Taylor primer light strike FTF

[Dred Bob]

I just purchased a matching pair of Taylor Smokewagons used that were factory short stroked and tuned.  One fires great the other FTF about 80% of the time with a light primer strike.  I tried replacing the hammer spring with a heavier spring I had from an Uberti that I updated but it didn't help.  I checked the firing pin protrusion and it locks fine (trigger safety) and protrudes the same as the working the revolver, about the depth of a .38 case rim.  I checked for any drag on the hammer but it is smooth as butter.   I'm at a loss for what else I can check or fix.

 

I've been attempting to send it to Taylor for a week.  I put in a ticket and they responded and asked if I was the original purchaser.  I replied that I wasn't and now they won't respond to the ticket.  I'd pay them to fix it even though it is supposedly all factory original but they are hard to work with.  I've tried calling them and their system hangs up on you when you try to reach support and their online chat is automated and does nothing except create a new ticket that they ignore.   I've worked with Uberti on a couple of issues and they were great.  I'm finding that Taylor is horrible at supporting their product.

 

Any advice for fixing it myself, dealing with Taylor support, or finding a gunsmith that'll work on these 73 clones would be appreciated.

 

edit :  The previous owner did disclose that he had an issue with both revolvers and had returned them both to Taylor for warranty repair but hadn't shot them since the repair. 

[Rye Miles #13621]

10 minutes ago, Dred Bob said:

I just purchased a matching pair of Taylor Smokewagons used that were factory short stroked and tuned.  One fires great the other FTF about 80% of the time with a light primer strike.  I tried replacing the hammer spring with a heavier spring I had from an Uberti that I updated but it didn't help.  I checked the firing pin protrusion and it locks fine (trigger safety) and protrudes the same as the working the revolver, about the depth of a .38 case rim.  I checked for any drag on the hammer but it is smooth as butter.   I'm at a loss for what else I can check or fix.

 

I've been attempting to send it to Taylor for a week.  I put in a ticket and they responded and asked if I was the original purchaser.  I replied that I wasn't and now they won't respond to the ticket.  I'd pay them to fix it even though it is supposedly all factory original but they are hard to work with.  I've tried calling them and their system hangs up on you when you try to reach support and their online chat is automated and does nothing except create a new ticket that they ignore.   I've worked with Uberti on a couple of issues and they were great.  I'm finding that Taylor is horrible at supporting their product.

 

Any advice for fixing it myself, dealing with Taylor support, or finding a gunsmith that'll work on these 73 clones would be appreciated.

Lassiter in Middletown Ohio would probably help or contact Woody Shootem he'll know someone in your area. 

 

[Jay Vendetta]

Lassiter is leaving for a few weeks for big matches, if you want to work with him, which I would recommend he's always done right by me, keep that in mind and give him a few weeks.

[Dred Bob]

9 minutes ago, Jay Vendetta said:

Lassiter is leaving for a few weeks for big matches, if you want to work with him, which I would recommend he's always done right by me, keep that in mind and give him a few weeks.

 

I'm not in a hurry.  I'd just like to have them to shoot next year.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Wow, previous owner   treated you poorly, not testing guns after having a problem and then trusting that Taylor's fixed the problem.

 

You really need about 25 thousandths minimum more protrusion of the firing pin than the thickness of the rim at farthest point of travel.   Less than that, light strikes for sure.  Protrusion equal to the rim thickness (which is "headspace" distance) will just barely mark the primer face if the primer is level with the case head surface!

 

Sounds exactly like too little FP protrusion.  Too bad that did not get fixed under warranty.  Now it will be money out of your pocket to fix it.

 

good luck, GJ

[Warden Callaway]

Is it the new 3 click action or old 4 click?  The 3 click actions are notorious for failure. 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Sufficient firing pin protrusion is very important.  The other two culprits are Head Space and End Shake.  Optimum Head Space is .004 and optimum End Shake is .001   Shims are available to adjust to dimensions from Brownells.

 

Excessive Head Space or Excessive End Shake and the firing pin won't reach far enough for reliable ignition.

[Warden Callaway]

I had a Pietta that was erratic.  Traced it down to the rivet pin that holds the firing pin in place.  In this case,  it didn't. 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

This is a well known issue for these guns. 

Do some research and you'll find the fix.

[Sarge]

Call Taylors.  I've always had better luck with a phone call, though they may be out of town at Land's Run.  Start by asking to speak with the repair shop.  Explain the history.  Don't know if they will honor the warranty unless you ask.

[Choctaw Jack]

Send them to Ken Griner at Griners Gunworks, and have him look them over.

[Dred Bob]

On 10/11/2023 at 1:16 PM, Sarge said:

Call Taylors.  I've always had better luck with a phone call, though they may be out of town at Land's Run.  Start by asking to speak with the repair shop.  Explain the history.  Don't know if they will honor the warranty unless you ask.

I tried calling and after going through the phone queues it takes you to leave a message where it disconnects the call.

[Dred Bob]

On 10/10/2023 at 5:11 PM, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Sufficient firing pin protrusion is very important.  The other two culprits are Head Space and End Shake.  Optimum Head Space is .004 and optimum End Shake is .001   Shims are available to adjust to dimensions from Brownells.

 

Excessive Head Space or Excessive End Shake and the firing pin won't reach far enough for reliable ignition.

 

I assume Head space is part of the cylinder.  I swapped cylinders with a working identical revolver and same issue.  I've never heard of End Shake so I'm not sure how to test it or check it.  what do you shim?

6 hours ago, Choctaw Jack said:

Send them to Ken Griner at Griners Gunworks, and have him look them over.

 

If I can't get Taylor to take them I'll check with Griners.

 

[Warden Callaway]

Firing pin protruding measure for 11 cents.  Taller than a dime,  shorter than a penny. 

 

Endshake is being able to push cylinder forward and back.  Shouldn't more than the slightest amount.  If it push to the point it clanks, it's likely too much.

 

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Okay, based on the context, I *think* FTF is Failure To Fire.  But it was not immediately obvious.

I still don't know what the FP in "too little FP protrusion." means.

Is it too much to ask people to type out the whole word the first time and then use the initialisms afterwards?

[Too Tall Bob]

Firing Pin

[Sarge]

4 hours ago, Dred Bob said:

I tried calling and after going through the phone queues it takes you to leave a message where it disconnects the call.

They may be travelling.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

The BIG question the OP has not addressed yet is whether this is a retractible firing pin model.  If it is that is where you start investigting for a problem.

 

P.S.  Tammy and Sue are the owners of Taylor's and they and the rest of their small crew are wonderful people and great to work with.  They are no doubt at Land Run.  Wait until Land Run is over and they have had a chance to drive home and try them again.

[Old Man Graybeard]

They haven’t got anything set up here at Land Run that I have seen 

[Dred Bob]

14 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

The BIG question the OP has not addressed yet is whether this is a retractible firing pin model.  If it is that is where you start investigting for a problem.

 

P.S.  Tammy and Sue are the owners of Taylor's and they and the rest of their small crew are wonderful people and great to work with.  They are no doubt at Land Run.  Wait until Land Run is over and they have had a chance to drive home and try them again.

 

I'm not sure what a retractable firing pin is since I'm new to the Uberti/Taylor/Cimarron clones.  It's a later model that has the firing pin safety.  The firing pin is loose unless the trigger is pulled then it is "pinned?" and will fire.   

 

I'm glad to hear that they're typically dependable.  I've had extremely good luck with dealing with every other firearm vendor that I've had the misfortune to need repair work done.   I absolutely don't mind a malfunction or issue if the mfg is willing work with me to repair it.  That's just part of it.  This is the first time I've had a challenge even getting in the door....   I'll keep trying and give them the benefit of the doubt.

[Warden Callaway]

 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

6 minutes ago, Dred Bob said:

I'm not sure what a retractable firing pin is since I'm new to the Uberti/Taylor/Cimarron clones.  It's a later model that has the firing pin safety.  The firing pin is loose unless the trigger is pulled then it is "pinned?" and will fire.   

 

That sounds like the retractable firing pin.  They have a reputation for the firing pin not locking properly when the trigger is pulled.  On a non-short stroke model a typical solution is to replace the hammer and trigger with ones from a standard "four click" model.  That won't work with the short stroke as the parts are different and short stroke parts are very hard to find.  You best bet may be to find a smith that will pin the firing pin in its forward position permanently and eliminate the retract feature.  Since this is a "safety" feature I doubt that Taylor will eliminate it.  They will try to fix what is there.

[Dred Bob]

Taylor just emailed me an RMA# and shipping label to work on it.  Lets see what they find.

[Taos]

I fixed my 3 click Smokewagons a couple years ago.  Been working fine.

I removed the safety plunger that goes up inside the hammer.  The plunger pushes up behind the firing pin when the trigger is pulled and protrudes behind the firing pin holding the firing pin out to strike the primer.   (The pin that holds the plunger in place is not easy to remove.  Careful punch work.  Don't need to remove it either, just get it out far enough to remove the plunger.)

The plunger was peened down and burred by the firing pin and "flattened", not allowing the firing pin to protrude far enough for a good primer strike.

I removed the firing pin, it was fine.  (Called and talked with Taylors, they said this is a common failure and could fix it with new plunger.)  The problem is the plunger is softer then the hammer or the firing pin, so it would eventually fail.

I used a drill bit that was slightly smaller diameter than the firing pin base.

I measured the diameter of the plunger.

I used a rotary tool to slice off a piece of the drill bit, making a spacer.   I had to slowly grind, file, buff the spacer to the correct thickness.  Correct thickness for me was a few thousands greater than the plunger to ensure the firing pin would protrude further than designed.

After a while of delicate work on the spacer getting it the correct thickness and polished I dropped it into the firing pin hole in the hammer.

Then put the firing pin back in the hammer. 

Firing pin still floats, I keep it oiled, has been working great and I hope is a permanent repair.   

I put the worn out plungers in the used parts bin.  

 

Sorry, I do not remember what size drill bit I used or the final thickness of the spacer.  Thickness may have been .080, but not sure.

 

Before I made this repair I researched fixes.   Most common was to re-pin the plunger in the hammer so it was always behind the firing pin.  I did not think doing this would be a permanent fix as the plunger would continue to flatten, peen and burr.  Probably to the extent that it would later be impossible to remove at all.

[Taos]

"Taylor just emailed me an RMA# and shipping label to work on it.  Lets see what they find."

 

If they are only going to replace the plungers the guns are liable to fail again.  

I'd call and ask them what fix they are going to do.

They are great folks!

Good Luck

[Dred Bob]

2 hours ago, Taos said:

I fixed my 3 click Smokewagons a couple years ago.  Been working fine.

I removed the safety plunger that goes up inside the hammer.  The plunger pushes up behind the firing pin when the trigger is pulled and protrudes behind the firing pin holding the firing pin out to strike the primer.   (The pin that holds the plunger in place is not easy to remove.  Careful punch work.  Don't need to remove it either, just get it out far enough to remove the plunger.)

The plunger was peened down and burred by the firing pin and "flattened", not allowing the firing pin to protrude far enough for a good primer strike.

I removed the firing pin, it was fine.  (Called and talked with Taylors, they said this is a common failure and could fix it with new plunger.)  The problem is the plunger is softer then the hammer or the firing pin, so it would eventually fail.

I used a drill bit that was slightly smaller diameter than the firing pin base.

I measured the diameter of the plunger.

I used a rotary tool to slice off a piece of the drill bit, making a spacer.   I had to slowly grind, file, buff the spacer to the correct thickness.  Correct thickness for me was a few thousands greater than the plunger to ensure the firing pin would protrude further than designed.

After a while of delicate work on the spacer getting it the correct thickness and polished I dropped it into the firing pin hole in the hammer.

Then put the firing pin back in the hammer. 

Firing pin still floats, I keep it oiled, has been working great and I hope is a permanent repair.   

I put the worn out plungers in the used parts bin.  

 

Sorry, I do not remember what size drill bit I used or the final thickness of the spacer.  Thickness may have been .080, but not sure.

 

Before I made this repair I researched fixes.   Most common was to re-pin the plunger in the hammer so it was always behind the firing pin.  I did not think doing this would be a permanent fix as the plunger would continue to flatten, peen and burr.  Probably to the extent that it would later be impossible to remove at all.

 

Thank you for the great description.  This gives me a very helpful understanding of how that trigger safety works and how it might cause failures.  I have not attempted to pull the hammer on a 73 before but I've probably been 90% of the way there.  I never considered taking down the hammer internals but it seems reasonable and I don't need a machine shop.  Thank you, it gives me a few options and I will followup with Taylor and update the post with whatever they find.

[Dred Bob]

On 10/12/2023 at 7:07 PM, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Okay, based on the context, I *think* FTF is Failure To Fire.  But it was not immediately obvious.

I still don't know what the FP in "too little FP protrusion." means.

Is it too much to ask people to type out the whole word the first time and then use the initialisms afterwards?

 

I apologize and agree.  I'll keep that in mind for future posts.

[Dred Bob]

On 10/12/2023 at 3:18 PM, Warden Callaway said:

Firing pin protruding measure for 11 cents.  Taller than a dime,  shorter than a penny. 

 

Endshake is being able to push cylinder forward and back.  Shouldn't more than the slightest amount.  If it push to the point it clanks, it's likely too much.

 

 

 

thanks for the pic.  very helpful.    I shipped it to Taylor Friday so I can't compare it now.  The cylinder was tight and I did try to swap it with another cylinder although that wouldn't help if it was the frame

[Dred Bob]

Final update on the Taylor.   I received the repaired revolver from Taylor a couple of weeks ago and just had time tonight to test it out at the range.  It worked perfect.  2 years after the sale to the original owner and Taylor still backed their product and repaired it.  I'm not sure what all they did but it works now.   I won't hesitate to buy a Taylor in the future.