What would cause a NMV's firing pin to hit like this?

[Buckshot Bear]

G'day pards,

Big three day annual shoot, home now late Sunday night and very tired but wanted to ask this question as my wife had some trouble with one of her NMV's with it not firing and going around and around and it still wouldn't fire till RO called broken gun.

My wife was so disappointed, not sure which of her two pistols were doing it, but it happened to her 4x out of the 10 scenarios.

But the thing is our daughter in law shared the pistols for the 10 scenarios over the three days and didn't have a single issue.

 

Why didn't the firing pin hit dead centre on this cartridge (that didn't fire)? These are only 2 year old NMV's that haven't had any problems before.

 

Why did this happen to my wife 1 out of the 5 cartridges in 4 scenarios and not my daughter in law and what's the cause? 

 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Are your Ruger's set up for the BOLT to lock in the cylinder from "ENERTIA"?

 

In other words, does the PAWL (hand) push the cylinder completely into proper lock up or has the revolver(s) been

set up for the cylinder to spin from inertia the las few .000's in rotation for the bolt to securely fall into its cylinder notch?

 

If the bolt isn't locking the cylinder each time, the cartridge isn't completely centered to the firing pin, and therefore,

the firing pin will hit off center of the primer.

 

When another person has 100% reliability with the same revolvers(s), they are probably cocking the hammer with more forceful

energy.....which will ensure the cylinder rotates that little extra movement for the bolt to lock up correctly.

 

..........Widder

 

Edited April 14 by Widder, SASS #59054

[Prof. Fuller Bullspit]

Widder has made a good suggestion! If that isn’t it….

 

Assuming two things in the lack of information presented so far:

1. This has never been a problem with this gun before.

2. You examined the firing pin and confirmed that the bushing is in place and the pin protrudes out as it should.

 

Confirm that the correct cylinder  and the correct base pin is installed all the way in. 
 

Also assuming this gun is actually a .38/.357.

Edited April 14 by Prof. Fuller Bullspit

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Timing issue.

The cyl stop is not in the cyl notch when fired.

45 minutes ago, Prof. Fuller Bullspit said:

Widder has made a good suggestion! If that isn’t it….

 

Assuming two things in the lack of information presented so far:

1. This has never been a problem with this gun before.

2. You examined the firing pin and confirmed that the bushing is in place and the pin protrudes out as it should.

 

Confirm that the correct cylinder  and the correct base pin is installed all the way in. 
 

Also assuming this gun is actually a .38/.357.

Good seeing you posting again. 

[Dusty Devil Dale]

Widder is right about the cocking force and what I call briskness.  If only light force is applied in cocking the hammer, then the second (lower) tooth on the pawl/hand may be filed too low to push the cylinder all the way to the locking notches.  The positioning-cocking timing is fairly critical.  

 

A few questions:

 

1>  Which side of the primer is being struck?  Is the cylinder stopping too soon or too late?

(after the cylinder rotation stops upon cocking, can you manually rotate it a little further, or does it skip to the next round?)

 

2> Is the bolt locking tab riding too high so that it is heavily burnishing or scoring the outside of the cylinder? And is the scoring roughness enough to rub and  possibly impede smooth rotation?

 

3>  When you remove the cylinder and insert the base pin into its center bore (out of the gun), is it a snug fit or can you visibly wiggle it side-to- side? 

4>  Is the pawl/hand in original condition or has it been modified?

5>  Is the gun short stroked?  If so, realize cocking the hammer has to do all the same jobs as on the stock gun, but in a shorter path, so physics tells us it will require added energy to cock the gun, for any given hammer spring tension.

6>  Does your wife slip hammer with trigger held back?  Does the gun malfunction if individually cocked and fired? (Suspect hammer being released too soon.)

 

The gun should not come to battery, in full cock, before the cylinder is fully rotated into position and locked.  If it does, and it is fired with the chamber & barrel misaligned, gun or shooter damage could result.  You don't want the gun to cock prior to the chamber being aligned.  

 

With all of those ruled out, the fact that the gun works properly for a different shooter suggests your wife is short- cocking the gun.  Try it yourself, cocking both rapidly and slowly, while watching what happens. 

Hope this helps. 

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

Bear,

 

I'm not a Ruger guy, but it looks like the bolt is coming up before cylinder rotates into the locking notch.  I had a Colt that had been worked on and if the pistol went to half cock and the cylinder spun slowly, the cylinder would, on occasion, under rotate slightly and the bolt would come up early.   Has this happened before the latest match?  Try to isolate the pistol that is having the problem, then go through the points Dale wrote. 

 

PS.  Clean the revolver so that you may see if something is out of whack internally.

Edited April 14 by Tex Jones, SASS 2263

[Buckshot Bear]

Thanks pards appreciate the replies.... Just having some morning coffee and will start working through your suggestions. 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Has the gun been short stroked?

 

 Real easy test.  Cock the gun very SLOWLY.  When the hammer hits full cock stop pulling and reach up and twist the cylinder clockwise.  If it moves and the cylinder stop drops into place tell your wife to pull the hammer harder.

 

P.S. the last two New Vaqueros I purchased a couple of months ago neither would pass the above test.

Edited April 15 by Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933

[Buckshot Bear]

I've got me some problems  

 

Guns are stainless .38/.357s and are all original except for lighter hammer and trigger springs put in two years ago when both pistols were bought new. No other modifications have been made (except for the addition of pearl grips).

 

As soon as I took the pistols out of their bags this morning and picked one up I could recreate the problem by cocking the hammer quickly. I thought "That was lucky I picked the problem gun up first" ...... until I picked up #2 and could recreate exactly the same problem  

 

The cylinders are rotating and stopping about 11.30 from 12 o'clock roughly around the 5th cocking (but not always the 5th). I can then manually rotate the cylinder clockwise that small amount and here everything click into place.

 

Operating both pistols slowly and more methodically it doesn't happen, but as soon as there's speed and force pulling the hammer back it happens. So my daughter in law must have been going like this. Now my wife isn't like the Uberti gorilla that puts in the screws at the Uberti factory by any means!

 

Feel pretty flat, not sure why this has happened all of a sudden? My wife is shooting them (she's competitive and scores well) like she always has (no slip hammering).

 

Where do I go from here pards? Is this something that is possible for me to fix? We don't have the luxury of easily accessible gunsmiths here that are experts on these pistols. 

 

Thanks one and all for the help.......any advice on what to do now?

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

Sounds like the cocking force is the issue. You could have the pawl tuned to get all of the chambers to cock the same way, even with light force but a good firm hammer pull should do it. 

[Buckshot Bear]

Here's a short video that hope goes to show exactly what's happening -

 

 

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

I would say that is a pawl/cylinder ratchet issue. When I recently installed a free-spin pawl, I had to "tune" the pawl lower step by filing it down gradually until all chambers cocked satisfactorily by gently pulling the hammer back to full cock. If set up right, there should be no need to force it into battery. Randall at Power Custom (https://powercustom.com/store/index.php?main_page=contact_us&zenid=281kptogoup0tnatec75hov9b1) is a great resource and can get you on the right track, whether an adjustment needs to be made or parts replaced. If you weren't in Aussie land, I'd tell you to call him, but his contact in the attached should work too. Great folks!

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

5 hours ago, Buckshot Bear said:

I've got me some problems  

 

Guns are stainless .38/.357s and are all original except for lighter hammer and trigger springs put in two years ago when both pistols were bought new. No other modifications have been made (except for the addition of pearl grips).

 

As soon as I took the pistols out of their bags this morning and picked one up I could recreate the problem by cocking the hammer quickly. I thought "That was lucky I picked the problem gun up first" ...... until I picked up #2 and could recreate exactly the same problem  

 

The cylinders are rotating and stopping about 11.30 from 12 o'clock roughly around the 5th cocking (but not always the 5th). I can then manually rotate the cylinder clockwise that small amount and here everything click into place.

 

Operating both pistols slowly and more methodically it doesn't happen, but as soon as there's speed and force pulling the hammer back it happens. So my daughter in law must have been going like this. Now my wife isn't like the Uberti gorilla that puts in the screws at the Uberti factory by any means!

 

Feel pretty flat, not sure why this has happened all of a sudden? My wife is shooting them (she's competitive and scores well) like she always has (no slip hammering).

 

Where do I go from here pards? Is this something that is possible for me to fix? We don't have the luxury of easily accessible gunsmiths here that are experts on these pistols. 

 

Thanks one and all for the help.......any advice on what to do now?

Could the cylinders been switched? 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

2 hours ago, Buckshot Bear said:

Here's a short video that hope goes to show exactly what's happening -

 

 

That's 'over-rotation'.

Is it the same chamber each time?

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I ain't a Ruger pistol smith, BUT...... I would check to make sure the Hammer 'PLUNGER' and the 'BOLT'

are making correct contact.   The plunger might have a chip on the edge or worn.

 

Not likely, but check out the plunger spring also to make sure it still has its integrity.

 

Just a thought.

 

Best regards

 

..........Widder

 

Edited April 15 by Widder, SASS #59054

[SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER]

Less likely to happen, but I had one come in the shop that worked fine when the shooter shot one handed, when he went to 2 handed it would skip. Went thru the usual stuff, no fix. Noticed the drag line was not centered and measured the notch location and they were about .100 too far forward. Cocked slowly the bolt would catch the notch, any speed and it would let the cylinder fly by. Sent to Ruger, they confirmed and replaced cylinder.

Edited April 15 by SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

8 hours ago, Buckshot Bear said:

The cylinders are rotating and stopping about 11.30 from 12 o'clock roughly around the 5th cocking (but not always the 5th). I can then manually rotate the cylinder clockwise that small amount and here everything click into place.

 

That is not a small amount.  That is a lot.  It is over rotating.  On Colt actions that usually means either the hand/pawl spring is weak or broken or the bolt spring is weak or broken.  Both of these are coils on a Ruger and they seldom fail.  Problems with those spring is usually caused by the user damaging them by, for example, pinching the pawl spring between the frame and grip frame.  Interesting that this started recently and on both revolvers.  Were they disassembled and cleaned recently?  Have they ever been in an ultrasonic cleaner?  Are you 100% sure the cylinders have not been swapped?  The last three or four digits of the serial number are on the front of the cylinder.  They are often very lightly scratched on and covered with carbon and very hard to see.

Edited April 15 by Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933

[Tom Bullweed]

possible over-rotation while sliphammering?

[Blackwater 53393]

13 hours ago, Tom Bullweed said:

possible over-rotation while sliphammering?

OP said the shooter doesn’t slip hammer!!

[Assassin]

I've seen this happen before. Always skips the same chamber. I would not shoot that pistol until it's repaired. If it fires just off center it could cause excessive pressure if the cylinder isn't perfectly in line with the forcing cone. 

[BLACKFOOT SASS #11947]

I had one that was doing that on  just one chamber.  A trip back to Ruger and it was good to go.  They replaced the  cylinder and did a little fitting here and there.  

Blackfoot

[Pb Mark]

Had a stock nm Vaquero like that once...

 

Try this maybe - Slowly apply pressure to the cylinder with the support hand while slowly cocking the hammer with your primary hand.  Cock it slowly while the cylinder is prevented from free spinning with the light pressure applied to the cylinder.  After the hammer cocks, where is the cylinder?  Still needs to spin to reach the lock-in position?  (Under-timed).  Locks perfectly (timed perfectly).  Already past the locking position or cylinder locks before hammer does (Overtimed).

 

Check this for each position on the cylinder.  Call Ruger with your results.  Probably going back to Ruger if the gun has no basic assembly issues from being taken apart.  Just a thought.  

Edited April 19 by Pb Mark
added to over-timed sentence.

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

Bear,

 

You may already know this but the Australian firm that services Rugers is NIOA, as listed on Ruger's website.  The same outfit that bought out Barrett.

 

Phone: 7-3621-9999

e mail:  sales@nioa.com.au

 

It's best to contact them as the problem seems to be over rotation of the cylinder, for what ever reason, but the "fix" may require some 'smithing.

[Howdy Pardner]

If she's shooting two handed, be sure she's

 not letting her off hand or thumb put some drag on the cylinder. I've  seen this happen recently but it wasn't a Ruger.