1873 Carrier block issues

[Dred Bob]

I bought a well used 1873 Uberti rifle at a local match last fall from a shooter that was selling off a collection of guns from another shooter that had passed.  The rifle was identified as a Long Hunter tuned rifle and had a very nice action.  It was one of the last matches of the year and I didn't get a chance to use it in any local matches.  I just joined SASS late last year and have only shot a couple of matches total though I ended up going to EoT 2024 and took this rifle to shoot but it kept jamming while ejecting rounds so I had to switch and use the rifle of a friend that was shooting in my EoT posse.  The Carrier Block was *well* worn and was missing some material on top of the block where teh rim rides which was causing a cartridge to jam when it was supposed to extract.   I ordered a replacement "Pioneer" Carrier block from Jim at Long Hunter which looks exactly identical to the one in the rifle.  I replaced the block but found that my bolt was dragging and jamming in the new block when cycling the action.  I pulled the block and compared the two with calipers and found that the new block was noticeably different in many areas.  Basically the walls were thicker, less material had been milled out.  I was able to see where the bolt was dragging and used a file to remove a few .001" and it cycles well now.   I still have an issue with trying to load cartridges, they stick hard when trying to push them in through the gate so I probably have to file some more out somewhere.

 

Newb questions.  Is it typical to have to file a new carrier block like this to fit and cycle?   Does anybody know who actually makes the Pioneer blocks?  I'd like to reach out to them directly but I didn't save the packaging.   Any other comments or advice would be welcome as well.

[Hells Comin]

I learned right away if u don't know what you are doing DON'T do it. I'd send it to Jim and let him do his magic. Jmho

   Hells Comin 

Edited April 12 by Hells Comin

[Shawnee Hills]

Sounds like the timing may be off.  Definitely give Joe at PGW a call.  If you're handy with tools, and understand how it's supposed to work, you likely can fix it yourself.  If not, however, it's probably best to heed HC's advice and send it to Jim.

 

Shouldn't need to chew on the carrier to get it to cycle.  Case in point; installed a PGW super short kit last week and didn't have to touch the carrier beyond placing it in the rifle.

[Red Rider Rudy]

My 73 was doing that. Turned out it was a weak lever spring, not hold holding the down.

[Assassin]

I have the same problem with one of my four 73's. The bolt was worn and had too much head space.  I've lost confidence in my 73's, they are old and worn. Bought a new one that was race ready, it's a pos after a year.  

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Extractor probably  is weak and needs to be replaced.  And the lever and lifter springs, if still the factory originals, ought to be replaced.  Tighten the lifter spring side until the carrier is held even with bottom of frame.  Problems with loading the magazine are "vertical alignment of carrier" problems.

 

Some new carriers need the rear of the bolt travel channel filed a little to make a conical entry (centering relief) to better let the bolt find it's way forward.

 

good luck, GJ

[Dred Bob]

my inclination was to just try to drop in the new carrier because I could tell the old one was really worn and it was definitely jamming when ejecting because of the additional wear on the carrier.  When I did the swap it wasn't a timing issue, or at least not *just* a timing issue because the face of the bolt actually did not fit in the carrier without rubbing.  I pulled out the calipers and the new carrier definitely had a measurable smaller void for the bolt to travel.  No timing fix was going to make that bolt fit in the carrier as it was.  In for a dime....   I pulled out some files and that did the trick.  It cycles smooth and cartridges seem to run fine although I haven't actually shot it in a match yet.  First local match is tomorrow so I'll see if it'll run.   I just need to figure out the loading issue.  I don't want to force the cartridges.  It could definitely be a result of the narrower carrier channel.  Either I file some more or maybe try some shorter .38 test rounds. 

 

and if that doesn't work I'll just send it to Jim for a rebuild. 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

10 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

...Some new carriers need the rear of the bolt travel channel filed a little to make a conical entry (centering relief) to better let the bolt find it's way forward.

 

good luck, GJ

To continue this thought - I don't know what type of short stroke your rifle has - I heard Jim uses Pioneer stuff but I don't know if he always did - the notes that came with my Cowboys and Indians 3rd gen short stroke kit indicated where to mill out the carrier on the inside front.  It also said that aluminum carriers from other manufacturers are not milled out as necessary in this area and won't work as-is with the C&I kit.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

9 hours ago, Dred Bob said:

I just need to figure out the loading issue.  I don't want to force the cartridges.  It could definitely be a result of the narrower carrier channel.  Either I file some more or maybe try some shorter .38 test rounds. 

 

The loading of cartridges shoves rounds through through the loading gate, into the channel of the carrier, then into the mag tube.  And when levering the action, of course, the round to be fed to the chamber has to pop rearward into the channel  then be pushed forward into the chamber by the bolt after the carrier rises.  So, you definitely have to have sufficient clearance in the channel for a round to slide without binding or being tight.  Can you slide rounds easily fore and back with the carrier out of the gun, held in your hands? If not, more filing will be needed to allow the rounds to travel freely.

 

How about explaining if EVERY cartridge you load is sticking, or just the first or just the last.   Very hard to load last cartridge - could be an over-length magazine tube spring (common from factory).  If it's every cartridge - may be a narrow spot in the carrier or the frame.  But since this problem sounds like it has started only with the new carrier, check that closely.   Take a sharpie pen and color the inside of the block.  Load some cartridges, unload them, then take block out and examine for marks in the fresh coating.  

 

Look for rub marks on the inside of the carrier channel and on the receiver (frame) where the mag tube meets the receiver.  Look for a magazine follower that sticks either in the frame or the mag tube.  

 

Also check that the loading gate can be pushed open easily as you shove cartridges in.   Uberti makes the spring arm of the loading gate very strong.   A bent loading gate or too much arch on the spring arm can catch on the lifter arm or even toggle links.

 

Having sticky LOADING of the magazine is an uncommon problem with a 73.

 

And short rounds will not fix a hard magazine loading issue.  And will, if short enough, cause levering rounds into the chamber to jam up with one and part of another round in the carrier.

 

All of this tells me the gun needs to go back to LongHunter for some remedial work.  Having to do a lot of adjustment to the carrier's channel is not what is usually needed with a carrier replacement.

 

good luck, GJ

Edited April 13 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

[Sarge]

I prefer the stock Uberti brass carrier blocks.  Only time I've had a problem with a carrier is after an out of battery.  If the original carrier block was brass and has side areas machined out, it was done to reduce weight and friction. 

 

You don't mention caliber.  But when I hear a about a problem jamming, first thing that comes to mind if it is a .38/.357 is cartridge overall length. Another possibility is a damaged or worn lifter.  

 

I would start by giving Jim a call.  I've found him to be extremely helpful and customer service friendly.  If he can talk you through a repair he will.  

Edited April 14 by Sarge

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

He did mention caliber - .38 special ammo.  In 7th post.  

 

Cartridge length not making for difficulty loading rounds into the gun.   Either loading gate, carrier constriction or something hanging up in mag tube. 

 

good luck, GJ

[Sarge]

11 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

He did mention caliber - .38 special ammo.  In 7th post.  

 

Cartridge length not making for difficulty loading rounds into the gun.   Either loading gate, carrier constriction or something hanging up in mag tube. 

 

good luck, GJ

Sorry, missed that.  

[Dusty Devil Dale]

 Regarding the failure to eject problem, take a good look at the lower bolt tab.  Its jobs are: 

1. help support the bottom of a live round during transfer from the carrier to the chamber, and

2. to support the bottom of expended cases so that they cannot fall downward away from the (top) ejector hook.  

 

Often the lower tab gets broken or broomed to a steep downward taper that allows the case to slip off too easily.  (a very slight down-burnishing of the tip is normal. The bolt should solidly grip a spent or live round between the tab and hook. )

The opposite can also occur, wherein the tab is too long for the ammunition being used, so it catches the rear of cases as they rise into clambering position in the carrier, causing a jamb.  The solution to that jamb is shorter ammo COAL, by just a hundredth or two. 

 

1873 bolts now come in different configurations. Older ones have solid tabs that can only be repaired by rebuilding with a TIG welder.  Newer ones have lower tabs that are replaceable by driving out a 1/16" pin in the side of the bolt.  My experience has been that the replacements are usually a drop-in part, requiring little fitting.  But that is not usually the case for the top ejector hook.  The tapering tail of the ejector, rearward of the installation pin, often needs to be fitted to adjust the up-down position of the hook.  

 

Before I would start replacing or changing parts, I would remove the lower tab (if it is removable) and the top ejector hook and thoroughly scrape/clean out the grooves they rest in.  Built up crud under the shank of the hook causes the kind of weak ejection that you are describing.  

As a rule of thumb, always thoroughly clean any gun before endeavoring to change or repair  anything.  

Edited April 14 by Dusty Devil Dale

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

No ejector on the toggle rifles (other than the top surface of the carrier).  That top hook is the extractor. 

 

OP - you need to CLEARLY explain the remaining difficulty.  You keep saying this is a "loading" problem, which to me means you can't easily load rounds through the loading gate into the mag tube. 

 

Then some folks are treating this like a levering/chambering problem.  The round on the carrier not feeding well into the chamber and letting the lever close completely.

 

Then OTHER folks are discussing an extraction and ejection problem.  Getting the fired brass out of the chamber and ejected cleanly.

 

Tell us specifically which of these you are bothered by.  Before this post turns into 14 pages of guesses, and perhaps none help you solve the problem.

 

good luck, GJ

Edited April 14 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

[Scarlett]

On 4/13/2024 at 8:54 PM, Sarge said:

would start by giving Jim a call.  I've found him to be extremely helpful and customer service friendly.  If he can talk you through a repair he will.  

I’m with Sarge! I disassemble/maintain my own equipment - guns and presses etc. I know my limitations - they are few but I know them. Wink wink

 

Longhunter is a SUPER guy! Jim@longhunt.com

 

Hugs!

Scarlett

[Dred Bob]

I'll try to catchup with recent posts.   I reached out to Jim at Long Hunter first when I identified the problem and he replied and has been incredibly helpful although I didn't want to drag him too deep unless I send it to him to completely rework (which I still might).  I was *told* the rifle was Long Hunter tuned when I bought it but there's no way for me to know if that was true or not or to what extent he did the work and I think it is an older rifle with a lot of miles on it.  It is .38/.357.  The top of the block was very very worn where the cartridge rim scrapes along the top/rear edge of the carrier during ejection.  When I eject a cartridge, about 1-2 times per magazine full the lever would jam at the bottom with a cartridge stuck at a 45d angle trapped between the bolt and carrier block.  A quick jiggle and it would release but of course when shooting a stage it completely wrecks your rhythm and time when it jams a couple of times during the stage even though you can clear it.

 

A friend of mine just purchased a new rifle from Long Hunter with the FULL action work.  He had all the original parts removed from his rifle so I did attempt to go back to an original block but that wouldn't cycle at all.  I have no idea why but it was a total no-go.  Jim resells an identical looking "Pioneer" block so I ordered one because to all appearances my problem was only because of the wear on the top of the carrier.   I got the new carrier block in and it looked identical but when I replaced it the bolt was dragging and sticking.  My calipers showed that the carrier walls were several .001's thicker than the one I pulled so I just filed it out until the bolt stopped dragging.  That allowed the rifle to cycle smoothly.   I did take the rifle to a match last weekend and it did not jam and no issues with feeding it during cycling. 

 

Back to the remaining problem with loading.  Cartridges loaded pretty smooth/easily with the original block but with the new block they have to be pushed hard to get them to feed into the tube.  My guess was that the thicker carrier walls wasn't allowing the cartridge to feed "around the corner"  but Jim followed up and indicated that the gate may be rubbing on the block and not opening all the way and that sometimes you need to file some material off the bottom of the gate.   I'm going to take a look and see if it's the gate or if I need to remove a little more material off of the inside of the block where the nose of the cartridge might be rubbing.  Maybe a sharpie or some paint on a bullet tip will show were to file.    

 

I'm very close to having this rifle back in the groove.   I did get a reply from "Willshootem" at Pioneer Gun Works and again "Very Helpful".  He did indicate that his supplier is very good with quality but they have had a few occasions where product dimensions were off and did require some filing.   I don't know which carrier is correct but there is a definite measurable difference between my old and the new so having to take a file to the new one seems more reasonable now.  I feel a little better that I'm not creating more trouble for myself or doing something that could ultimately make the gun a safety concern.

 

I'm going to go back through the thread and see if there was anything I missed but I really appreciate all the replies and help.  I don't want to be a gunsmith but I do like knowing how they work and there's a certain amount of DiY that I think you need to be able to do with this hobby.  There's also a line somewhere that I don't want to cross.  I'm amazed and appreciative by how helpful everybody has been with SASS, from the local guys at the matches to the guys here online and the vendors like Jim and 'Will...'.   The amount of support adds to the fun and participation.  It's not just showing up on Saturday and pulling a trigger.  

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

If your loading cartridges problem will NOT get any easier when you press a blunt screwdriver tip on the front end of the loading gate inwards all the way to the left side of the frame walls, then most likely the loading gate tab (the part that is bent at a 90 degrees angle into the action) could be a little "fat",  too long a tip.   Try painting the very edge (tip) of the loading gate TAB with a sharpie that has a different color - like silver.  If you rub that silver off when trying to push rounds, then the tab has too much metal and needs a little filing.  Inside the action, the loading gate can collide with either the lifter arm or the inside of the frame.

 

If pressing the loading gate fully DOES allow rounds to load nicely, then you may need to thin the arm of the gate so it does not have so much spring tension.

Don't take much off at time.  And it's safer (less chance of breakage) if you thin the width of the arm with a taper pattern, rather than thinning the thickness of the arm.   Thinning the thickness makes a leaf spring weaker VERY quickly.  Leave no file marks to act as stress risers (where a break can occur).

 

Of course, hard LOADING of the mag tube is something that you can live with because you rarely load the mag tube "on the clock" while shooting.

 

Glad to see you seem to have the new lifter working, though!  GJ

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

4 hours ago, Dred Bob said:

... The top of the block was very very worn where the cartridge rim scrapes along the top/rear edge of the carrier during ejection.  ...

Hi Dred,

You haven't showed us any pictures, and while your description of what is happening is understandable, and I know the top of the carrier can get worn, I just wonder a bit about this possibility:  I've always done my own action jobs but my last '73 was extra rough so I gave it to Brushy Creek Bill for an action job.  When he lightened the brass carrier, he added a little beveling to the inside corners at the top rear of the flat carrier top.  This is to aid in single-loading over-the-top.  I'm curious of any of what you called "worn" was perhaps a similar modification to your lifter?  Either a mod that is machined into it new or one that someone did later.  

 

 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Uberti rifles and many of their parts have varied through the years.  For example an older bolt is in the top photo and a newer one in the bottom photo.  The rib on the bottom of the bolt that rides in the groove on the bottom of the carrier is different.  The newer bolts are wider as shown in the photos.  A new bolt will not fit in an old carrier without running a mill down the slot in the bottom of the carrier to widen it.  This could definitely give the kind of drag you are talking about.  If you are not familiar with Uberti 73 rifles your best bet is to take it to someone that is.

 

 

 

 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Using Abilene's photo the "wear" the red arrow is pointing to is not really wear.  As he noted it is there to aid in over the top single loading.  Ejection and jams during ejection take place at the tiny gap the green arrow is pointing to.  If the gap is too big or the back surface rounded or damaged you can get a failure to eject and/or jam.

 

 

 

[Lead Monger]

I had a 66 Trapper in 38 special that was very difficult to load. Turned out the loading gate was making contact with the edge of the link when attempting to insert a cartridge. Filing the edge off the length of the link allowed the gate to open enough to load cartridges without binding.

[Long Hunter SASS #20389L]

Dred,

This is the area I emailed you about on the gate. Take about .02 from the bottom of the gate in between the arrows. Think this will solve your loading problem. Since the rifle is 15+ years old, it's possible it could be something else but this is the best place to start and it won't hurt a thing.

[Long Hunter SASS #20389L]

BTW: Larson Pettifogger and Garrison Joe are posters you should always pay attention to. These guys know what they're talking about and are always willing to help. I've learned a thing or two or..... from them over the years. 

[Sedalia Dave]

ON my 66, I encountered a problem loading after reinforcing the loading gate tab. Removed a small amount of the JB weld where it was hitting and it now works flawlessly.

 

 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

1 hour ago, Long Hunter SASS #20389L said:

...Take about .02 from the bottom of the gate in between the arrows. Think this will solve your loading problem....

 

Jim, thank you for giving me the impetus to finally look into a similar problem that began when I installed a Shotgun Boogie " '66-style " gate in my '73.  I put up with it because it was only the last round that was a pain (and I am lazy).  It looked like this was going to be the same thing, with the bottom of the gate hitting the spring or lifter arm.  Turns out the outer edge of the stop tab was hitting a humongous machining burr in the frame opening to the left.  All I have at this location is a fine-toothed file so it took a while and it didn't take much off that burr, but enough.  Did a little cleaning while I was in there, since the last time it was apart was when I put the loading gate in.  It was surprising clean though, but then I'm using one of your V-V loads. 

[Dred Bob]

13 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Using Abilene's photo the "wear" the red arrow is pointing to is not really wear.  As he noted it is there to aid in over the top single loading.  Ejection and jams during ejection take place at the tiny gap the green arrow is pointing to.  If the gap is too big or the back surface rounded or damaged you can get a failure to eject and/or jam.

 

 

 

 

I can't find the old Carrier at the moment, suffering from CRS (Can't Remember S***).  The worn carrier was missing material in the center beveled area between the red and green arrows.  The cartridge was dropping lower into that beveled area and the rim catching and jamming at the most rearward point of travel.  it was stopping the bolt from completing the cycle rearward and sticking with the cartridge wedged up at a 45d angle when running the lever quickly.  The new carrier seems to have fixed that issue since it has more material in the bevelled area.  I haven't shot it much since the *Fix* but it was happening consistently 1-2 times every stage during competition.  

 

Next step is to work on that gate as recommended.  If the gate is able to open wider I think the cartridges will load much easier.  Seems like the easiest next step anyway.   This has been a good learning experience.   I'm learning that Jim and the rest of these guys tuning these rifles are earning their pay.   

Edited April 17 by Dred Bob

[SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER]

I have had guns in the shop that the gate would rub the bottom of the link, depending on the kit and gate style being used.

["Big Boston"]

WRT mentioning the '66. Some issues with the '66 are a bit unique to it and don't apply to a '73, but the posts do make a point, that the events involved with operating the action all need to work together, timing is the most important factor. Clearance is the other. 

 

Basically the action needs to work within the limitations of the lifter,  The lifter is not where I'd remove metal to try and correct a timing issue. This rule applies more to an action that has not been professionally slicked. With a true action job every piece has been tuned to work in with the other pieces. At the core, you'll need to send it off or determine the root cause and correct that. IMO, the lifter operation looks more like a symptom. There are lots of friction points in a toggle link action, and the wear points do wear. 

In Canada, gunsmiths familiar with the inner working of the '66/'73 rifles are few and usually on the other end of the country. In addition a 3 to 6 month wait for repairs/tuning is normal. That makes DIY less on an option and more of a necessity. One heck of a learning curve, for me anyways, and I did ruin a few parts. Hint, modify the cheap parts first, that way mistakes aren't as costly. 

 

On a '73 a video of complete cycle will give us cowboys an opportunity to see the issue. 

 

I think the maintenance of a '66/'73 is a DIY, modifying probably not. Even the well designed short stroke kits are not entirely a drop in and shoot proposition. 

 

BB

 

P.S. My goto for information is https://www.pioneergunworks.com/technical-info