Interesting perspective on modern day gunsmithing

[Buckshot Bob]

 

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

50 minutes ago, Buckshot Bob said:

 

My gunsmith for ten years (ever since we moved to Arizona) has been David Fink.  He was working out of a shop in his back yard in Chino Valley about 17 miles away,  and picked up and delivered guns, and did amazingly good work.

 

Then he moved from Chino Valley to Pauldin, maybe 10 miles further away and took over the gunsmithery at Gunsight Academy (Jeff Cooper's baby.)  He doesn't pick up nor deliver guns any more and his prices have gone up.  He's added equipment, master smiths in different areas of expertise, and has learned new skills in all fields of smithing.  He's also made such a good name that he has a massive backlog, mostly for combat and specialty guns, BUT HE STILL DOES GREAT WORK on cowboy guns, collector pieces and everyday "let's go have fun" and sporting guns, even restorations on Grandpa's old  "meat-in-the-pot" guns.

 

He introduced me to Rachel Wells, an internationally known and respected engraver.  She's amazing and has pictures of her work that will melt your heart and burn you brain.

 

You'll have to wait for either one of them, but I'm here to tell you he and Rachel are both worth the time and cost for their work.

 

I don't have a lot of their finer work, but what I have is top of the line.

 

Know what else?  Both are wonderful, friendly, and enjoyable folks to be around. 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

31 minutes ago, Forty Rod SASS 3935 said:

My gunsmith for ten years (ever since we moved to Arizona) has been David Fink.  He was working out of a shop in his back yard in Chino Valley about 17 miles away,  and picked up and delivered guns, and did amazingly good work.

 

Then he moved from Chino Valley to Pauldin, maybe 10 miles further away and took over the gunsmithery at Gunsight Academy (Jeff Cooper's baby.)  He doesn't pick up nor deliver guns any more and his prices have gone up.  He's added equipment, master smiths in different areas of expertise, and has learned new skills in all fields of smithing.  He's also made such a good name that he has a massive backlog, mostly for combat and specialty guns, BUT HE STILL DOES GREAT WORK on cowboy guns, collector pieces and everyday "let's go have fun" and sporting guns, even restorations on Grandpa's old  "meat-in-the-pot" guns.

 

He introduced me to Rachel Wells, an internationally known and respected engraver.  She's amazing and has pictures of her work that will melt your heart and burn you brain.

 

You'll have to wait for either one of them, but I'm here to tell you he and Rachel are both worth the time and cost for their work.

 

I don't have a lot of their finer work, but what I have is top of the line.

 

Know what else?  Both are wonderful, friendly, and enjoyable folks to be around. 

It appears Rachel passed away last year.

😔

 

www.dcourier.com/tncms/asset/editorial/dd52ecd8-788f-52aa-abfd-52ed3fee1346

 

Edited September 21 by Abilene Slim SASS 81783

[J-BAR #18287]

Nature abhors a vacuum.  Other smiths will emerge to replace the revered artisans we have loved.  They will be winnowed by the fires of internet natural selection and word of mouth experiences, to become another generation of respected craftsmen.

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

1 hour ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

Nature abhors a vacuum.  Other smiths will emerge to replace the revered artisans we have loved.  They will be winnowed by the fires of internet natural selection and word of mouth experiences, to become another generation of respected craftsmen.

I'd like to think that you're right, but part of the problem is that they're not making GUNS like that anymore. It seem like the majority of new guns coming out today are plastic, striker fired pistols, (Glocks), and ARs. New gunsmiths aren't interested in working on older guns. 

It's kind of like that old story about the guy who takes his '69 MUstang to the local mechanic. He tells the young mechanic how he needs the timing, dwell, vacuum advance set, etc. The young mechanic, who doesn't know how to do anything if he can't test it with his OBD2 scanner, calls to the back room, "Hey dad, there's another Old guy out here to see you." 

If you've read some of my posts, you might know that I have great affection for Taurus 85 revolvers. I have a half dozen of them, three 2" and three 3". I used to have four 2" and two 3". I came across a guy on ebay that had a 3" barrel and cylinder for sale. I bought them with the intent of making another 3" gun from one of the 2" guns. I talked to several "gunsmiths" around here, and none of them wanted the project. I finally managed to find a guy to do it, but it wasn't easy. The only things the other guys wanted to work on were Glocks and ARs.

[Buckshot Bob]

4 hours ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

I'd like to think that you're right, but part of the problem is that they're not making GUNS like that anymore. It seem like the majority of new guns coming out today are plastic, striker fired pistols, (Glocks), and ARs. New gunsmiths aren't interested in working on older guns. 

It's kind of like that old story about the guy who takes his '69 MUstang to the local mechanic. He tells the young mechanic how he needs the timing, dwell, vacuum advance set, etc. The young mechanic, who doesn't know how to do anything if he can't test it with his OBD2 scanner, calls to the back room, "Hey dad, there's another Old guy out here to see you." 

If you've read some of my posts, you might know that I have great affection for Taurus 85 revolvers. I have a half dozen of them, three 2" and three 3". I used to have four 2" and two 3". I came across a guy on ebay that had a 3" barrel and cylinder for sale. I bought them with the intent of making another 3" gun from one of the 2" guns. I talked to several "gunsmiths" around here, and none of them wanted the project. I finally managed to find a guy to do it, but it wasn't easy. The only things the other guys wanted to work on were Glocks and ARs.

Specializing usually allows anyone to make a better living. More familiarity with what you’re working on and less money involved with tooling. Some mechanics only work on certain brands of automobiles. Or transmissions, Some electricians only do residential or industrial work . The AR is the most popular rifle in America right now. And while the Glock has a ton of competition I’d still have to rate it the most popular handgun. Everyone is knocking it off, it’s the new 1911. It’s just the popular business of the day. When I was a kid every gunsmith was converting bolt actions to sporters . Modifying shotguns for target shooters and customizing revolvers. Today you can just buy whatever you want from the manufacturer for the most part. Look at the selection of clay target guns anymore or 1911’s . The times just change. There are guys making a living painting guns , it’s probably more popular than bluing anymore. Try to find a gunsmith that does cold rust bluing. We have moved to more of a replace than repair society. And many times it’s the cost that’s driving that decision.

[Chantry]

I dabble in owning and shooting antique SxS shotguns, primarily British ones.  There aren't very many spare parts so If something breaks, a new part often needs to  be made, usually by hand.  So finding an "old school" gunsmith* is getting more difficult everyday and most of them are getting older and retiring.

 

 

*An "old school" gunsmith is someone who can make new parts, usually from scratch.

[Buckshot Bob]

6 minutes ago, Chantry said:

I dabble in owning and shooting antique SxS shotguns, primarily British ones.  There aren't very many spare parts so If something breaks, a new part often needs to  be made, usually by hand.  So finding an "old school" gunsmith* is getting more difficult everyday and most of them are getting older and retiring.

 

 

*An "old school" gunsmith is someone who can make new parts, usually from scratch.

They still exist , I know a couple of guys who restore old doubles , make firing pins, springs, bend stocks , rust blue, etc… 

Very few people are willing to pay what it costs , so you need to build a clientele to make a living specializing double guns. The internet has really helped I know a few people who get the majority of their work from brown Santa every day. But if you want a good stock fitting you’re probably going to have to travel. 

[Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001]

had to think about this , knowing a few quite talented smiths I see the following reasons for the lack of "Old Time Smiths" 

over regulation 

lack of pay 

throw away mentality 

 

 given , smiths are supposed to price them selfs at the same price or better than mec.shop prices around here $125 and up per hr 

they lose money  due to folks , thinking well it only took 30 mins to fix the issue , NO thought of the time spent finding/making the part 

tools , material, knowledge , labor to fit the parts properly , 

 

if you are NOT making enough to live on , it is best to shutter the place and do something else 

 

 Chickasaw Bill 

[Buckshot Bob]

A good gunsmith can generally make more money doing something else . You really have to want to be a gunsmith. Most I have known consider it a labor of love 

[bgavin]

Same goes for the computer business.

 

[Chantry]

54 minutes ago, Buckshot Bob said:

They still exist , I know a couple of guys who restore old doubles , make firing pins, springs, bend stocks , rust blue, etc… 

Very few people are willing to pay what it costs , so you need to build a clientele to make a living specializing double guns. The internet has really helped I know a few people who get the majority of their work from brown Santa every day. But if you want a good stock fitting you’re probably going to have to travel. 

 The best ones don't have to advertise and sometimes don't even have a website. 

 

I had a very good one one an hour from me that retired a couple of months ago.  I was lucky in that he recommended another gunsmith about the same distance away that has been good so far.

[J-BAR #18287]

A gunsmith is a machinist with a special interest.  As long as there are folks who can operate a lathe and milling machine competently, we will have gunsmiths.  I worry more about laws interfering with gunsmiths than I do about lack of machinist talent.

[Buckshot Bob]

30 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

A gunsmith is a machinist with a special interest.  As long as there are folks who can operate a lathe and milling machine competently, we will have gunsmiths.  I worry more about laws interfering with gunsmiths than I do about lack of machinist talent.

Or tyrants. During this current administration I’ve heard a number of complaints from FFL holders of extremely critical audits . No one looks forward to being abused by the federal government. And the laws haven’t changed just how the department is run 

[Buckshot Bob]

38 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

A gunsmith is a machinist with a special interest.  As long as there are folks who can operate a lathe and milling machine competently, we will have gunsmiths.  I worry more about laws interfering with gunsmiths than I do about lack of machinist talent.

Sometimes not . Stock makers are a special breed , especially the ones who do one offs which means they do most of their work free hand without pre made patterns or a panatograph machine. And you can still do an awful lot of general repair work without a lathe or a mill . And with a drill press , belt sander and a fordom tool you can accomplish allot . Some even specialize in just stock checkering or engraving. Although laser engraving seems to becoming a speciality if you can afford the machine and learn to use it . There’s more than one way to skin a cat , especially if you live in OH  

[Chantry]

2 hours ago, Buckshot Bob said:

Or tyrants. During this current administration I’ve heard a number of complaints from FFL holders of extremely critical audits . No one looks forward to being abused by the federal government. And the laws haven’t changed just how the department is run 

 

Two gunsmiths in CT got caught up in those ATF audits, both chose not to keep their FFL's.

 

The gunsmith I am currently using told me the ATF gave him a hard time about not being open according to the shop's listed hours.  The gunsmith had stopped that morning to do some bank deposits.

Edited September 21 by Chantry

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

On 9/20/2024 at 7:01 PM, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

It appears Rachel passed away last year.

😔

 

www.dcourier.com/tncms/asset/editorial/dd52ecd8-788f-52aa-abfd-52ed3fee1346

 

Damn.  I didn't know that.  It's been a couple of years since I went in there, but the sign is still up.

 

I'll treasure the few pieces she did for me.

 

Is Kelly Laster still in business?  He did some really good engraving work for me but that's also a few years back.

Edited September 23 by Forty Rod SASS 3935

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

It took me a while to learn that there were gunsmiths/shops that specialize in the cowboy guns. They know what a SASS shooter is looking for. The same is true in other shooting sports. Over 90% of ICORE shooters use S&W revolvers. There are a handful of smiths that many of them use if they can't do the work themselves. Various CZs are popular in the modern action shooting games and there are several outfits that specialize in them. Having work done by those smiths is way different then someone who is a general gunsmith/parts swapper.

[Buckshot Bob]

12 hours ago, Chantry said:

 

Two gunsmiths in CT got caught up in those ATF audits, both chose not to keep their FFL's.

 

The gunsmith I am currently using told me the ATF gave him a hard time about not being open according to the shop's listed hours.  The gunsmith had stopped that morning to do some bank deposits.

And if you a one person operation I guess that means you’re not allowed to get sick or injured, car accidents, life, etc….

[Pat Riot]

What’s missing from nearly every gun related forum, including this one, is a list of gunsmiths and parts suppliers that fix guns and or supply parts for the guns of interest in that forum. 
 

I do a lot of my own gun repairs. Repairs that can be done by hand and with hand tools. But, as one of my signature lines says, “a man has got to know his limitations”. If I need matching work or something done that requires really precise workmanship I seek out a gunsmith and I pay the price quoted or billed without any complaint. Of course I do one thing most people forget or do not do. If it’s a special or hard job I set monetary parameters. I will say “Get prices on parts then estimate labor and proceed, but if the cost is going to be over (a certain amount) please call me for approval to move forward.  There are no surprises that way. For me and for the Gunsmith. 
 

Here’s something neat and dear to my heart - like rancid meat roses or bureaucrats…

Buying a gun from a SASS shooters and hearing the words “I slicked it up a little bit. I didn’t do much with it just trimmed a spring or two.” Bull Sh**!
I have bought several guns from cowboy “pards” (a real “Pard” isn’t a bold faced liar - notice small “p” vs capital “P”) 
Just because you talked to Coyote Cap or watched the Steve’s Gunz video it doesn’t make one knowledgeable enough to be a “gunsmith”. See my signature line for clarification. 
 

Just because someone only works on ARs or Glocks doesn’t mean they are NOT a gunsmith. They are or may be a “specialized gunsmith”. I would prefer going to a specialized gunsmith that works on special guns or a special area of gunsmithing. 
Would you take your custom AR to Joe Sh** the Rag Man gunsmithing if you knew that Joe Sh** the Rag Man only did gun finishes, like; bluing, plating or coating? No? Why not, that’s specialized gunsmithing outside the specialty you need, right?

 

By the way, just because a shop sells modern sporting rifles and handguns it does not mean that they do not have a qualified gunsmith on staff. A good example would be Rifle Supply in Huntington Beach, CA. They are a tactical gun store that occasionally has traditional firearms for sell. They also do a very brisk business in tactical or modern gun gunsmithing, but a couple of those “tacticool” gunsmiths will and do work on older guns up to a point. If you took a Colt DS in there with a timing issue (another specialized task) that would stump them but doing other tasks would be no problem for them. 
Don’t assume that a tactical store does not have qualified gunsmiths. 
 

Sorry for the long post

[Dubious Don #56333]

Y'all noticed that, huh? LOL.

Hard not to. In my town, which is pretty dang big, especially these days there used to be a big variety of gunsmiths doing custom stock work, metal work, anything and everything you'd care to do to a firearm. Many of them learned the trade like I did, under the wing of someone else with a little schoolin' throwed in on the side. And books. Lotsa books. I just never got 'round to going back to a college that taught gunsmithing and getting a degree. Rather than go into bidness for myself, I went another direction which was just as if not more, satisfying work. With gunsmithing throwed in there for a good while, LOL. 

 

All of the older fellers I come up with are gone now.  Other than "armorer" types or parts-put-er-on -er's, I've not found anyone in the Metro area that does anything close to the work of David Fink. Never met the man, but I know him by reputation. Like Hans Vang. I still have guns that Vang did back in the day. And other smiths, long gone. Not to say that there aren't decent gunsmiths around here in the Phoenix area. Several. Just not to the level of those I was used to seeing as a matter of course, not the exceptions, you know?

[Pat Riot]

Technology changes, as do the needs to support that technology. 
Also, laws and regulations change. For better or for worse. 
People also change. 
Many people or businesses that did bluing and the even more specialized color case hardening, have gone away due to regulations. Also the cost for handling hazmats and hazardous waste have gone up. Way up, in regard to waste. 
Companies that do bluing now have to pay big bucks to stay in business, especially in heavily regulated states like CA, PA, NY, etc.

If you contact a company to do bluing nowadays there is no more of these $150 bluing jobs. This is one of the reasons some people like Cerakote or Duracoat. It’s cheaper. It’s quicker. It’s tougher. 

Regarding people changing. How many of you remember when men and women wore dressier clothing just to go shopping? In the days of the 60’s that I remember I recall men wearing suits and hats and women dressed in nice dresses to go shopping on Saturday. These folks were older folks that became adults in the 30’s and 40’d. 
How many of you that lament the demise of the old gunsmiths that are no longer in business dress in the fashion that was popular when this “old” gunsmith was in business in his hey-day? How many of you drive 1960’s cars and have 1960’s appliances at home? And I am not talking about specialty cars like muscle cars or hot rods.

Technology changes, as do people. People don’t hang on to old cars or appliances hoping young folks will mature and become old tech mechanics and old tech appliance repairmen. It just ain’t gonna happen. And if it does you will pay high prices, just like you will at a good specialized gunsmith these days. 
 

 

[Pat Riot]

I just went in and put on my fire-suit so knock yourself out trying to roast me. 

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

6 hours ago, Dubious Don #56333 said:

Y'all noticed that, huh? LOL.

Hard not to. In my town, which is pretty dang big, especially these days there used to be a big variety of gunsmiths doing custom stock work, metal work, anything and everything you'd care to do to a firearm. Many of them learned the trade like I did, under the wing of someone else with a little schoolin' throwed in on the side. And books. Lotsa books. I just never got 'round to going back to a college that taught gunsmithing and getting a degree. Rather than go into bidness for myself, I went another direction which was just as if not more, satisfying work. With gunsmithing throwed in there for a good while, LOL. 

 

All of the older fellers I come up with are gone now.  Other than "armorer" types or parts-put-er-on -er's, I've not found anyone in the Metro area that does anything close to the work of David Fink. Never met the man, but I know him by reputation. Like Hans Vang. I still have guns that Vang did back in the day. And other smiths, long gone. Not to say that there aren't decent gunsmiths around here in the Phoenix area. Several. Just not to the level of those I was used to seeing as a matter of course, not the exceptions, you know?

Come on up.  I'll take you to lunch and we can go out and I'll introduce you to David.  We may get lucky and his wife, Rachel , (a pleasure in her  own right) might be there, too ...or, if you've been really good, God might arrange for his daughter Abby to be there.  That kid alone is worth a trip there.

[Buckshot Bob]

 

[Buckshot Bob]

 

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

9 hours ago, Pat Riot said:

What’s missing from nearly every gun related forum, including this one, is a list of gunsmiths and parts suppliers that fix guns and or supply parts for the guns of interest in that forum. 
 

I do a lot of my own gun repairs. Repairs that can be done by hand and with hand tools. But, as one of my signature lines says, “a man has got to know his limitations”. If I need matching work or something done that requires really precise workmanship I seek out a gunsmith and I pay the price quoted or billed without any complaint. Of course I do one thing most people forget or do not do. If it’s a special or hard job I set monetary parameters. I will say “Get prices on parts then estimate labor and proceed, but if the cost is going to be over (a certain amount) please call me for approval to move forward.  There are no surprises that way. For me and for the Gunsmith. 
 

Here’s something neat and dear to my heart - like rancid meat roses or bureaucrats…

Buying a gun from a SASS shooters and hearing the words “I slicked it up a little bit. I didn’t do much with it just trimmed a spring or two.” Bull Sh**!
I have bought several guns from cowboy “pards” (a real “Pard” isn’t a bold faced liar - notice small “p” vs capital “P”) 
Just because you talked to Coyote Cap or watched the Steve’s Gunz video it doesn’t make one knowledgeable enough to be a “gunsmith”. See my signature line for clarification. 
 

Just because someone only works on ARs or Glocks doesn’t mean they are NOT a gunsmith. They are or may be a “specialized gunsmith”. I would prefer going to a specialized gunsmith that works on special guns or a special area of gunsmithing. 
Would you take your custom AR to Joe Sh** the Rag Man gunsmithing if you knew that Joe Sh** the Rag Man only did gun finishes, like; bluing, plating or coating? No? Why not, that’s specialized gunsmithing outside the specialty you need, right?

 

By the way, just because a shop sells modern sporting rifles and handguns it does not mean that they do not have a qualified gunsmith on staff. A good example would be Rifle Supply in Huntington Beach, CA. They are a tactical gun store that occasionally has traditional firearms for sell. They also do a very brisk business in tactical or modern gun gunsmithing, but a couple of those “tacticool” gunsmiths will and do work on older guns up to a point. If you took a Colt DS in there with a timing issue (another specialized task) that would stump them but doing other tasks would be no problem for them. 
Don’t assume that a tactical store does not have qualified gunsmiths. 
 

Sorry for the long post

Now where did you get that phrase? It was one of my Dad's sayings and it's been in my "quiver" of sayings for close to 75 years.  Glad you kept it alive.  

[Pat Riot]

1 hour ago, Forty Rod SASS 3935 said:

Now where did you get that phrase? It was one of my Dad's sayings and it's been in my "quiver" of sayings for close to 75 years.  Glad you kept it alive.  

The first time I heard it was in boot camp in the Navy. I’ve been using it ever since. 

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

It almost always gets a comment of some sort. 

[WOLFY]

Chuy (Jesus Aguirre) was an old school gunsmith here in El Paso, it kinda broke my heart when he retired.  There are a couple other “gunsmiths” locally, but many are more akin to “parts installers” imho.  

Edited September 23 by WOLFY

[Pat Riot]

The closest “licensed” gunsmith to me is 32 miles. Oddly enough the second closest is like 32.5 miles. One is south of me and one is north. 
I was in a gun store in Fairmont one day and asked if they had a gunsmith they could recommend. The counter guy says “What do you need a gunsmith for?” 
I told him “Just for general things. I haven’t encountered any gunsmithing shops here.”

He said “If you need something done just let us know. We have people that can pretty much do anything you need around here.”

”Are they licensed gunsmiths?”

”Awe, you don’t need a license to be a gunsmith around here.” Then he winked at me. 
“Are any of them named Bubba?”

All 4 of the guys behind the counter laughed. The guy I was talking to said “If you need something done just let us know.” with a smile. 
Not a real confidence builder, in my book. 

[WOLFY]

it's sad... I finally got the cash to have the .380 chopped and now it's all "I don't do that".

[ORNERY OAF]

The only gunsmith around us that I would/and have used luckily  is Lassiter, he is great and has a backlog. Beware the gunsmith you can get in with today.used to be a couple but age and death has really cut them down. Finding one to work on old guns like rolling blocks or that style is really hard