Trying to fast at shooting duelist

[Stagecoach south]

I know practice is the best way to get faster Which I’m doing as much as possible.  I’m just looking for some little tips of tricks to help me shoot my guns a little faster. I shoot a Ruger old model Vaquero’s in 38 special. I’ve heard some people talk about changing the hammers out to the Blackhawk or the Bisley. Any pointers would be great. You guys have always been a great source of knowledge on here.

[Sinagua Ranger]

I found that the lower Blackhawk hammers do speed up one handed shooting. Cimarron also has a lower hammer occasionally in stock.

[OK Dirty Dan]

I would definitely suggest going with a lowered hammer if you have difficulty reaching the spur without rocking the revolver. I say that because one of the main things I see from other duelist shooters which costs them time on their pistols is turning the hammer cocking motion, which in my opinion should be a thumb-only movement, into a full hand/wrist movement. That time with your gun off-target to cock the hammer adds up. 

But mostly, as you say, it's practice. That can be practice dry firing and transitions at home, or live fire at the range. Transitions are key for every category so I'd spend some time at home getting comfortable getting the first pistol back into leather (without looking it in) at the same time as you're pulling the second from leather and getting it on target. That will minimize your pistol-to-pistol transition time and also allow your dominant hand (I assume every double duelist generally shoots dominant hand first for transition reasons) to move onto the rifle/shotgun earlier therefore minimizing that transition time.

 

Edit: Just realized I was assuming you're shooting double duelist. Maybe you aren't. Whether you are or not, still practicing in and out of leather will be of benefit.

Edited April 22 by OK Dirty Dan

[doc roy l. pain]

As Ranger said unless you have very large hands and a good reach with your thumb, lowered hammers will be of benefit. 

[Stagecoach south]

21 minutes ago, OK Dirty Dan said:

I would definitely suggest going with a lowered hammer if you have difficulty reaching the spur without rocking the revolver. I say that because one of the main things I see from other duelist shooters which costs them time on their pistols is turning the hammer cocking motion, which in my opinion should be a thumb-only movement, into a full hand/wrist movement. That time with your gun off-target to cock the hammer adds up. 

But mostly, as you say, it's practice. That can be practice dry firing and transitions at home, or live fire at the range. Transitions are key for every category so I'd spend some time at home getting comfortable getting the first pistol back into leather (without looking it in) at the same time as you're pulling the second from leather and getting it on target. That will minimize your pistol-to-pistol transition time and also allow your dominant hand (I assume every double duelist generally shoots dominant hand first for transition reasons) to move onto the rifle/shotgun earlier therefore minimizing that transition time.

 

Edit: Just realized I was assuming you're shooting double duelist. Maybe you aren't. Whether you are or not, still practicing in and out of leather will be of benefit.

Yeah, I shoot double duelist cause I’ve got nerve damage in my right hand so I try to take some of the brunt with the left

[Captain Bill Burt]

I'm not a fan of short stroked Rugers, but then I'm not a duelist either.  Lowered hammers would probably help, or short stroking, or both.  I know several duelists who went with Single Sixes.  The smaller frame gets your thumb closer to the hammer even with stock hammers and no short stroke.

[Hawkeye Kid]

Lower hammers, short stroke, and try the new extended grips from Eagle Grip.  Will help keep pistol on target while cocking.  If not shooting double duelist you need to learn and practice.   Work on transitions to rifle/shotgun with off hand.

[Dantankerous]

SBH hammers do help a lot, or switch to Bisley Rugers if they "feel" or point better.

 

I've tried short strokes on Rugers and find they do not offer near as much benefit as lowered hammers. The short strokes throw me off.

 

Dry firing. Lots of practice.

 

I shoot Ruger Bisleys and love them but when I put SBH hammers on my Ruger plowhandles I noticed they are a very close second in terms of speed even with the different grip design.

 

Try swapping hammers first. It is easy.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I might add...... "PROPER" practice is most important.

 

Its easy to get sloppy and use bad techniques in dry firing.   So be cautious.

Some of the posters above have world class credibility in shooting Duelist.   Take their advice wisely.

 

Another world champ duelist is TN Williams.   I'll call him on the phone and get him to post some

info for you.   Then one day........ you can kick his butt.     

 

..........Widder

 

[Lucky Lead Pepper]

Here's TW showing that pistol speed:

 

[Lucky Lead Pepper]

Here's another World Champ duelist, Randy Saint Eagle.  Randy shoots Ruger Bisleys with a short stroke action job:

 

[Lucky Lead Pepper]

I'm no world champion, but this was a decent run, minus the little fumble picking up the second pistol.  I shoot Ruger Bisleys in 45 Colt with Eagle gunfighter grips. I have received a lot excellent instruction from Randy Saint Eagle and Tennessee Williams on shooting duelist style.

 

[Imis Twohofon,SASS # 46646]

China Camp always said Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Practice smooth.

Also SBH hammers are a direct replacement. The Bisley hammers require a simple metal removal from the hammer.

 

Imis

Edited April 22 by Imis Twohofon,SASS # 46646

[Tennessee williams]

The body of your post is asking about shooting your guns faster, but the subject of it is shooting the category faster. They ain't really the same thing. I'll address both from MY saddle...

  If you want to shoot your guns faster(as in manipulating them as fast as possible without missing) then you need to find your speed limit. When you PRACTICE, shoot your guns as fast as you safely can without having more than 2 misses in a string. Then all you have to do is shoot them that fast without those 2 misses. Thats your speed for now. All the little bells and whistles that you can do to your guns WILL make a difference. Most of the differences will only be in your head. You'll think yourself into being faster and that's okay. Some of them make a physical difference that is not in your head, like being able to reach the hammers on your Rugers easily. 

  Now it's a whole other story if you're wanting your stage times to improve. The indisputable best way to get lower stage times is get faster at what you're doing when you're not pulling the trigger. There's no secret speed sauce. Cut down on the time it takes between trigger pulls. For instance when you practice it takes:

8 seconds to draw and fire all 10 rounds from the revolvers.

8 seconds to pick up and fire 10 rds from your rifle.

8 seconds to pick up and shoot 4 kd with the shotgun.

Then your par time for a stand and deliver stage is 24 seconds because you should be discarding and initiating 2 guns at the same time as a duelist. That will tell you where your transitions are. The time it takes for 10rds from both pistols from the holster plus 10 rounds from the rifle from staged position plus 4 knockdowns with shotgun from staged position. Your discards are built into the run. 

 

Clear as mud?

 

Edit: Fast is fast. Slow can kiss my....grits.

 

 

Edited April 22 by Tennessee williams

[Anvil Al #59168]

+1 for what Tennesse Williams said. 

 

It's all about transitions with double duelist. 

 

 

Edited April 23 by Anvil Al #59168

[doc roy l. pain]

It’s hard to recommend guns and grips and hammers not knowing what size hands you have. So info you receive here may or may not help. I do know a lot of top duelist in the game and most prefer lower hammers or Bisley style grips. Also, are you shooting strong side duelist or double duelist?  Best thing I can suggest starting out is to load up some snap caps and dry fire a lot to build up your thumb or thumbs. I think Widder would agree that most top shooters put in a lot of time dry firing when they started out. You’ll probably get to a point your feeling pretty fast at it. Then you add in more live fire to see how recoil affects your speed. Believe me, it will change your speed. It will also tell you what speed you can go and still hit your targets. 
As far as shooting smaller lighter guns and lesser calibers, there comes a point where things get too light. I played with a set of 32’s for about a year and a half. I could really snatch them out of a holster and dry fire them fast. But, when it came to live fire I found them to be too light for multiple shots on the same target. The timer proved this to me several times over. I even put bisley grips and hammers on them to add a little weight. The recoil on the smaller gun slowed down my splits on multiple shots so I abandoned that idea. 
Don’t be shy when attending a match to ask other shooters if you can handle their guns and see how they feel to you. Most shooters will oblige you to do that.

To be good at anything be committed to put in the practice time. It was never work to me because I enjoyed it so much. 
One additional thing I will tell you is that if you don’t already own a timer, invest in one. You want one that will allow you to set a delay start time and also a par time. It’s the only real measure you will have to know what works or doesn’t work for you. 
These suggestions are just a few of the basics. When you master that then you might want ask about the choreography and best way to run a stage. I know from reading some of the posts that TW writes that he really breaks down the movement needed to shoot a stage as I also do. 

[Anvil Al #59168]

Think lower hammers is a BIG help.

 

Many other duelist and I like the Ruger Bisley just because of that.

 

My wife just started shooting duelist. Ruger V's. Because the Bisleys just felt too big for her. 

First, we went with the Super Blackhawk hammers. But with her hands. She wanted even lower.

 

So, we ended up with Ruger V's with Bisley hammers. We even ended up with Bisley triggers in them also. 

 

Got to say. They are pretty sweet. 

 

Find the best Duelist in your area. I'm betting they would be more than happy to work with you. 

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

9 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I'm not a fan of short stroked Rugers, but then I'm not a duelist either.  Lowered hammers would probably help, or short stroking, or both.  I know several duelists who went with Single Sixes.  The smaller frame gets your thumb closer to the hammer even with stock hammers and no short stroke.

I’m old and arthritic and short stroked Bisleys helped me considerably. 
 

Randy

 

Sometimes it work out pretty well.

 

 

 

[Sedalia Dave]

Notice in the first video of TW shooting how smooth his transitions are. He already had is right hand on his rifle while still shooting the pistol with his left.  Doing this takes practice and concentration as missing a pistol shot more than cancels out the time saved.

 

More time can be saved with better transitions than can be saved pulling the trigger faster.

[Captain Bill Burt]

10 hours ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

I’m old and arthritic and short stroked Bisleys helped me considerably. 
 

Randy

 

Sometimes it work out pretty well.

 

 

 

That's a nice run!!

[Fallon Kid]

Interesting topic but I’m so bad even I don’t listen to anything I have to say

[Shooting Bull]

20 hours ago, OK Dirty Dan said:

I'd spend some time at home getting comfortable getting the first pistol back into leather (without looking it in) at the same time as you're pulling the second from leather and getting it on target. That will minimize your pistol-to-pistol transition time and also allow your dominant hand (I assume every double duelist generally shoots dominant hand first for transition reasons) to move onto the rifle/shotgun earlier therefore minimizing that transition time.

 

 

Generally speaking I'll agree but, you should be equally adept at shooting either pistol first.  The advantage Double Duelists have over any other category is the vast array of transition options available to us.  But you cut that number of options in half by only using your dominant hand first.  If you're going to shoot Double Duelist you should practice drawing and shooting with both your dominant and weak hand first.  

 

Let me give an example as to why.  Stage calls for pistols to be shot at position 1 then move to position 2 to shoot shotgun.  I shoot a SXS shotgun and load the shells with me left (weak) hand).  On this stage I'll shoot my left pistol first.  When I'm done with that I holster it then draw and fire my right pistol.  As I'm firing my right pistol I'm pulling two shotgun shells with my left hand.  When I'm done with my second pistol I holster it as I'm taking my first step toward position 2.  As I'm moving to position 2 I have the shotgun shells up at eye level with my left hand and my right hand is reaching for my shotgun.  (Reaching as you move helps you move faster. ) When I get to position 2 I grab and raise the shotgun to my shoulder as fast as possible where my shells are already waiting to be dropped into the chambers. 

[SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER]

Hammers are subjective to the individual shooter. I have a short stroked pair with SBH hammers, a regular pair with standard hammers, and a regular pair with the tall hammer all new model vaquero. On the clock the non short stroked tall hammers are the fastest for me.

   If I put the short wide hammers on regular stroke gun the crowd my thumb too much.

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

On 4/22/2024 at 6:08 PM, Imis Twohofon,SASS # 46646 said:

China Camp always said Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Practice smooth.

Also SBH hammers are a direct replacement. The Bisley hammers require a simple metal removal from the hammer.

 

Imis

I mostly agree except practice fast, you’ll never know your speed limit until you exceed it.

 

Randy

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I agree with you, Randy..... 100%.

 

If a person really wants to be fast, ya gotta pull out nearly all the restrictions to find out those 'impossible' limits.

 

Soon, the practice sessions will reveal areas of sloppiness that can be worked on.    AND, those fast practice sessions

will also reveal that your previous 'limitations' are changing because your speed has improved.

 

Assuming you don't have any restrictive health issues,  you gotta believe in yeowndangself and believe those

'unreachable' speeds are actually not impossible to reach.

 

Sooooooo, I would suggest you practice hard and practice fast.

At a match, its o.k. to throttle back a little.   But when its practice time again, as Randy stated, ya gotta practice

fast to know your speed limits..... and then exceed it.

 

You might be the next 'speedmeister'.

 

 

..........Widder 

 

 

 

Edited April 24 by Widder, SASS #59054

[Tennessee williams]

13 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

Let me give an example as to why.  Stage calls for pistols to be shot at position 1 then move to position 2 to shoot shotgun.  I shoot a SXS shotgun and load the shells with me left (weak) hand).  On this stage I'll shoot my left pistol first.  When I'm done with that I holster it then draw and fire my right pistol.  As I'm firing my right pistol I'm pulling two shotgun shells with my left hand.  When I'm done with my second pistol I holster it as I'm taking my first step toward position 2.  As I'm moving to position 2 I have the shotgun shells up at eye level with my left hand and my right hand is reaching for my shotgun.  (Reaching as you move helps you move faster. ) When I get to position 2 I grab and raise the shotgun to my shoulder as fast as possible where my shells are already waiting to be dropped into the chambers. 

So, this is just my opinion obviously and is worth only what you paid me. Let's break down the mechanics of why it doesn't work for ME. Some transitions look wonderful on paper but fail to show up on the timer. To ME, that transition depends on 2 factors, and a third factor comes into play on similar transitional movements. The first is the direction and how far it is between the pistol position and the shotgun position. The second is the difference in time between your strong to weak side pistol transition and your weak to strong side pistol transition. The third factor that comes into play on similar transitions is whether it takes you longer to shoulder your shotgun or grab 2 shells and get them into position(I'll explain that one in a minute). 

1st main factor- direction and distance. When I fire the last shot of my last revolver I want to MOVE! If I'm moving one or two steps, counting my reach I am picking up my rifle as my left pistol is finishing being holstered. This accomplishes a couple things that going weak side first does not. One is it gets my shotgun shouldered quicker because I'm not moving my right hand all the way from my holster to the rifle to pick it up and two is it puts my weak hand that I grab my shells with at my holster, which is within an 8" circle of my shells which in turn creates a straight line from holster to shells to shotgun.(I like my transitional hand movements to be within a 12" max circle at all times). If someone hasn't moved one step by the time they holster, they're  moving too slow or are holstering before they move. A by-product benefit of strong side P first on long movement (assuming right handed and moving to the right) is it greatly diminishes the chance of breaking the 170 either actual or perceived by the over-zealous spotter because you will be holstering your left pistol while moving to the right. Holstering your right pistol while moving to your right is chancy. 

2nd main factor-Difference in strong to weak P transition vs weak to strong side P transition. While making less of a difference, it does still come into the equation. My right hand to left hand transition on a good day is half a second. My left to right transition is more like a second and I run the risk of pulling too quick. That can be remedied by more practice. 

3rd main factor for similar transitions. Grab shells vs shoulder shotgun. So the accepted fact for the duelist category is we should be more able to do 2 things at once. I take that a step further and decide which 2 things I should be doing simultaneously. Case in point, Rifle to Shotgun transition on a stand and deliver stage. Should the duelist lay the rifle down with the left hand or the right hand? That my friend depends on the duelist. Specifically whether it takes them longer to draw 2 shells or shoulder the shotgun. Whichever takes the longest time should be done simultaneously while the rifle is being discarded. If it takes them longer to get a good grab on their two shells with the left hand, the rifle should be discarded with the right hand(again discarded within that 12" circle of hand movement to pick up the shotgun). If it takes them longer to pick up the shotgun, they should discard the rifle left handed(again 12" circle of the shells to grab although it's close on this one) while they're picking the shotgun up. Make sense? You have 3 things to do. The 2 that overlap needs to include the one item that takes the longest time.

I'm by no means saying duelists shouldn't be able to draw the weak side first, I'm just saying your scenario doesn't work for ME. It definitely does for others.

  Like Randy and Widder said. Go fast! 

  I sure didn't mean to type this much but I can talk transitions all day, so sorry about that. 

 

Edited April 24 by Tennessee williams
Changed "does" to "doesn't"

[Stagecoach south]

6 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

So, this is just my opinion obviously and is worth only what you paid me. Let's break down the mechanics of why it doesn't work for ME. Some transitions look wonderful on paper but fail to show up on the timer. To ME, that transition depends on 2 factors, and a third factor comes into play on similar transitional movements. The first is the direction and how far it is between the pistol position and the shotgun position. The second is the difference in time between your strong to weak side pistol transition and your weak to strong side pistol transition. The third factor that comes into play on similar transitions is whether it takes you longer to shoulder your shotgun or grab 2 shells and get them into position(I'll explain that one in a minute). 

1st main factor- direction and distance. When I fire the last shot of my last revolver I want to MOVE! If I'm moving one or two steps, counting my reach I am picking up my rifle as my left pistol is finishing being holstered. This accomplishes a couple things that going weak side first does not. One is it gets my shotgun shouldered quicker because I'm not moving my right hand all the way from my holster to the rifle to pick it up and two is it puts my weak hand that I grab my shells with at my holster, which is within an 8" circle of my shells which in turn creates a straight line from holster to shells to shotgun.(I like my transitional hand movements to be within a 12" max circle at all times). If someone hasn't moved one step by the time they holster, they're  moving too slow or are holstering before they move. A by-product benefit of strong side P first on long movement (assuming right handed and moving to the right) is it greatly diminishes the chance of breaking the 170 either actual or perceived by the over-zealous spotter because you will be holstering your left pistol while moving to the right. Holstering your right pistol while moving to your right is chancy. 

2nd main factor-Difference in strong to weak P transition vs weak to strong side P transition. While making less of a difference, it does still come into the equation. My right hand to left hand transition on a good day is half a second. My left to right transition is more like a second and I run the risk of pulling too quick. That can be remedied by more practice. 

3rd main factor for similar transitions. Grab shells vs shoulder shotgun. So the accepted fact for the duelist category is we should be more able to do 2 things at once. I take that a step further and decide which 2 things I should be doing simultaneously. Case in point, Rifle to Shotgun transition on a stand and deliver stage. Should the duelist lay the rifle down with the left hand or the right hand? That my friend depends on the duelist. Specifically whether it takes them longer to draw 2 shells or shoulder the shotgun. Whichever takes the longest time should be done simultaneously while the rifle is being discarded. If it takes them longer to get a good grab on their two shells with the left hand, the rifle should be discarded with the right hand(again discarded within that 12" circle of hand movement to pick up the shotgun). If it takes them longer to pick up the shotgun, they should discard the rifle left handed(again 12" circle of the shells to grab although it's close on this one) while they're picking the shotgun up. Make sense? You have 3 things to do. The 2 that overlap needs to include the one item that takes the longest time.

I'm by no means saying duelists shouldn't be able to draw the weak side first, I'm just saying your scenario doesn't work for ME. It definitely does for others.

  Like Randy and Widder said. Go fast! 

  I sure didn't mean to type this much but I can talk transitions all day, so sorry about that. 

 

Talk about transition and all this stuff all day I’m trying to absorb all this like a sponge. . And then I’m gonna hopefully sit down this weekend and try a little bit of everything and see what works best for me and practice practice practice

[Sedalia Dave]

1 hour ago, Stagecoach south said:

Talk about transition and all this stuff all day I’m trying to absorb all this like a sponge. . And then I’m gonna hopefully sit down this weekend and try a little bit of everything and see what works best for me and practice practice practice

 

Get yourself a video camera and film yourself as much as possible. Especially dry fire practice.  This will let you see areas that need improvement and Identify anything that could lead to bad habits. 

[Lucky Lead Pepper]

I am by no means a shining example of what to do.  I have watched TW shoot a lot and have tried to pickup some of his movements.  I did it pretty well (for me) in this video.  Just like TW was describing above, my thought process was shoot strong pistol first, then pick up the shotgun. When I holster the left pistol, I'm within reach of shotgun shells.  It all came together pretty well.  I have a lot of TW videos on my channel where you can see his transitions.  He has a channel too with more of his videos. By the way, when I first started picking up long guns with my right hand while shooting with my left, I missed often. I kept doing it anyway and am improving the accuracy.

 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Dang LLP,   you is a 'Bad Man'..... 

 

You oughta be teaching ole TW a few tricks.

 

..........Widder

 

[Stagecoach south]

4 hours ago, Lucky Lead Pepper said:

I am by no means a shining example of what to do.  I have watched TW shoot a lot and have tried to pickup some of his movements.  I did it pretty well (for me) in this video.  Just like TW was describing above, my thought process was shoot strong pistol first, then pick up the shotgun. When I holster the left pistol, I'm within reach of shotgun shells.  It all came together pretty well.  I have a lot of TW videos on my channel where you can see his transitions.  He has a channel too with more of his videos. By the way, when I first started picking up long guns with my right hand while shooting with my left, I missed often. I kept doing it anyway and am improving the accuracy.

 

Yeah, I’ve been watching you on YouTube for a few months I’ve subscribed to your channel..

[Shooting Bull]

21 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

So, this is just my opinion………….

 

Widder’s right. You talk a lot. 

[Tennessee williams]

1 hour ago, Shooting Bull said:

Widder’s right. You talk a lot. 

As usual, I agree with half of what you said.

Widder is not right!

[Widder, SASS #59054]

1 hour ago, Shooting Bull said:

Widder’s right. You talk a lot. 

 

42 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

As usual, I agree with half of what you said.

Widder is not right!

 

You fellers 'quack' me up.   I'm glad you're both into 'Chickens' and not ducks.

 

TW is correct in on thing he's told me......... Shooting Bull ain't good enough to shoot the TN State.  

 

..........Widder

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

10 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

 

You fellers 'quack' me up.   I'm glad you're both into 'Chickens' and not ducks.

 

TW is correct in on thing he's told me......... Shooting Bull ain't good enough to shoot the TN State.  

 

..........Widder

 

It is a highly competitive match for sure, but well worth the trip if you have the testicular fortitude.