better.

I'm just so sick of the "Whining" comments...it's like calling someone a racist in a debate over affirmative action...pretty much ends the debate.

You know me Griff...I may be an a-hole, but I'm a consistant a-hole that actually wants SASS to be better.

:lol:

Aye, and a-hole ISN'T a term I'd use.

 

And as much as I'd love to believe that "WE'RE" different... "WE'RE" still the same people that are active in our local politics and elections... OR NOT; so any expectations that "WE" as a whole would differ in our approach to a fun sport than we do in REAL life when the outcome is so much more important and has so much more impact on our lives seem fanciful and self-deluding.

 

In fact, I think it's extremely laudable that we have individuals that care enough about the sport to sit on committies like the RO, Firearms & Rules; actively work to see that we have a membership voice and work to improve both the processes and rules for the membership.

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Page back a few pages and you'd read he already put one idea forth.....true representative TG votes. Another was letting everyone know how their TG voted. No sexret ballots. I'm a TG and I had Ivory Jack carry my proxy. I e-mailed mine in last year. I have no problem having the world see how I voted.

 

 

Yes, thank you. I read the idea. What I asked for was a PLAN. It is easy for most of us to hit the Wire with an idea, but many can't go any farther than that. If the idea is so great (not saying it is or isn't), then lets go to the next step and have a PLAN.

 

SD

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Yes, thank you. I read the idea. What I asked for was a PLAN. It is easy for most of us to hit the Wire with an idea, but many can't go any farther than that. If the idea is so great (not saying it is or isn't), then lets go to the next step and have a PLAN.

 

SD

 

 

Plans are easy.

Heres a couple quick ones.

 

Continue with the current TG system - When the agenda is voted on, a public record is listed with each TG's vote available for review. This allows clubs to verify that their wishes are being supported by their TG. And gives the club reason for subsequent replacement if they are not.

or

Continue with the TG system - but with a weighted system that gives more weight to the desires of a 300 member club than it does to the wishes of a 30 member.

for example, weight the vote as 1 vote for each 100 members of a club (under 100 members clubs have one vote) - this would not affect smaller clubs, but would protect larger clubs from having their wishes washed out by smaller clubs. This would also require an accountability system of public record voting to ensure that this increase in "power" did not accompany an increase in abuse.

or

Continue with the TG system - but TG's are strictly an advisory board that creates the yearly agenda.

(which could be done online - removing the cost of travel or requirement for a TG convention)

Voting on the agenda is done by individual members electronically or thru a paper ballot provided with the Chronicle (if the NRA can send me my ballot in a copy of American Rifleman - then SASS could as well).

or

Discontinue the TG system altogether - create an online forum for rules changes and modifications that are member driven. Any proposal must obtain a certain amount of support (online petition) to be placed on the yearly agenda.

If a idea achieves the requirement for inclusion (whatever that may be - say 2000 signatures) - it is voted on by the membership at large during the yearly elections (once again - either by electronic ballot or paper ballot included in the Chronicle).

or

 

There are many ideas that would work better for our purposes.

As long as the 2/3rds requirement for passage was kept in place - knee jerk and simple majority rule could be avoided.

 

I would rather see one member - one vote, than the current non representative, non accountable TG system.

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Wow.....I find it hard to believe that we have a rampant problem with TG's not following the wishes of their club. Has it happened....I'm sure there are isolated occurences but I doubt it is a real issue.

 

I also have no problem with making public each TG's voting record. If they are doing the bidding of their club then who cares....really.....

 

I do see an issue with "weighting" a TG's vote based on membership......I see definite problems with defining a club member. Is it based on shooting at a club......I shoot at a BUNCH of clubs on a regular basis.....does that make me a member? Would I count towards each TG's "weighted" vote?

 

There is never going to be a perfect system of representation....What we have is much better then nothing.

 

Stan

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Do you have a plan? I'd like to hear/read it. I'm sure there's others out there that would, too. It would sure beat all this back-and-forth crap we read most of the time.

 

Steeldust Dan

 

Another one of those folks that like to attack those with Ideas. Fact is that there is value to ideas with skeletal plans...which I've made.

 

You don't even have an idea...oh, wait...yea you do. You just wanted to poke fun at me.

 

Good idea.

 

Again, throwing out ideas for making the system better is good. You see it's the ideas that are hard to come by. Once a smart guy/gal has an idea they can formulate a plan from these ideas. It what we would do in the world of Marketing all the time...brainstorming sessions...focus groups...yadayadayada.

 

But thank Steeldust Dan for your contribution...it really helped...kinda like saying that the TG system is better then nothing and therefore shouldn't be messed with.

 

Brilliant!!!!

 

:lol:

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Hey Creeker,

 

I like that Idea that the TG's could set the agenda items for each year. Maybe they already do and I just don't know it.

 

The NRA puts a voting ballot in one of their 'American Rifleman' magazines each year for voting on new board members. As an NRA Life Member, I don't know if all members get one or just Life Members but its a good way to get the membership to vote.

 

Maybe even the TG's could recommend that the CC include 'Annual Agenda' items in one of their OCT or NOV issues and allow each dues paying member an opportunity to vote on those specific agenda items.

 

Just a thought.

 

 

..........Widder

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On the rare occasion Paladin totes a rifle it is a short barreled Marlin.

And the Lone Ranger is only seen with a '73 !

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Oh Boy.

 

I have a couple of comments.

 

First, do we really have a problem with the way TG's vote? - Really? I mean to the point where it undermines the health and welfare of SASS? I don't really see it from my saddle, but a record of the vote would be an easy thing to do and would remove all doubt. That should be our next agenda item for 2011.

 

Second, reprentation is never perfect BUT in USPSA the voting is still done by mail and is largely a failure. Why? Because when you look at the responses only about 20% of the membership take the time to check two or three boxes and return the ballot. I believe this is due to the fact that most folks want to shoot and not politic. Good old fashion apathy. That's why I think that we should have at a few folks who care enough to get involved and carry our voice to the WB.

 

Lastly, making SASS better is a lofty idea, but just like the old joke about the psychiatrist and the lightbulb, the WB are going to have to "want" to change. Until we have some new WB members things are going to stay pretty close to what we have now. Getting emotionally invested in this process will only raise your bloodpressure and make you less popular.

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Another one of those folks that like to attack those with Ideas. Fact is that there is value to ideas with skeletal plans...which I've made.

 

You don't even have an idea...oh, wait...yea you do. You just wanted to poke fun at me.

 

Good idea.

 

Again, throwing out ideas for making the system better is good. You see it's the ideas that are hard to come by. Once a smart guy/gal has an idea they can formulate a plan from these ideas. It what we would do in the world of Marketing all the time...brainstorming sessions...focus groups...yadayadayada.

 

But thank Steeldust Dan for your contribution...it really helped...kinda like saying that the TG system is better then nothing and therefore shouldn't be messed with.

 

Brilliant!!!!

 

:lol:

 

 

 

Thanks for proving what I suspected of you. You won't believe this, but I really wanted to hear what you had to say. Of course, you really didn't have anything constructive to say. Well, except that comment earlier about you being an "a**hole." (your term, not mine) You are dead on about that!

 

I find it much easier for people to have ideas but they don't follow through on it. Plans, especially the details that make it work, are what is hard. I didn't attack you for having an idea. I wanted it taken another step forward for Pete's sake. Geeese. Thanks for proving my point.

 

Steeldust Dan

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I would add that almost 300 clubs did not vote at all.

 

We can sit here and argue about bad voting (which is more fiction than fact) or we can fix the problem of the apathy of nearly 300 clubs that did not participate at all.

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I would add that almost 300 clubs did not vote at all.

 

We can sit here and argue about bad voting (which is more fiction than fact) or we can fix the problem of the apathy of nearly 300 clubs that did not participate at all.

 

 

Someone could be sitting here thinking that there club voted. When in fact. They did not.

 

Even if they did not show HOW they voted. (which I see no reason not to show it)

Then atleast show what clubs did and did NOT vote. Then we might see more clubs being push

by members to get that vote in.

 

P.S. I am sure my club did. :lol:

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Now that the voting is done. It looks like:

 

#1 FAILED! Should the penalty for overloading a rifle be eliminated?

 

174 yes

135 no

 

#2 FAILED! Should the penalty for leaving an empty in a long gun be eliminated?

 

130 yes

179 no

 

#3 FAILED! Should we have a Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter category?

 

194 yes

115 no

 

#4 PASSED! Should we change the BW rule to allow guns from 1880 to be used, so the Burgess rifle is acceptable?

 

278 yes

30 no

 

 

Cool at least i know now if i want to get Burgess I can shoot BW.

 

Next Shooter...

 

 

kinda rude arent ya

TG's vote as the clubs ask them to

 

it takes a 3/4 majority, not just 49% - 51%

329+- clubs were represented

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Oh so close... 12 votes. :blush:

 

We're gaining on it - let's keep pushing.

 

CR

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Guest Joe West, SASS#1532 L Regulator

I'm surprized we get the votes that do show up, in person or proxy. Anything over 40% responding in most organizations is a very good turn out.

Our TG took our vote and voted it and sent out a report when he was done. I think the TG votes should definitely be puiblished for review because that is just a good common practice. Sunshine rules never bother the folks doing right.

As far as any failure of the TGs, if they did what they were asked, they did their job. I heard 3 different ones present the agenda items and they all read them off the paper just fine.

The system we're using has several inherent flaws, most common is the overlap of membership that makes a vote skewed towards areas with a lot of clubs but the same few shooters. That is not the case here as when I was a TG and carried many proxies, they all voted differently and mostly cancelled each outher out at the convention. That was how they voted, so that was how I voted. All TG votes should be made easily available for members to check.

I'm not going to offer the USPSA one vote per member as a model of something that works for the reason Dan said. They mostly don't care and won't even check a box and mail it. We're lucky only 300 clubs don't care. The better things are going, the less people care. At our club when we got 140 out of 600 to vote on something it was time to get out your history book and write stuff in it.

I don't have a better system to offer within the framework of our already overburdened volunteers on the local level. The only change I would propose, if I were able, would be simply publish the vote results with how each TG voted.

Joe

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I dont think I care what a TG from outside of where I shoot voted, but I think I should be able to see the vote of my TG. I am certain that IJ voted the way the club asked, but if he didnt, I think I would not vote for him next year(Sorry IJ, not pickin on you)

hud (who dont even own a #2 iron)

 

 

Hud-

 

No offense taken pard.

 

I carried proxies for the Hole in the Wall Gang, The Deadwood Boys, The Over the Hill Gang, The Silver Queen Mine Regulators, The Escondido Bandidos, and The German Territory Regulators, and the ballot for The Cowboys to the Summit. I voted the proxies as instructed by the TGs of those clubs, even if their votes conflicted with the instructions of my members. I will report how I voted their proxies back to those TGs . I voted my ballot as my club members instructed me by their online and mail in ballots. As I do every year, I will report back to The Cowboys membership exactly how I voted on each agenda item. I keep all members' ballots on file for a year so if there's a question about whether or not I voted according to the members wishes they are welcome to recount the votes and see for themselves. And by all means, if you don't trust me, then vote me out.

 

I have no qualms at all about telling any one how I voted. And I'd love to see a published list of those clubs that couldn't be bothered to vote.

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...or we can fix the problem of the apathy of nearly 300 clubs that did not participate at all.

Holy Cow Chuck!

 

That is on par with fixin' world peace...

 

Probably a good idea, but difficult to say the least.

 

Olen

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Thanks for proving what I suspected of you. You won't believe this, but I really wanted to hear what you had to say. Of course, you really didn't have anything constructive to say. Well, except that comment earlier about you being an "a**hole." (your term, not mine) You are dead on about that!

 

I find it much easier for people to have ideas but they don't follow through on it. Plans, especially the details that make it work, are what is hard. I didn't attack you for having an idea. I wanted it taken another step forward for Pete's sake. Geeese. Thanks for proving my point.

 

Steeldust Dan

 

Uh-oh! on no you didn't...

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it takes a 3/4 majority, not just 49% - 51%

Is it 3/4? I thought it was 2/3...

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Hud-

 

No offense taken pard.

 

I carried proxies for the Hole in the Wall Gang, The Deadwood Boys, The Over the Hill Gang, The Silver Queen Mine Regulators, The Escondido Bandidos, and The German Territory Regulators, and the ballot for The Cowboys to the Summit. I voted the proxies as instructed by the TGs of those clubs, even if their votes conflicted with the instructions of my members. I will report how I voted their proxies back to those TGs . I voted my ballot as my club members instructed me by their online and mail in ballots. As I do every year, I will report back to The Cowboys membership exactly how I voted on each agenda item. I keep all members' ballots on file for a year so if there's a question about whether or not I voted according to the members wishes they are welcome to recount the votes and see for themselves. And by all means, if you don't trust me, then vote me out.

 

I have no qualms at all about telling any one how I voted. And I'd love to see a published list of those clubs that couldn't be bothered to vote.

 

IJ, as always....you 'da man!!! Thanks for carrying our water on this one.

 

IROT

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IJ, as always....you 'da man!!! Thanks for carrying our water on this one.

 

IROT

 

 

My pleasure IROT. Proxies don't take up much room in my luggage and hardly weigh anything until they're counted. :blush:

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I have absolutely no doubt that my TG voted according to the desires of our club, whether or not he had a different opinion. I have a great respect for him; he is an honorable man, a good friend, a straight shooter, and an all around good Cowboy.

 

Our TG asked for our opinions way ahead of time to give people a chance to think about the issues and report back in a timely manner. If I have any problem with the way things turned out, I can say without a doubt it's because of what the club voted for.

 

When I first heard the news, I was really pissed, at SASS, and the TG's. After thinking things through and reading some of these posts, I realize that it's the members of SASS who voted for (or against) the change(s) I wanted to see. SASS is a great way to have fun and make new friends; I would bet that all of the TGs' with maybe one or two exceptions voted as the club asked them to.

 

I am very disappointed that FCGF failed to be recognized AGAIN. I am a very poor looser, and I will take this "loss" very personally. To those of you who supported it, Thank You. To you others, and I say this with all the strength I can muster, I hope your next shoot is a good one.

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