Top SASS shooter vs Old West Shootists

[Squint Westwood SASS#2165]

J.B. Books (John Wayne) explained it to Gillam Rogers (Ron Howard) in "The Shootist" as not necessarily being fast, or accurate, but WILLING. Books maintained that many men in a life or death situation will hesitate for a split second, but he wouldn't. Their hesitation meant the difference between life or death. I believe this is true today as most civilians have never been in the position of having to kill somebody else who is trying to kill them. If their opponent in a face-to-face gunfight is an experienced killer, he will probably win because he has already made his mind up to kill. The slightest hesitation will make the difference. Just my view on the subject. Squint

[Yellowhouse Sam # 25171]

Apples and Oranges. Todays shooters have rules. Folks like John Wesley Hardin, Clay Allison, BTK and Killer Jim Miller were the original GAMERS. There were few documented stand up fast draws like on Gunsmoke so the original query is moot. A better question would be "Who would be most likely to bushwhack an adversary?" Those old dead guys were just better at it and weren't particularily constrained by societal mores.

 

Armstrong didn't wait on JWH to draw...he already had his pistol drawn. Heck Thomas kept a 10 ga blaster cocked and ready before the ball started. Pink Higgins just walked in a bar with a 73 Winnie and started blasting Horrels . Same goes for a zillion other confrontations.

 

And heresy! I don't believe for a minute that Wild Bill shot his pistols everyday or even pulled the loads. Most time he was to drunk to. For what its worth though, I believe that men like him, Luke Short, and even Ben Thompson would walk over hell barefooted before they backed down. But I betcha 50 bucks and a nickel they'd have guns drawn before the party started.

[Bat Masterson SASS#2919]

Little Henry was on the right track if he had just finished the J. B. Books quote. My good friend Squint Westwood beat me to the punch but here's the entire quote.

 

"First of all,friend, there's no one up there shooting back at you. Second, I found most men aren't willing, they bat an eye, or draw a breath before they shoot. I won't."

 

I couldn't explain it better no matter how many words I used.

 

My vote would have been for Wild Bill Hickok. Not the old half blind drunk that was shot in Deadwood, the young Bill who cleaned up Hays and Abilene. The story about his catching a glimpse of man approaching him with a drawn gun (his deputy as it turned out) and turning to shoot him twice without a second thought would be just that being "willing" thing Books was talking about. Living with what he had done is what caused him to become the drunk.

[hud]

I could take em all, what you never heard of KEVLAR?

hud

[G. P. Cobb]

I don't think mankind is de-volved as some suggest. I think some of today's LEO's and active military in SASS have that willingness to kill, the weaponary and skill.

I'll give the vote to the SASS cowboy over WB and JWH.

Men haven't changed just cause they carry a cell and drive a SUV.

.02

[runawayshawn]

the old west shooter would win, killing a man and shooting targets fast is very different. Although I think jesse james is the greatest outlaw that ever lived, wild bill and wyatt earp would be the ones to worry about. wild bill was deadly accurate and could kill a man in a blink of the eye, while wyatt was know to survive many close calls and come back with clothes riddled in bullets. some say he wore body armor, i say no way.

[Guest Texas Jack Black]

The pure disrespect you show is pathetic.

 

You don't know me yet you use my name.

 

You don't know me yet you make claims about me as though you do.

 

Seriously, you are pathetic.

 

You're about as disengenuous as a person can possibly be.

 

I'm sure you'll be waiting for my postings...I try and get them in for you since your life is so sad that they seem to be all you have...

 

 

PS: I learned your true makeup when you wrote me a PM and promised to knock off the BS...that lasted about one post before you started up all over again.

 

Enjoy your delusions...

 

 

SASS is a game and the wire is a discussion forum and I do wish you the best. I have invited you over the years to join me on hunting trips and fishing trips. If we met I would want to sit down over a cup of coffee .

 

Best Wishes and Happy Holidays to you and your family

 

T J B

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

SASS is a game and the wire is a discussion forum and I do wish you the best. I have invited you over the years to join me on hunting trips and fishing trips. If we met I would want to sit down over a cup of coffee .

 

Best Wishes and Happy Holidays to you and your family

 

T J B

 

Folks hopefully know what yer about...get on here and public act like a nice guy and then PM folks with nasty, rude and cuss riddled messages.

 

THAT'S TJB!!!

 

[Rye Miles #13621]

Hey TJB and Phantom, why don't ya argue via email and spare us the BS!!!! I was kinda enjoying this post until ya'll started bickering. Better yet why don't you guys have a spelling contest?

[Guest Cinch, SASS#29433]

Okay the real story is...

 

The CAS shooter would do well in many areas if allowed to transport our equipment back in time...

 

If the confrontation took place with long guns in a gun rack the CAS guy would lose...

 

If the CAS guy could quickly empty rounds into his opponents he would win...

 

If the shootout was on horse back the CAS guy would lose for several reasons, he wouldn't be able to pull his pistols past his belly from that TOOL LOOKIN CROTCH DRAW RIG that he is wearing!! He would find that saddles and crotch draws are not compatible and that the 3 Stooges really didn't ride much because they wore their guns this way!!

 

Next the CAS guy would reach for his guns and find they had fallen out of his holster rig somewhere on the trail...

 

Next the CAS guy would go for his shotgun and realize that he could only pack a rifle... Where to put that long gun while slip hammering those smokewagons...

 

Shotgun belts... Yep everyone wore one back then... But the shotgun was actually home leaning behind the cabin door...

 

The CAS guy would quickly shoot so they could get done early and go home...

 

As long as the heater/AC in the trucked worked the CAS shooter would hang in there pretty good...

[stepnmud#33546]

Curly Bill and Wyatt at Iron Springs, could be an example of a SASS shooter meeting an old west gunman.

One shooter with a 'Miss and' other one with a 'Hit'.

 

curly bill brocius biography from wikipedia;

 

Gunfight at the OK Corral and after

Following the Gunfight at the O.K. Corral in October 1881, Brocius may have participated in an attempt to kill Virgil Earp and in the assassination of Morgan Earp. Brocius was not charged, however, since there were no eyewitnesses to either crime.

 

After the killing of Frank Stilwell by the Earp party in Tucson on March 20, 1882, during the Earp vendetta ride, Brocius was deputized, given a warrant issued for Wyatt Earp by Sheriff Johnny Behan, and sent to bring back Earp, who was in the Whetstone Mountains outside town.

 

Earp, who was also looking for Brocius in revenge for the death of his brother Morgan, encountered Curly Bill on March 24, 1882, at Iron Springs (present day Mescal Springs). Brocius was camping outside his tent near the springs and was surprised while in the act of cooking at a campfire. In the gunfight that followed, Wyatt killed Brocius with a double shotgun blast to the chest from a range of about 50 feet (15 m). Brocius narrowly missed his own shot, hitting only Wyatt's long duster coat.

[Lethal Larry, SASS #58429]

Hey TJB and Phantom, why don't ya argue via email and spare us the BS!!!! I was kinda enjoying this post until ya'll started bickering. Better yet why don't you guys have a spelling contest?

 

Folks, I apologize for ever starting this post. It was meant only to get friends from across this country to engage in dialogue and speculation, not cause hard feelings and bitter confrontations. Have a Merry Christmas, hug your wife (or husband, pet your dog or cat and enjoy your friends.

LL

[Bustin Caps]

Two points on Hickock, It is well established that he cleaned out the cylinders on his Navy Colts daily by firing them every day before reloading those cap and ball .36 caliber pistols. That is 3,600 rounds a year if he never fired them again. While I fire monthly I don't fire half that, I can't afford it. I know some of you probably do.

 

Let's look at the gunfight with Dave Tutt, which according to some sources, including Bob Boze Bell, is the prototype for every beginnining of Gunsmoke gunfight scene that Hollywood ever filmed.

 

Opponent Dave Tutt from the Tutts-Everett War Tutts, a feuding fighting family. In his time he was a gunman of some reputation although that has been somewhat extinguished by time and Hickock killing him.

 

Depending on the source the two men shot at each other (duelist style IAW SASS rules) from at least 50 yards and as much as 75 yards away while both men were moving. Tutt missed, Hickock's round went into Tutt's torso undeneath his firing arm and through his heart, killing him until he was dead, dead, dead.

 

At 50 yards (let alone 75) and moving and under the stress of a "friend" shooting back, I would probably be Dave Tutt.

Anyway that's me.

fom what I have heard about the gun fight between Wild Bill and Dave Tutts , the deciding factor is that Wild Bill took the time to aim, where Dave Tutts drew fast, shot and missed and was shot dead by a well aimed bullet. The old west gun man knew knew that hitting what you were shooting at was really the most important thing in a gun fight. I will take a hit rather than a fast miss anytime in our game or theirs.

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

Come on guys, there are many eyewitness accounts that verify Wild Bill walking off the distance earlier in the morning and then ghost shooting the stage several times before Tutt arrived!

[Nate Clayton, SASS #63196]

We have no real measurable of *them* beyond stories carried over time. And obviously, this is just a game. They would shoot to kill.

 

To HECK with that hypothetical! I don't want to be shot at by ANY caliber gun.

 

I say we bring THEM to OUR game and see who can throw down! Let's put Wild Bill on stage 1 at ANY TOWN match and see who has the skills. My bet is that his guns would malfunction before he could finish the match.

 

...then we'd likely see old Bill at the local smith shop getting fitted with a short stroke rifle in .38 with full action work using this fancy smokeless stuff...shooting two-hand.

 

-Nate

[Loophole LaRue, SASS #51438]

We have no real measurable of *them* beyond stories carried over time. And obviously, this is just a game. They would shoot to kill.

 

To HECK with that hypothetical! I don't want to be shot at by ANY caliber gun.

 

I say we bring THEM to OUR game and see who can throw down! Let's put Wild Bill on stage 1 at ANY TOWN match and see who has the skills. My bet is that his guns would malfunction before he could finish the match.

 

...then we'd likely see old Bill at the local smith shop getting fitted with a short stroke rifle in .38 with full action work using this fancy smokeless stuff...shooting two-hand.

 

-Nate

 

 

Hmmm.....I have some doubts about the willingness of men like Hickcock and Hardin to accept our Rules.....let alone their reactions to some dude sticking a beeping box in their ears from behind.....

 

LL

[MMJ#89586]

We have no real measurable of *them* beyond stories carried over time. And obviously, this is just a game. They would shoot to kill.

 

To HECK with that hypothetical! I don't want to be shot at by ANY caliber gun.

 

I say we bring THEM to OUR game and see who can throw down! Let's put Wild Bill on stage 1 at ANY TOWN match and see who has the skills. My bet is that his guns would malfunction before he could finish the match.

 

...then we'd likely see old Bill at the local smith shop getting fitted with a short stroke rifle in .38 with full action work using this fancy smokeless stuff...shooting two-hand.

 

-Nate

 

That would be fun and funny to watch. Wild bill says "I got a malfunction " with one hand raised, then asks will this hurt my time? I want a do over!!! Lmao

[Guest Pukin Dog, SASS#55356-Life]

Hardin would have killed Wild Bill and wore thet bogus watch to the funeral, you may not know it BUT Hardin new it and most important, Wild Bill new it.

 

What was Hardin and WBH new too? Did they knew it or was it new to them?? Learn to spell and we may take you seriously.

[Guest Cinch, SASS#29433]

What was Hardin and WBH new too? Did they knew it or was it new to them?? Learn to spell and we may take you seriously.

 

Shucks... them thar ol west fellers cud cypher too

[Bart Solo]

Last night I watched a show about Tom Horn. Whether he killed the boy or not, the fact is he was convicted and hung because the killer used Tom Horn's MO. Tom Horn was a pretty typical professional shootist of the old west. He would wait quietly in the rocks to ambush his target when he was alone. When the target showed up he would kill without warning from a distance. I guess Tom Horn's method of killing might be called a side match. In that case Tom was a master and the fast SASS shooter would be in trouble.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Going back in time and meeting these gunfighter's one must remember:

There are , "no re-shoots"

no spotters nor TO to start the match.

No lines to say nor were to stage firearms.

There is no loading table.

Shooting your six shooter with all 10 bullets in a split second, may not allow, for the guy coming from behind or to the side who's going to gun you down, for a re-load.

If they know your fast, they may not play fair. To those professional gunfighters, it doesn't matter what direction he will be aiming. Could be from the back or side.

Compared to TV, Hollywood, or books, they shot to kill, not wound. They also knew how to face death in a gun duel. Walking to the OK Corral, the Earps and Holliday had time to think, they might win, they might die, they kept walking.

 

Protecting your love ones, might be very different from a 1 on 1 face to face, life or death. As to war, it wasn't often that it was a face to face to situation as close as a gunfight of the old west. One of the hardest thing in combat was the bayonet, and using it in combat. Even veterans cringe on the bayonet and close combat usage of it. When you see and smell your opponent up close, its a different ballgame. Its not bullseye shooting, you won't hear a clang, nor will someone raise a finger to indicate a miss. In a shootout with an old west shootist, you'll have time to think, will I have a miss fire, will my gun jamb, when do I start my draw, what if I miss with my first shot, what if I die!

 

My vote goes to the Earps, James, Hickok's, etc. Even if they were a fraction slow, they might get one more fatal shot off before they hit the ground. They were also ready to die. MT

[Bart Solo]

What Slowhand Bob is referring to is a legendary encounter between Hardin and Wild Bill where Hardin used a trick to get the drop on Wild Bill. I have a problem with the legend. According to the story Hardin was trying to impress Wild Bill not kill him. I think drawing down on a known killer of men to impress him is a sign of severe mental illness. My guess is that the entire incident was a legend of Hardin's making. Now you have to keep in mind that Hardin was a lawyer so neither severe mental illness nor lying is beyond possible when talking about Hardin or his exploits.

[Guest Texas Jack Black]

Folks hopefully know what yer about...get on here and public act like a nice guy and then PM folks with nasty, rude and cuss riddled messages.

 

THAT'S TJB!!!

 

 

Hey Phantom let's back off until after the Christmas season and wait until the weather turns cold and the wire starts to get boring.

 

PS I do not have a nasty,rude ,cuss riddled bone in my body.I am a kind, gentle SASS shooter just like you.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

Much is always made of the 75 yard shot by WBH. Many tout it as if the shot was as routine for him as putting on his boots. I once killed a bird from 75 yards with a Daisy 1894 BB gun. Since the drop on a BB gun exceeds that of WBHs pistols, the argument could be that I am a more skilled shooter than him. The fallacy of the argument is simply that I couldn’t repeat the feat if my life depended on it. There was much luck at play…and I suspect that the same was true of his shot. It would be interesting to see Bob Munden shoot a five round group at a heart sized target at 75 yards with Bill’s gun.

 

Remember Billy the Kid’s “Hello Bob!” followed by him pulling the trigger(s) on Bob’s shotgun? What about when he removed rounds or spun the cylinder on a feller’s pistol leaving it so the first cock and pull of the trigger would go snap? How many men did he kill? Many. How many did it take to kill him? One.

 

Treachery, ambushing and back-shooting is the game of the “natural born” killer, but that’s not what I understand the question to be. The original question used the word “gunfight.” A gunfight would have been brought about then the same as now. Two armed individuals get into a dispute, one decides to go postal and the shooting starts. To think that a person would stand in the middle of a dispute while seeing the other feller’s gun on his hip would not heighten his senses and cause him to give consideration to the possibility that he might have to shoot and willingness to shoot first if necessary to save his life…seems foolish to me. Mimick gunfights, that's what we do.

 

I’m not a natural born killer. The truth is I was just trying to get close enough with the BB gun to make the bird fly. I’ve never been shot or shot at, BUT I have looked down the barrels of a large caliber, nickel plated, ivory gripped derringer and seen the copper-jacketed hollow points staring back at me. I’ve also been on the wrong end of a side by side shotgun. Trust me, it heightens your senses. In both cases, the only weapon I had was my mouth. Honey dripped from it. I’m still here.

 

This question might as well be “How many licks does it take to get to the Tootsie Roll center of a Tootsie Pop?” All together now, “The world may never know.”

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

Going back in time and meeting these gunfighter's one must remember:

There are , "no re-shoots"

no spotters nor TO to start the match.

No lines to say nor were to stage firearms.

There is no loading table.

Shooting your six shooter with all 10 bullets in a split second, may not allow, for the guy coming from behind or to the side who's going to gun you down, for a re-load.

If they know your fast, they may not play fair. To those professional gunfighters, it doesn't matter what direction he will be aiming. Could be from the back or side.

Compared to TV, Hollywood, or books, they shot to kill, not wound. They also knew how to face death in a gun duel. Walking to the OK Corral, the Earps and Holliday had time to think, they might win, they might die, they kept walking.

 

Protecting your love ones, might be very different from a 1 on 1 face to face, life or death. As to war, it wasn't often that it was a face to face to situation as close as a gunfight of the old west. One of the hardest thing in combat was the bayonet, and using it in combat. Even veterans cringe on the bayonet and close combat usage of it. When you see and smell your opponent up close, its a different ballgame. Its not bullseye shooting, you won't hear a clang, nor will someone raise a finger to indicate a miss. In a shootout with an old west shootist, you'll have time to think, will I have a miss fire, will my gun jamb, when do I start my draw, what if I miss with my first shot, what if I die!

 

My vote goes to the Earps, James, Hickok's, etc. Even if they were a fraction slow, they might get one more fatal shot off before they hit the ground. They were also ready to die. MT

 

 

+1

 

It would be a great questions for real Historians who really know the truth of just how many face to face gunfights that there were? I'm just an amature history buff, but from what I read not very many?

 

Even the OK Coral was not some walk down main street, it was LEOs attempting to enforce a City Ordinance. One of the things that gunfight did was demonstrate the difference between Rustlers and Thieves verses Gun Men and Killers.

 

The Bad Guys were outgunned by experience in killing.

[Gus Blazer, SASS #74376]

"Bat Masterson, a renowned peace officer among the breed, recalled that when it came to settling a dispute, any one of the numerous gunfighters he had known, "would not have hesitated a moment to put up his life as the stake to be played for.""

 

Old West: The Gunfighters., By the Editors of Time Life Books, 2004

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

I take what some have posted on here as very disrespectful of the CAS shooter. The nonsensical talk about light loads, waiting on the timer or TO, spotters holding up fingers. Do you really think ANY of your CAS friends would enter a gunfight with their CAS ammo? Do you think ANY of your CAS friends would enter a gunfight expecting it to be a CAS stage? Damn! Some of ya'll sure try hard to be condescending and insulting and some are even successful. When you think so little of your pards and our game why have any part in it?

 

This could be a fun and interesting discourse.

 

Of course some of our CAS shooters could be killers and some couldn't. Is it easy to enter a gunfight thinking today may be your last. I doubt it. That's why whiskey was also known as liquid courage. People ain't so different now from then.

 

If you want a fun, educational read get yourself a copy of: Encyclopedia of Western Gunfights by O'Neal

 

Possum

[Texas John Ringo, SASS #10138]

I take what some have posted on here as very disrespectful of the CAS shooter. The nonsensical talk about light loads, waiting on the timer or TO, spotters holding up fingers. Do you really think ANY of your CAS friends would enter a gunfight with their CAS ammo? Do you think ANY of your CAS friends would enter a gunfight expecting it to be a CAS stage? Damn! Some of ya'll sure try hard to be condescending and insulting and some are even successful. When you think so little of your pards and our game why have any part in it?

 

This could be a fun and interesting discourse.

 

Of course some of our CAS shooters could be killers and some couldn't. Is it easy to enter a gunfight thinking today may be your last. I doubt it. That's why whiskey was also known as liquid courage. People ain't so different now from then.

 

If you want a fun, educational read get yourself a copy of: Encyclopedia of Western Gunfights by O'Neal

 

Possum

 

Good book, got one myself.

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

There are so many aspects of the OP question.

 

If it were a Shooting Competition, then my bets are all on our SASS shooters. From what I've learned lately, even our fast shooters aren't as fast as our very very fast shooters.

 

And yes, there were many many Shooting Competitions during the late 1800s in everything from a bunch of different Wild West Shows to just Trick and Sharp Shooting exhibitions. And yes, there were many many shooters claiming to be the best.

 

Here's a pretty good article on the subject: http://www.targetballs.com/storyVault_4.php

 

If it were like what Duece Stevens mentioned and was a decission to kill someone to protect and defend his family if they were threatened, then I do not think Duece and or any other person in SASS would find a problem with taking a life.

 

I think there are a couple of distinctions that should be made. A policeman may have to use deadly force because the situation calls for it and there's no other resort available. At least that's what I was taught. The soldier or Marine does it because it is his duty and that is what he is trained to do under orders. Do our SASS memebrs fit into either of those two catagories? Absolutely.

 

Back in the late 1970s when I was on the list as a Cross Country Chaser transporting Prisoners. I remember reading about what some of those Bozos did to take the trip they were on. Some of those guys killed mercilessly without conscience. I knew my duty was to get them where they had to go to, as we used to say, "In a bag or not."

 

I always knew the "rules" as stated on my Deadly Force Card. I also knew that the first chance anyone of those Bozos had, he would kill me without a second thought. The big difference as I saw it way back then is pretty much the same now as how I see it. I believe that those of us who live within the law and enforce the law show that we value life, while those that are so willing to return to some sort of savage existance don't.

 

Now you take the savage sick mindset of Killers like say the Old West outlaw who killed a man for snoring, or another outlaw who killed a man over a bad look, or how about man who killed another over a pocket watch lost in a poker game, those are pathological and psychopathic killers.

 

So to try to pit a SASS shooter up against a Wild Bill Hickok who is known to kill over a cheap pocket watch, it's apples and oranges.

 

Under no threat or sign of duress then I don't see any of our SASS shooters killing anyone just because of peer pressure, bullying, or browbeating.

 

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Wild Bill's watch was not a "cheap pocket watch". It wasn't over the watch per se. The watch was just the physical embodiment of the bone of contention, it could just as well been a tie pin or some other what not.

 

The thing is Bill asked Tutt not to display the watch in public and give him the opportunity to win it back. Tutt responded that he would by gawd be wearing the watch for all to see on the public square at high noon on the morrow.

 

That mouthy foolhardiness sealed his fate. By showing up wearing the watch, he forced Bill to kill him as a matter of honor. Matters of honor were much more highly prized in those days than now. He died, not over a watch, but for not knowing how to comport himself in a decent manner.

[Parson Delacroix]

Very interesting question indeed. Several of my shooting pards are ex-Marines who served in combat in Nam. I think if push comes to shove, they would respond accordingly. Who knows what goes through the mind of a man in the middle of a gunfight except those that have been there. I have had rounds going past me but, it wasn't a gunfight. I thought about making it one by returning fire. It happend on two occassions when out shooting a shooter got away from the group and began shooting at snakes on water. Bullets glancing off of the water and whizzing past your head definitely makes you think of your mortality. The second time was deer hunting where the drivers were carrying guns and the standers were in harms way. Neither was fun or funny.

 

In the old west, many folks especially the gunfighters didn't have much to lose if they lost. Some only had the clothes on their backs and the horses they rode. We live in different times and different social and moral rules which govern most peoples lives. I do think that if and when push comes to shove the shooters of today would act accordingly.

 

In a stand up gunfight where someone yells, "Draw", when there is no other option, the CAS shooter would have the upper hand at the draw mostly by the equipment being used. Most holsters are either metal lined or formed to the gun for it to come out easier. For stead fast nerves in the middle of a crisis with bullets flying by ones head goes to the Old West shootist. Distance between combatants would dictate speed then one has to fall back on accuracy. Are our top shooters both fast and accurate? Yes. And some have mentioned target size. Have you ever considered the average width of a man from shoulder to shoulder? I am a husky fella which translates into around 18 plus inches. The torso including the lower stomach area would probably be 24 inches give or take. Some gunfights happened in the streets, back alleys, or just out in the open yet some were in saloons and the men were only a few feet apart. Survival becomes a determining factor and willingness to not only kill but also to be killed comes into the mix. What do we have to lose compared to the old west shootist? If the gun battle were to take place, I'd have to say many people would be lying on the ground dead or dying on both sides. In the old west in some instances where a person was known to be good with a gun, they usually got ambushed or just confronted and shot without warning. That would be the difference in a cold blooded killer of yesterday compared to someone who has grown up with descent laws of morality today.

 

That is why it is hard for us to understand the menatality of some of the war torn areas of Africa where 10 year olds carry AK's and kill at will and don't have a moral conflict. They were born into it. That above all is the determining factor in my humble opinion of who would win between Old West Shootist and the Top Cowboy Shooters of today. We have better equipment and can practice our skills but when it comes to dealing death or dying, we weren't born into it.

[BJT]

Obviously, the Old West Shootist would win. Timers had not been invented yet.

 

Standby........BANG

 

Cheers,

BJT

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Obviously, the Old West Shootist would win. Timers had not been invented yet.

 

Standby........BANG

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

 

Yep.

 

And don't forget about me having a bad draw and slip hammerin. I would yell out 'RESTART'.

 

 

..........Widder

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

First, sorry iffen my spellin offends anyone here and as fer taken me serious, hell I figure a fellow who would take a name like Pukin Dawg by choice, woodnt want to go there! Ever wonder what the dawg eats to make him a Pukin Dawg, in the south we got another name fer them dawgs, and their diet. Just all in good fun pards. no slight intended. :ph34r:

 

I am gettin kinda long in the tooth and my memory helps prove it but there was something I read in a cheap paperback one time, but have no bonafideez on the information. It was a small bit in a book about WBs life and the author, who held WB in high reguard, ventured the opinion that the meeting between the two did occur in his opinion. Amongst the reasons were two compelling arguments that he claimed as if undeniable, both men were in town together for several days and there was an ordinance in effect barring the carrying of firearms. No one would consider it credible that the still young and high strung Hardin would have given up his guns and the other being that the older Hickok, who was by now going blind, would not have had to 'look into it'. After the release of Hardins book it is said that there were supporters for both sides of the argument, some claiming first hand knowledge as witnesses. Naturally Hardins friends the cattlemen would have backed his story up while townspeople would have denied the likelihood. Funny how both men were murdered by a bullet to the back of the head while gamblin in a bar room. At any rate, no arguments will ever git settled here, just new ones started.

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

Wild Bill's watch was not a "cheap pocket watch". It wasn't over the watch per se. The watch was just the physical embodiment of the bone of contention, it could just as well been a tie pin or some other what not.

 

The thing is Bill asked Tutt not to display the watch in public and give him the opportunity to win it back. Tutt responded that he would by gawd be wearing the watch for all to see on the public square at high noon on the morrow.

 

That mouthy foolhardiness sealed his fate. By showing up wearing the watch, he forced Bill to kill him as a matter of honor. Matters of honor were much more highly prized in those days than now. He died, not over a watch, but for not knowing how to comport himself in a decent manner.

 

Remind me never to play poker with you. Because pard, with all due respect whatever I win in poker is mine to wear as I want.

 

Tutt won the watch in a fair poker game, it was his to wear if he wanted to. Tutt wasn't intimidated by Hickok at all.

 

I think the whole thing had to do with Tutt being a former Confederate Soldier and Hickok being a former Union Scout.

 

The day of the shooting, both shooters did not "draw". According to eyewitness accounts Hickok already had his pistol drawn and resting on his left arm already aiming his weapon when he called out "Dave" and fired.

 

It was not like in the movies where two men stand face to face and both draw at the same time. Hickok was ready to fire when Tutt turnered the corner.

 

Don't take what I'm saying as a slap against Hickok, he was actually very smart since Tutt also had a reputation as well. All I'm trying to do is illustrate the way those Old West shootists did things.

 

And by the way, do you know what ever happened to the pocket watch? I read where some Historians say he lost it in another poker game because it was not among his stuff after he was killed in Deadwood.