Top SASS shooter vs Old West Shootists

[Lethal Larry, SASS #58429]

Another thread got me to thinking and seein' as how I didn't want to hijack their thread I thought I'd ask: Who'd win in a gunfight if it were possible to transport John Wesley Hardin, Wild Bill, Jesse James, Wyatt Earp, et al so they'd be up against some of the best in SASS shooters we have now (you insert your own picks for these folks. Each using the cowboy guns they normally use? Who'd you put your money on and why? Just askin'. (Slow night at work!)

[Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life]

No contest...todays shooters have batter equiptment, better skills and probably shoot (practice) more. Lots of the "famous" old west bad men/gunfighters were back shooters and ambushers.

[Rustler, SASS #33316]

If you are talking about a "real" Gunfight, I would put my money on the Old West Shooters. It's one thing to be able to shoot fast, it's another to stare down another person and shoot them..

[Red River Ray SASS#33254]

This is simple! I'd send me agin Tom Chainey I bleve I kin git him fer sure.

 

As for Sundance kid Well I'd want Bud er Duece fer his A$$

 

 

RRR

[Pulp, SASS#28319]

In a SASS match, I'd bet on the modern folks. In a face to face gunfight, I'd probably bet on the Old West feller, especially Hardin and Hickock. I don't know too many good, or bad SASS shooters that are actually willing to kill, and that makes a huge difference in a gunfight.

[Doc Shapiro]

There is a big difference here. We play our game for fun. It's another matter altogether to be willing to kill someone.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Another thread got me to thinking and seein' as how I didn't want to hijack their thread I thought I'd ask: Who'd win in a gunfight if it were possible to transport John Wesley Hardin, Wild Bill, Jesse James, Wyatt Earp, et al so they'd be up against some of the best in SASS shooters we have now (you insert your own picks for these folks. Each using the cowboy guns they normally use? Who'd you put your money on and why? Just askin'. (Slow night at work!)

Who cares, no one will ever know! Going to be a long winter.

[Bad Brass]

Much of the old west that we know today is myth. There is no documented history of a hollywood gunfight at highnoon. Most shootings that I've read about are ambushes not quick draws. That said I'd put my money on our modern shooters anyday, aside from quickdraw our sport offers superior tactical training and practice regarding weapons usage. I don't think the modern replicas we shoot offer significant accuracy advantages over the originals at the distances we shoot. The only thing we would suffer would be our mouse fart loads against the real men who shot black powder and heavy bullets.

 

But who cares anyway, Cowboy Action Shooting is pure fun!

[Guest Texas Jack Black]

:lol:

[Bart Solo]

The wild west shootists were of two kinds. There were the men who learned their trade in the civil war, taming wild cowtowns, or in the Indian wars. Such men were experienced, professional killers of men. Wild Bill Hickok is the best example of that group. Others would include any number of lawmen who worked the Indian Territory for Judge Parker. Roster Cogburn is a fictional character, but one who is based on a composite of a bunch of hard nosed lawmen. There are also a lot of Texas and Arizona rangers who were tough as nails. Then there were stone cold killers like John Wesley Hardin. Often such killers don't have that much straight up courage. In a stand up fight I would take Wild Bill over any modern SASS shooter nearly anytime. Now if one of the modern SASS shooters was an experienced combat veteran, then both men would die in a blaze of gunfire. I don't know now Hardin would react to fighting with a modern SASS shooter straight up. I am pretty sure Wild Bill would take Hardin with ease. By the way, Wild Bill practiced every day. That's why he was shot in the back of the head. Nobody wanted to try him head on.

 

As to the argument that there was never a Hollywood high noon style shoot out in the old west, I would submit Wild Bill v. Davis Tutt in Springfield, Missouri is as close as one could get to a movie shootout without a director and camera crew.

[Pulp, SASS#28319]

Since dueling was not in the distant past of our country, and a Hollywood style gunfight is just an extension of dueling, I'd venture to say that while not common, there were stand up gunfights.

 

I researched one back when I was Historian for a re-enactment club. Cain't remember the names right off, so I'll call them Bob and Joe. It started as a stand up gunfight, both contestants took hits, Bob in the stomach, Joe had his lower jaw shot off. When guns were empty and both were down, Joe started crawling toward Bob, raised up on his knees and pulled his knife to finish the job. When he had both hands over his head, holding the knife, Bob pulled a knife and slashed Joe's throat. Joe fell on Bob, driving his knife through Bob's chest. They both died right there.

 

It's been many years since I read that account, if anyone remembers who the contestants were, please post them.

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

Hardin would have killed Wild Bill and wore thet bogus watch to the funeral, you may not know it BUT Hardin new it and most important, Wild Bill new it. As for the idea that WBH won all of his fights as straight up gunfights, there is another side to almost every dime novel legend printed. As to the cold blooded killers like Hardin, they were not all cast from a single mold. I am looking for one example of Hardin backing down from a thrown guantlet, show me the documentation, and unlike the back shooters you want to lump him with, his courage in combat was proven under fire and with dire wounds received more than once. Funny that he was shot in the back on two occasions both shots were delivered by proven men of courage,,,, lawmen. He was shot in the leg by a third lawmen while he was in chains being transported back to Texas, an accident caused by pure fear of the chained prisoner. Sure its easy to call him a coward 120 years after his death but his legend once caused many a Texas boy to make water. You were right about one thing, he was one crazy ...... As for the closest thing to a real movie style face to face, I think Luke Short would have to be included in the count as most like a scripted man on man shootout.

 

I think there are a few men alive today who have all the tools necessary to take any one of the old west bad men but it will not be your average SASS fast gun. I know we have some who think they are cold blooded killers but thats fantacy, we are not like a JW Hardin or a William Munny.

[Little Henry]

As John Wayne told Ron Howard's character in "The Shootist", when Ron bragged that he shot the targets as good or better than the "shootist" JB Books: "Friend, those targets ain't shootin' back at you!"

 

[Guest Cinch, SASS#29433]

No contest...todays shooters have batter equiptment, better skills and probably shoot (practice) more. Lots of the "famous" old west bad men/gunfighters were back shooters and ambushers.

 

Ha! It would depend on if it was hot or cold and if it was getting close to lunch...

[Tangent Ranger]

I wonder if any of the law dawgs could win. I know if pressed I would try, but unless you've had to live that way in real life, I can tell you it's way different than sass. I'd rather not face them.

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Half of the Modern SASS shooters would have their wrists sprained after the fist shot with "Real" Cowboy loads of Yore ....

If they didn't drop the gun or shoot themselves .... Or pee themselves at the sight of a real badman ....

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Half of the Modern SASS shooters would have their wrists sprained after the fist shot with "Real" Cowboy loads of Yore ....

If they didn't drop the gun or shoot themselves .... Or pee themselves at the sight of a real badman ....

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

 

Yeah - those 36 cal BP loads were wicked.

Or did you mean the 32 caliber cartridge guns?

[ShadowCatcher]

Another thread got me to thinking and seein' as how I didn't want to hijack their thread I thought I'd ask: Who'd win in a gunfight if it were possible to transport John Wesley Hardin, Wild Bill, Jesse James, Wyatt Earp, et al so they'd be up against some of the best in SASS shooters we have now (you insert your own picks for these folks. Each using the cowboy guns they normally use? Who'd you put your money on and why? Just askin'. (Slow night at work!)

Well, that's the whole idea behind a show on T.V., pitting different folks from different times against

each other and trying to figure who might out fight the other . . . .

 

Technically - in a speed shoot or staged match - I think our folks have better technique at the game,

they've trained in it. We shoot modern equipment that is manufactured to fairly good standards,

using ammo of tailored performance, in a contrived manner. Of course a good many of us come from

a military or LEO background, or at least have had some competition using full up or major power

factor ammo in the past also, so I don't think we're quite over run with limp-wristed namby pamby shooters.

 

Back in the day those folks used what they had and shot however they needed to or could at the moment.

They also did shoot competitively; there were a lot of gun games played, e.g. turkey shoots, and others,

probably for as long as there have been two or more shooters and money to be made or lost.

 

It would be a contest, and the first time out we might beat them, but I'd never underestimate their

ability to learn and adapt as well, those guys were no fools.

 

I also believe that we have a number of law dogs and soldiers in our midst who could probably

hold their own if confronted or compelled to shoot against these folks, in a duel. There are enough

folks here who've seen the elephant, and could do it again if need be. Most if not all are NOT the

kind of folks who'd go looking for the gun fight, but there are few who would back down if pressed.

 

Interesting question - if I didn't have the mental curiosity to dwell on it I wouldn't have gone to the

bother to open your post and write a response. I would have minded my manners and moved on.

 

It's going to be a long winter, so thanks for bringing up an interesting idea to chat about over a

drink or two with a few amiable friends.

 

Take care -

 

Shadow Catcher

[Steel-eye Steve SASS #40674]

Old west fighter would shoot the SASS shooter in the back while the SASS shooter was busy talking about the "cowboy way" and the "spirit of the game."

[MMJ#89586]

Just going from what I've read I'd say Billy The Kid would do well vs. a top SASS shooter. They say he was one He11 of a shot.

[Irish Red OToole, #48939]

Bud and/or Spence are two uber-quick young men that are at the top of our game. However, being as young as they are, I know neither one has "seen the elephant" so how they would react in a deadly encounter is anyone's guess. I shoot with another cowboy, Lefty Longridge, that is a former L. A. County Sherriff's Sergeant. He put in 28 years wearing a badge in one of the biggest cities in the country. Oh, and he's still deadly fast. I'd side him against any of the cream of the crop from the Old West......Hardin, Earp, Bonney, Hickock.

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

There is a big difference here. We play our game for fun. It's another matter altogether to be willing to kill someone.

 

+1

 

I agree.

 

I don't know how good of shooters the real Lawmen and Outlaws of the Old West actually were. I've heard some of them were very good while I've also read that others were not so good at all.

 

So if it was a pure SASS type of competition with a timer and a stage and so on, then obviously I'd go with our SASS members like Bud and Duece. I think their abilities would truly impress some of the greats like Annie Oakley, Bill Cody, Pawnee Bill, Doc Carver, and Adam Bogardus.

 

But if it were a fight, a gunfight, a firefight, a confrontation that escalates to gunplay, and has men drawing weapons and shooting from behind a wall or around a corner, from a grove of trees, or a darkened window, face to face, or in the back, then there are very few Man Killers in SASS who can compete with the likes of most Old West Outlaws and Lawmen.

 

I'm sure some shooters, whether it's IPSC or whatever, may believe they can do what it takes, but real killing is a whole different deal. There are no procedurals, no timers, people are shooting at you and a miss may cost you your life.

 

I agree with Steel-eye Steve when he said "Old west fighter would shoot the SASS shooter in the back while the SASS shooter was busy talking about the "cowboy way" and the "spirit of the game."

 

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Bull. One thing I learned very well in the Nam. Young American men are very capable of whuppin' out guns and goin' to work when they need to. I never encountered not even ONE who hesitated or failed in returning maximum return fire when it came time for the nut-cuttin'. Peace thru superior firepower was our motto.

 

I would put any of our current day young studs up agin any of them old time bad men. The lead storm would be so severe they wouldn't know what hit 'em.

 

We would slaughter them.

[Guest diablo slim shootist]

Larry i have the answer to your guestion

if we are talking pistols-SASS shooters

may have an edge under 7yrds

but if the distance is any farther (likeWBs 75 yard shot)

they would take us out ill bet!Shooting a target is

easy -Killin a man much harder! Diablo

[Guest diablo slim shootist]

Who cares, no one will ever know! Going to be a long winter.

then why post if you dont care people

like you will make it a long winter sheeee.

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

Bull. One thing I learned very well in the Nam. Young American men are very capable of whuppin' out guns and goin' to work when they need to. I never encountered not even ONE who hesitated or failed in returning maximum return fire when it came time for the nut-cuttin'. Peace thru superior firepower was our motto.

 

I would put any of our current day young studs up agin any of them old time bad men. The lead storm would be so severe they wouldn't know what hit 'em.

 

We would slaughter them.

 

Dog,

 

One difference, they didn't hesitate or fail to return fire because like you they were trained to do their job and kill before they went to Nam. Just like I was. Kicking a$$ was our job. We killed and we did it well. No doubt.

 

Pard, when I got back from the Nam, I spent a lifetime training others to kill with skill and without remorse.

 

Peace Through Superior Firepower .... ABSO-freaking-LUTELY!

 

But the difference is that that we're not talking about guys trained to kill, we're talking about the BEST skilled SASS Shooters. We're talking about guys who are highly trained to expend all of their ammo in a few seconds at targets that on the overall don't move .... and of course are never shooting back at them.

 

Do we have Nam and Gulf War and Iraq and Afghanistan Vets that can take the Outlaws of Old to task, you dam straight we do ... and God Bless each and every one of us pard. Do we have active Cops and retired Cops who might not be Combat Vets but who can take out a Bad Guy ... absolutely .... and God Bless them as well.

 

But how many of our Top Shooters are those guys? I don't know that answer if any are or not.

 

The question of this thread is not do we have people in SASS who can take on Outlaws and win, because if that were the question than the answer would be that we absolutely do.

 

The question Larry is asking is "Who'd win in a gunfight if it were possible to transport John Wesley Hardin, Wild Bill, Jesse James, Wyatt Earp, et al so they'd be up against some of the best in SASS shooters we have now (you insert your own picks for these folks."

 

 

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

Larry i have the answer to your guestion

if we are talking pistols-SASS shooters

may have an edge under 7yrds

but if the distance is any farther (likeWBs 75 yard shot)

they would take us out ill bet!Shooting a target is

easy -Killin a man much harder! Diablo

 

 

Those killers of the Old West would try to take us out at the Loading Bench!

[Guest diablo slim shootist]

Those killers of the Old West would try to take us out at the Loading Bench!

Yep+1

[Long Branch Louie]

Only thing I can say for sure is if I had been an Old West gunfighter, I'd be on Boot Hill....

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Several have already made a good statement on this. If it was just a shooting match contest using targets, todays shooters would probable win. But if it was a matter of life and death contest, the situation would be different. Remember these old codgers lived each day for survival, and the taking of a life was nothing to them. Being fast and accurate mean nothing, and the times we live in, life is precious. The average CAS has never seen killing, hangings etc. They seen it almost daily, and lived it. They also wouldn't hesitate to not play fairly. During battles, many good trained soldiers would repeatedly load their firearms, without ever firing a shot. These old gunfighters lived to kill and would not blink an eye while doing it.

Comparing targets to a human life is vastly different, and difficult.

As to Hollywood myth of a High Noon Gunfight, several year ago, True West ran a picture of an actual High Noon Gunfight caught on camera. OK Corral was a gunfight, maybe not High Noon, but the Earps were prepared for one. There are many documented gunfights amongst individual and groups. Wild Bill Hickock, etc. had gunfights on the streets. MT

[Cypress Sun]

Another thread got me to thinking and seein' as how I didn't want to hijack their thread I thought I'd ask: Who'd win in a gunfight if it were possible to transport John Wesley Hardin, Wild Bill, Jesse James, Wyatt Earp, et al so they'd be up against some of the best in SASS shooters we have now (you insert your own picks for these folks. Each using the cowboy guns they normally use? Who'd you put your money on and why? Just askin'. (Slow night at work!)

 

I'm pretty sure that those four guys listed above would jump the timer. If they did jump the timer there wouldn't be any reason for a reshoot........just call the next deadman, I mean shooter to the line. I guess you would have to shoot them in some order also or incur a procedural. If the SASS shooter did end up surviving, I can hear the now soon to be dead famous gunfighter's last word's............."Damn gamer used both hands, thats not the way we did it in the old days".

[Guest Texas Jack Black]

This is pure enjoyment I can not wait to see what topics pop up this winter.

[Black Rock]

The New York City Police Department does an analysis of gun fights every year SOP-9. One summary analysis from 1854-1979 reflected the data collected in over 6000 gun fights. One of the conclusions that were reached was that range scores do not correlate to success in deadly encounters.

 

 

Keep your scalping knife sharp!

 

Black Rock

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

Some years back I read something concerning a military test, there was no in depth analysis given and what I remember is even less. The conclusion of the story was that the number of true warrior soldiers was very low, Im thinking less than 5%. Now do not confuse the warrior soldier with the 'good soldier' which I am sure would be much higher. Following that line of thought I think that in our ranks there should be an equal percentage number of warriors, but just like happens in war, these men would not be recognized until the rest of us think our world has collapsed, OH and being a champion shooter now will not be the indicator as to which ones it will be. We are playing a game and many of us even bring our wives and children for the fun.

 

Whether perceived a villain, such as Hardin, or a hero like WB, most of those guys lived through a lifetime of totally different moral and ethical standards. Several generations of civilization has watered down the need for a survival/killer instinct in most of us. Unlike most bad men, I think Hardin was truly mentally ill but most were killing because they were bad or because they did not take that second to weigh the value of the life against its possible threat to them. When WB spun and killed his friend, most of us would have taken that fraction of a second to recognize the person before shooting. That second most of us would take is what divides the dead from the living in the wilderness. Even most modern cops and soldiers who are battle tested would have a slight disadvantage due to their moral high ground BUT some would and do prevail and they are the ones we call real heroes while our liberal brothers think a hero is someone who lands a plain or calls the police to a crime witnessed (rather than the cop who comes to fight the threat).

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

As many have said shooting targets and killing men are two different things. Me personally I have never been shot at, so I don't know whether I would pee my pants or not. actually I have never been shot at intentionally. I was once downrange of some bad loading table placement and no one really noticed, fella had a AD with his rifle at the load table and I felt the bullet pass by my head and impact into a tree not 3 inches from my head. But what many don't take into a account is the muscle memory that many top shooters have in this sport. it's nothing to draw and triple tap a target without even thinking about, and many of us can do it very quickly and accuratly, I know what I can do at 25 yards. So it's less a matter of skill as it would be willingness to kill and desire to live. Put my family in that equation, and sorry you lose. Also, while I enjoy the old west lore and have since I was about 5, I choose not to glorify the fact that most were cold blooded killers, pimps and generaly terrible people.