Top SASS shooter vs Old West Shootists

[Widder, SASS #59054]

As many have said shooting targets and killing men are two different things. Me personally I have never been shot at, so I don't know whether I would pee my pants or not. actually I have never been shot at intentionally. I was once downrange of some bad loading table placement and no one really noticed, fella had a AD with his rifle at the load table and I felt the bullet pass by my head and impact into a tree not 3 inches from my head. But what many don't take into a account is the muscle memory that many top shooters have in this sport. it's nothing to draw and triple tap a target without even thinking about, and many of us can do it very quickly and accuratly, I know what I can do at 25 yards. So it's less a matter of skill as it would be willingness to kill and desire to live. Put my family in that equation, and sorry you lose. Also, while I enjoy the old west lore and have since I was about 5, I choose not to glorify the fact that most were cold blooded killers, pimps and generaly terrible people.

 

 

I was gona purposely stay outa this topic although the post are very interesting. But, Deuce touched on two items that came to my mind.

 

One: your lack of any willingness to kill will be overriden by your desire to live.

Two: Put my family in that equation, and it becomes awhole nother matter.

 

And here is the intangible: some of those old west shooters that had sorted reputations would be standin in the middle of the street telling themselves; "what have I got myself into? This feller can draw and shoot that pistol quickern I can blink my eyeball".

 

 

..........Widder

[John E. Law]

Another thread got me to thinking and seein' as how I didn't want to hijack their thread I thought I'd ask: Who'd win in a gunfight if it were possible to transport John Wesley Hardin, Wild Bill, Jesse James, Wyatt Earp, et al so they'd be up against some of the best in SASS shooters we have now (you insert your own picks for these folks. Each using the cowboy guns they normally use? Who'd you put your money on and why? Just askin'. (Slow night at work!)

 

 

I don't think Larry's question had anything to do with the "ethical repercutions" and the "killer instinct" needed to actually have a gunfight. You could beat that horse until it's a bloddy pulp with the "what if's"

 

I'll answer based on my experience. I think the faster guys in SASS would be quicker in the fight due to genetic and equipment evolution. Technology has moved greatly in the last 120 years and the human is bigger, stronger, and faster. His question also only said SASS shooters. If you add the quick draw guys/gals against the "Great Gunfighters of Old" I think you'd be digging a lot of graves for the legends of the past.

 

Just my 2 cents,

JEL

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

The flaw is that you want to take the mechanical evolution into the equation while saying the mental/moral part doesnt matter. When he says gunfight, that takes the game out of the consideration and makes it a matter of life and death. Men killing men is a whole bunch different for US than is a game, while almost immaterial to an old west bad man. Take the word fight out and the conclusion becomes forgone, we have all the advantages and the average old gunfighter would be lucky to break into the top 50% of SASS shooters on Saturday morning.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

It's clear that this whole hypothetical hinges on two considerations: 1) the shooting skill of today's SASS shooter and 2) the experience of facing down a live man in a life and death encounter.

 

Me? I'd rather it not be Lead Dispencer, Badlands Bud, Cowhand, T-bone, or... GOD FORBID.... HOLY TERROR. Cuz I think you'd be fixing to get dead.

 

Training, skill, determination, character and courage may not always win... but they're surely the way to bet.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Negatory there, PC. I was NOT trained to kill when they shipped me to the Central Highlands. I was trained to be a track mechanic MOS 63C20 if I recall. I get to the 4th Inf Div 4th Combat Engineer Battalion and they say oh "you a tank monkey wrencher, OK see that tank -- get on it and let's go". The ONLY time I worked in my MOS was on my own tank and it was the same pretty much for everybody there, warrior first. Even the cooks and clerks. I don't know what the MOS for tanker is but from day one that's what I was a DAT (dumb @$$ tanker) aka Ma Deuce gunner. I worked my way up to acting jack buck sergeant tank commander which is just another term for Ma Deuce gunner. Ma Deuce saved my bacon many times.

 

My main training to be Uncle Sam's "trained" killing machine was watching Combat, The Gallant Men, 12 O'clock High, Run Silent Run Deep and John Wayne movies growing up. It was enuff. It only takes about 2 minutes training to run Ma Deuce and that includes setting the timing. Nothing beats Ma Deuce when your tail is gettin' ambushed crawlin' up Mang Yang pass except maybe a bee-hive round from the sawed off 165 mm main gun of a CEV. That and close air support.

 

Young American men these days grow up immersed in first person shooter games. I am told it is excellent training. Never tried any a dem durn veedeeoh games but I say again, young American men do NOT hesitate to bring it right now and right big. Same now in the sandbox as in the jungle then. We would absolutely slaughter those old west bad men and not suffer a scratch in return.

 

Unless they resorted to their favorite tactic of back-shootin' which of course they would if they could, but in a straight up eyeball to eyeball shoot-out I put my money on today's boys.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

I can’t believe it, but Lone Dog has me ready to stand up and shout “amen brother!” Does anyone really believe that current day Americans are any less men that those of days gone by? I dare say that the people of SASS, whether they be a top shooter or otherwise, may not be natural born killers with a taste for blood, but give us a reason to fight (family or freedom) and take away the need for political correctness… and you would find the same species of Americans that have existed since the Revolution. Rear-ends would be kicked and names would be taken.

 

When I think of the top shooters I have encountered in SASS, without fail, they have been kind people…with personalities that remind me of…oh, say Audie Murphy. If the famous fellers of old had faced our top guns in a kill or be killed situation, we would have never heard of them… because they would have died before they became famous.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Americans, like the old Spartans, are a warrior race and we are and always will be world champions at it. It was ever thus. We have been at constant war since before the nation wrested itself from the former world champs, the Brits. First on this continent and then, since the shores of Tripoli, around the world. Anyone who thinks young Americans don't have the nads or would blink and hesitate when the chips are down is barkin' up the wrong tree.

 

That's all I'm sayin'. The killer instinct is inculcated into us from birth. It is our legacy and our birthright. We were put here for the high purpose to be peacemakers and strike fear into the hearts of tyrants and Bad Men anytime anywhere for all time everywhere. Those who would under-estimate the mettle of our young men and yes our young women too do so at their peril.

 

Ask King George and Hitler.

 

That's all I'm sayin'. I would sure not want Bud or HT gunnin' fer me.

[LEAD BANE, SASS 70197]

Training helps, but it dont make the man. I cant make no decision on who would or wouldnt till that time comes and they do or dont. I been there with some folks and I would figure bout 60% of those folded under when the bullets started flyin. One young man was curled up in the fetal position, the man next to him was sending the lead and stacking the bodies. Are there brave men these days, yes. Are there those we think would be brave and effective only to curl up and cry at the moment of truth, yes. Only a few men I know that I would want next to me at the moment of truth, very few.

[Guest Texas Jack Black]

Training helps, but it dont make the man. I cant make no decision on who would or wouldnt till that time comes and they do or dont. I been there with some folks and I would figure bout 60% of those folded under when the bullets started flyin. One young man was curled up in the fetal position, the man next to him was sending the lead and stacking the bodies. Are there brave men these days, yes. Are there those we think would be brave and effective only to curl up and cry at the moment of truth, yes. Only a few men I know that I would want next to me at the moment of truth, very few.

 

 

Well said .Every year someone tries to compare the SUV driving, I phone, credit card carrying, McDonald eating, SASS shooter who stands and delivers fart loads down range to the blood thirsty killers of the old west and quite frankly it is amusing. Our military men are our heros, but remember they most always have massive firepower and plenty of backup with them. The same goes for our police.

The old time killers met you one on one and were not thinking about family or what time the football game started.

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

Well said .Every year someone tries to compare the SUV driving, I phone, credit card carrying, McDonald eating, SASS shooter who stands and delivers fart loads down range to the blood thirsty killers of the old west and quite frankly it is amusing. Our military men are our heros, but remember they most always have massive firepower and plenty of backup with them. The same goes for our police.

The old time killers met you one on one and were not thinking about family or what time the football game started.

 

Have you always been this bitter, or have had to work hard at it? You are right, my lifestyle can't compete with the old time baddies, killing, rustleing,whoreing,gambling,drinking and generally have no real reponsibility in life would wear me right out.

[Bustin Caps]

Two modern day gun fighters that I would put in the same category with Will Bill and Wyatt Earp would be 1930's Texas Rangers Lone Wolf Gonzales (he had a extremly fast draw) and The Texas Ranger Frank Hamer who tracked down Bonnie and Clyde. Both of these Texas Rangers were very tough men and who would not hesitate to shoot to kill a bad man.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Have you always been this bitter, or have had to work hard at it? You are right, my lifestyle can't compete with the old time baddies, killing, rustleing,whoreing,gambling,drinking and generally have no real reponsibility in life would wear me right out.

DANG IT, DEUCE! Even in your advanced age you've been told time and time again, "DON'T FEED THE TROLLS"!!

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

Well said .Every year someone tries to compare the SUV driving, I phone, credit card carrying, McDonald eating, SASS shooter who stands and delivers fart loads down range to the blood thirsty killers of the old west and quite frankly it is amusing. Our military men are our heros, but remember they most always have massive firepower and plenty of backup with them. The same goes for our police.

The old time killers met you one on one and were not thinking about family or what time the football game started.

 

I find it equally amusing that an assumption can be made about someone's abilities based upon what they drive, the kind of phone they use, their use of any current technology or any other such nonsense.

 

This thought process makes me think of an event from a number of years ago that occurred in a plant where I worked. A terminated employee, cranked up on something, refused to leave the premises. He was very loud and as he became louder and aggressive with a female supervisor, other members of management gathered "just in case." When a male supervisor asked him to leave, the former employee tossed him against a wall. Another grabbed him and was tossed like a toothpick. Yet another supervisor, who was built like a young Sylvester Stallone, dished him a powerful right hook followed by a similar left hook. The feller took it as if it were no more than a slap from a little girl and tossed supervisor number three.

 

About that time, a recently hired supervisor who was about 5’5” and weighed in at about 120, effeminate as they come, stepped up… and

his butt. Wherever that little guy is today, I’m bettin’ he’s totin’ an i-Phone. Moral of the story: You can’t judge a book by its cover.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

To me, the biggest "issue" is that very likely very few would survive.

That is one reason many of the top Old West shooters would not face each other, they knew that even if they "won", with shots fired in both directions, likely both would be hit and very likely neither would survive. So I beat someone by 1/3 of a second, if they got off an accurate shot, I'd be in trouble as well.

 

Where's the Kevlar!!!

[backshootin beauford mcgee]

old time gunfighter-- can't beat 'real life' experience.

[Guest Texas Jack Black]

Have you always been this bitter, or have had to work hard at it? You are right, my lifestyle can't compete with the old time baddies, killing, rustleing,whoreing,gambling,drinking and generally have no real reponsibility in life would wear me right out.

 

Bitter????

 

 

Duece my post has nothing to do with you or your abilities . That being said is my post inaccurate? Please lighten up

I have seen you shoot and you are fast but I could beat you in a heart beat I would have shot you at 500 yds with my sharps THAT was how it would have been done in the OLD WEST

 

 

Best Wishes

T J B

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

As many have said shooting targets and killing men are two different things. Me personally I have never been shot at, so I don't know whether I would pee my pants or not. actually I have never been shot at intentionally. I was once downrange of some bad loading table placement and no one really noticed, fella had a AD with his rifle at the load table and I felt the bullet pass by my head and impact into a tree not 3 inches from my head. But what many don't take into a account is the muscle memory that many top shooters have in this sport. it's nothing to draw and triple tap a target without even thinking about, and many of us can do it very quickly and accuratly, I know what I can do at 25 yards.

 

So it's less a matter of skill as it would be willingness to kill and desire to live. Put my family in that equation, and sorry you lose. Also, while I enjoy the old west lore and have since I was about 5, I choose not to glorify the fact that most were cold blooded killers, pimps and generaly terrible people.

 

Duece my friend, I agree 100%.

 

Put your family at risk and God help the guy doing it because he wouldn't know what hit him. That is the sort of emotion that Marines utilize while training someone to learn how to kill naturally. It is the principle behind seeing the Marine Corps as a family. It is the idea of Semper Fi. You are Always Faithful to your family and do what needs to be done to accomplish the mission. See the Bad Guy, kill the Bad Guy. It's just that simple. Why, because if you don't then your family can be at risk.

 

And you are also right as far as I can see when it comes to the Outlaws of the Old West, "most were cold blooded killers, pimps and generaly terrible people."

[Smithy]

If you are talking about a "real" Gunfight, I would put my money on the Old West Shooters. It's one thing to be able to shoot fast, it's another to stare down another person and shoot them..

 

+1 and our targets are bigger and closer compared to what the Old West Shooters were shooting at. Smithy.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Well said .Every year someone tries to compare the SUV driving, I phone, credit card carrying, McDonald eating, SASS shooter who stands and delivers fart loads down range to the blood thirsty killers of the old west and quite frankly it is amusing. Our military men are our heros, but remember they most always have massive firepower and plenty of backup with them. The same goes for our police.

The old time killers met you one on one and were not thinking about family or what time the football game started.

 

 

Bitter????

 

 

Duece my post has nothing to do with you or your abilities . That being said is my post inaccurate? Please lighten up

I have seen you shoot and you are fast but I could beat you in a heart beat I would have shot you at 500 yds with my sharps THAT was how it would have been done in the OLD WEST

 

 

Best Wishes

T J B

 

 

TJB: I always read your post. And I must admit, you can throw a great curve ball.

So, in reading these two post, which one is more accurate:

#1. the old time killers met you one on one, etc.......

OR

#2. ambushing someone with a sharps at 500 yards because THAT was how it would have been done in the OLD WEST.

 

Best wishes

 

..........Widder

[Cypress Sun]

stepped up… and

his ass.

 

I always loved that scene

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

Negatory there, PC. I was NOT trained to kill when they shipped me to the Central Highlands. I was trained to be a track mechanic MOS 63C20 if I recall. I get to the 4th Inf Div 4th Combat Engineer Battalion and they say oh "you a tank monkey wrencher, OK see that tank -- get on it and let's go". The ONLY time I worked in my MOS was on my own tank and it was the same pretty much for everybody there, warrior first. Even the cooks and clerks. I don't know what the MOS for tanker is but from day one that's what I was a DAT (dumb @$$ tanker) aka Ma Deuce gunner. I worked my way up to acting jack buck sergeant tank commander which is just another term for Ma Deuce gunner. Ma Deuce saved my bacon many times.

 

My main training to be Uncle Sam's "trained" killing machine was watching Combat, The Gallant Men, 12 O'clock High, Run Silent Run Deep and John Wayne movies growing up. It was enuff. It only takes about 2 minutes training to run Ma Deuce and that includes setting the timing. Nothing beats Ma Deuce when your tail is gettin' ambushed crawlin' up Mang Yang pass except maybe a bee-hive round from the sawed off 165 mm main gun of a CEV. That and close air support.

 

Young American men these days grow up immersed in first person shooter games. I am told it is excellent training. Never tried any a dem durn veedeeoh games but I say again, young American men do NOT hesitate to bring it right now and right big. Same now in the sandbox as in the jungle then. We would absolutely slaughter those old west bad men and not suffer a scratch in return.

 

Unless they resorted to their favorite tactic of back-shootin' which of course they would if they could, but in a straight up eyeball to eyeball shoot-out I put my money on today's boys.

 

Lone Dog,

 

I may have had a career in the Marine Corps but I've very ignorant about the Army. In the Corps everyone is trained as a Basic Rifleman first and foremost. Killing is our business. Even our Tank Drivers and Air Traffic Controlers and our Computer Operators and our Cooks are in their assigned fields, they are all Marines first. And that means know their Combat Skills and Marksmanship Training must be kept up to par. Subsequently all Marines are tested for those skills as well as they must all requalify on the range at least once a year.

 

I sort of assumed that the Army was the same way in that all Soldiers were Soldiers first for all the same reasons. As for a Ma Deuce and a 165 mm, well I know what a Ma Duece can do. But for me, I know first hand what QUAD-50s will do, and that Dog is real firepower! Now as for a 165 mm tank gun, sorry but I never had the chance to fire one. The closest I got to that was a 5"/38 about a ship once.

 

And thinking about what you had to say about "today's" youngsters and video games and what not, including how truly violent movies and televison has gotten with gangster rap and getto this and that, I agree with what you're saying about Young Americans. Maybe that's the answer to why something like the Columbine High School Massacre took place.

 

From my experience many many years ago, and granted it is different from yours, I saw where the Killer Instinct had to pulled out of a lot of young men. It's probably very different today.

 

I really think that the Old West was more of a situation like how Morgan Earp was killed, or say how Dave Tutt was killed by Wild Bill Hickok ... compared to what we've seen in the movies. Back shootings and ambush.

 

When Dave Tutt appeared on the scene, Hickok had reportedly already placed his pistol across his arm and aiming at Tutt when he called out "Dave" and fired his shot. When Dave turned and drew his pistol is when some eyewitnesses say he got hit under the arm pit of the side of his chest. Hickok wasn't taking any chances on getting killed.

 

And of course in the case of Morgan Earp, heck he was shot from outside a widow on a dark street while he was bent over shooting pool.

 

[Pack Saddle Slim, SASS #73122]

Okay, okay, I'll put in my two cents worth.

 

I think the majority of SASS shooters could beat John Wesley Hardin in a shootout today. I mean, who couldn't beat a 157-year old man?

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

Okay, okay, I'll put in my two cents worth.

 

I think the majority of SASS shooters could beat John Wesley Hardin in a shootout today. I mean, who couldn't beat a 157-year old man?

 

There you go Pack Saddle!

 

And don't forget John Wesley Hardin is a 157 year old DEAD guy!

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

We have the most talented gunmen by far, yes we have very patriotic family loving individuals and yes I would bet we have our share of heroes but where we are lacking is in individuals who are not able to value the life of others above their own. As kids in school how many times did you see a nice guy get sucker punched because he failed to recognize the nature of his adversary in time. The other kid was not a killer but he did operate under a different set of standards than did the nice kid. A chance encounter with a killer does not allow an otherwise brave man the opportunity to mentally prepare himself as would occur with a soldier in battle. Lets face it, we know that if we shoot and kill this irritating guy who is giving us grief our life is over. Those men did not live under those standards, read some books. In the old west men killed unarmed opponents frequently and were acquitted on the grounds of self defense. Why, because someone had told them the individual had made a threat against them last week. We are just not mentally prepared to deal with that type person on a chance encounter. Our problem is we want to think it makes us less, when actually we are better people than were those old west killers.

[Guest Texas Jack Black]

TJB: I always read your post. And I must admit, you can throw a great curve ball.

So, in reading these two post, which one is more accurate:

#1. the old time killers met you one on one, etc.......

OR

#2. ambushing someone with a sharps at 500 yards because THAT was how it would have been done in the OLD WEST.

 

Best wishes

 

..........Widder

 

Now Widder you need to reread the posts again I said I could beat him in a heartbeat and that I would shoot him at 500 yds with a Sharps and that is how it would have been done in the Old West. He would have been well known due to his speed and would of been shot at a long ways out.

 

Yup ,one on one Duece with his SASS guns and me with my Sharps ONE ON ONE It is all in the wording So both are quite accurate

 

 

T J B

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

+1 and our targets are bigger and closer compared to what the Old West Shooters were shooting at. Smithy.

 

Really????

 

They were shooting at guys that stood around 5' 8"...and we shoot at...?????

 

They usually shoot up close and personal...if they really wanted to kill...

 

Here we go again...

 

And it's good to hear from old TJB...the guy that like nothing more then to badmouth SASS...yet doesn't participate in the game.

 

[Gus Blazer, SASS #74376]

Two points on Hickock, It is well established that he cleaned out the cylinders on his Navy Colts daily by firing them every day before reloading those cap and ball .36 caliber pistols. That is 3,600 rounds a year if he never fired them again. While I fire monthly I don't fire half that, I can't afford it. I know some of you probably do.

 

Let's look at the gunfight with Dave Tutt, which according to some sources, including Bob Boze Bell, is the prototype for every beginnining of Gunsmoke gunfight scene that Hollywood ever filmed.

 

Opponent Dave Tutt from the Tutts-Everett War Tutts, a feuding fighting family. In his time he was a gunman of some reputation although that has been somewhat extinguished by time and Hickock killing him.

 

Depending on the source the two men shot at each other (duelist style IAW SASS rules) from at least 50 yards and as much as 75 yards away while both men were moving. Tutt missed, Hickock's round went into Tutt's torso undeneath his firing arm and through his heart, killing him until he was dead, dead, dead.

 

At 50 yards (let alone 75) and moving and under the stress of a "friend" shooting back, I would probably be Dave Tutt.

Anyway that's me.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

This reminds me of those questions kids ask like, who would win a fight between Superman and Batman.

[Pit Bull Tex]

I am new here but I dont think the old gunfighters would have a chance. The killing part is the easy part, living with it is a lot harder.But if someone is going to hurt you or your family then you do what you have to do.

[Rye Miles #13621]

I think I'd put my money down on Wild Bill Hickock.

[Dirt Merchant # 61422]

So let's say we started this conversation with. " for those of you that have been shot at or killed someone to survive" who do you think would have survived, SASS shooters or old time shootists" then this would have been a much more pointed and short thread overall.

I vote for the trained,tested, SASS shooter

 

Anything else is just jibberish for a winters night

[Chain Breaker, SASS #65448]

A tuff man is a tuff man. How many fights were started unexpectedly as with a Sunday punch. The loser didn't even know the other guy was mad, only the victor just drew and shot. It's still the same today. 2 men argue when out of the blue, a Sunday punch no warning.

[Texas Jack Stephens SASS #12303]

Larry, I know one thing, I wold not want to face the Texas Ranger (John Armstrong I think) that brought in John Wesley Hardin. Men of that type had been wounded several times, took a lot to kill them. Texas Jack Stephens

[Guest Texas Jack Black]

Really????

 

They were shooting at guys that stood around 5' 8"...and we shoot at...?????

 

They usually shoot up close and personal...if they really wanted to kill...

 

Here we go again...

 

And it's good to hear from old TJB...the guy that like nothing more then to badmouth SASS...yet doesn't participate in the game.

 

 

Charlie ,you must be kidding I was shooting SASS when you were still trying to figure out which end of the gun the bullet came out of .I take a few years off from a life time of shooting in civilian life and the militery and you never picked up a gun untill a few years ago when you joined SASS and yet you attempt to portray yourself as this great expert in the shooting world. .I do enjoy reading your posts .

 

Best wishes and a Merry Christmas to you and your family

 

T J B

 

PS. try to be nice and not alienate yourself from the rest of humanity

I wish you well Pilgrim and wish you a very happy and Merry Christmas and look forward to this winters postings.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Charlie ,you must be kidding I was shooting SASS when you were still trying to figure out which end of the gun the bullet came out of .I take a few years off from a life time of shooting in civilian life and the militery and you never picked up a gun untill a few years ago when you joined SASS and yet you attempt to portray yourself as this great expert in the shooting world. .I do enjoy reading your posts .

 

Best wishes and a Merry Christmas to you and your family

 

T J B

 

PS. try to be nice and not alienate yourself from the rest of humanity

I wish you well Pilgrim and wish you a very happy and Merry Christmas and look forward to this winters postings.

 

The pure disrespect you show is pathetic.

 

You don't know me yet you use my name.

 

You don't know me yet you make claims about me as though you do.

 

Seriously, you are pathetic.

 

You're about as disengenuous as a person can possibly be.

 

I'm sure you'll be waiting for my postings...I try and get them in for you since your life is so sad that they seem to be all you have...

 

 

PS: I learned your true makeup when you wrote me a PM and promised to knock off the BS...that lasted about one post before you started up all over again.

 

Enjoy your delusions...