Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Not a WTC, More of a How do Deal with this?


Tequila Shooter
 Share

Recommended Posts

We all know the rule IRT leaving the ULT with a loaded gun gets you a SDQ, I understand the rule and agree with it.  But every once and a while there can be a situation that leaves you (at least me) scratching your head, case in point.  Earlier this year at a state match I’m shooting Frontiersman and the stage instructions had that the shooter start with the rifle, pistols were holstered.  I got up to the line, buzzer goes off and the first rifle round got hung up on the carrier.  Since no round had gone down range I went to the ULT to clear it.  I made the mistake of leaving the ULT to get a screwdriver with my loaded pistols still holstered, I called a SDQ on myself and told Posse Marshal, never did figure out why the round got hung up, everything including the round in question ran just fine after that.   Couple of weeks ago at a local match I got into a similar situation except this time I had left a snap cap in the rifle and had to go to the ULT to clear it, this time I left my loaded C&B pistols at the table when I went to the gun cart, learned my lesson the first time.  Once I got the snap cap out of the rifle I asked the ULT officer to bring my loaded revolvers back to the LT.  This got me to thinking why is someone walking with loaded guns in hand safer then the shooter walking with the same loaded revolvers holstered?   And before anyone jumps in and says that the revolvers should have been unloaded at the ULT remember that they are C&B guns and it’s a lot more dangerous to de-cap them.

 

So, the question is how would you and your club handle that situation?  

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think walking away with the guns in holsters is a stage DQ, obviously per the rules, but more importantly per the intent of the rule. I will elaborate.

 

When you are carrying in hand a loaded revolver you are rather unlikely to forget that you are walking around with a loaded revolver. That being the case the revolver will get to a safe location. From there the revolver will be carried through the firing line and appropriately discharged.  

Contrast that with walking around carrying holstered revolvers. We do that all the time between stages. It would be very easy to forget that you are carrying loaded revolvers. At that point is when they become dangerous.

 

To actually answer your question about how I would handle the situation. Ideally, the revolvers would never go to the unloading table. At the point where you became unable to shoot the stage. The revolvers, having not been touched, could be brought directly to the loading table to wait for your return. As a TO I would bring them there myself, or designate somebody else to do so. Thus leaving you free to concentrate on the gun that you need to concentrate on at the unloading table.

Edited by Fretless
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

They never left the line.  Were under supervision.  Nicely done

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

First, I dont want the guns to go anywhere except with the shooter. Shooter is responsible for guns at all times. I don want his/her guns at the LT and them at the ULT. I will allow a shooter to cross from UNL to LT with holstered loaded pistols as long as they are escorted, preferably by the UNL officer. As Frettless pointed out, all of us are capable for those "Oh look a squirrel" moments so with two people hopefully they will get to the LT with not problems.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, Tn Tombstone said:

First, I dont want the guns to go anywhere except with the shooter. Shooter is responsible for guns at all times. I don want his/her guns at the LT and them at the ULT. I will allow a shooter to cross from UNL to LT with holstered loaded pistols as long as they are escorted, preferably by the UNL officer. As Frettless pointed out, all of us are capable for those "Oh look a squirrel" moments so with two people hopefully they will get to the LT with not problems.

 

I agree on the “2 person rule” when the shooter goes from the ULT to the LT.  IMHO the guns are safer in the holsters, and the shooter is remaining in control of their weapon. 

 

I’m pretty sure that this situation doesn’t happen very often but it does raise a question when it happens. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Tn Tombstone said:

First, I dont want the guns to go anywhere except with the shooter. Shooter is responsible for guns at all times. I don want his/her guns at the LT and them at the ULT. I will allow a shooter to cross from UNL to LT with holstered loaded pistols as long as they are escorted, preferably by the UNL officer.

New plan.  I like this answer better than what I posted.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We had a shooter today that had a rifle jam prior to any rounds going down range. We let him go to the unloading table and clear the jam, reload his rifle and stay at the unloading until they next shooter finished the stage. We then let him come back up and shoot the stage
 

Randy

  • Like 11
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

We had a shooter today that had a rifle jam prior to any rounds going down range. We let him go to the unloading table and clear the jam, reload his rifle and stay at the unloading until they next shooter finished the stage. We then let him come back up and shoot the stage
 

Randy

Our posse had the same thing. What're the odds.

Ours happened at the Dance Hall.

Edited by Tennessee williams
  • Like 2
  • Haha 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I keep saying it, and will again here.

 

Four down first.

 

As soon as you the shooter get to the unloading table, put down the long guns then -immediately- table your pistols.

 

Every. Single. Time.

 

Four down on the table, first.

 

Don't talk. Don't listen. Don't clear. Dont sign scores. Dont holler for tools. Dont argue. Don't-nothing- until four down on the table, first.

 

Ideally, do nothing but clear until done. Broken gun last.

 

Then converse, cuss, coach, gloat, whatever.

 

And table officer, keep the kibbtzers away until four down on the table first, and clear. You too.

 

Four, down, first.

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Burt Blade, #25657 said:

I keep saying it, and will again here.

 

Four down first.

 

As soon as you the shooter get to the unloading table, put down the long guns then -immediately- table your pistols.

 

Every. Single. Time.

 

Four down on the table, first.

 

Don't talk. Don't listen. Don't clear. Dont sign scores. Dont holler for tools. Dont argue. Don't-nothing- until four down on the table, first.

 

Ideally, do nothing but clear until done. Broken gun last.

 

Then converse, cuss, coach, gloat, whatever.

 

And table officer, keep the kibbtzers away until four down on the table first, and clear. You too.

 

Four, down, first.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You’re right, and it’s a good habit to get into. The first time as I noted was completely my fault and that’s why I called the penalty on myself.  The questionable scenario really only applies to folks shooting Frontiersman since other pistols can be unloaded safely at the ULT.  So, Mr. Blade how do you handle the situation if it ever comes up?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cap n ball guns that are loaded can be safely transported like any other live/loaded handgun. Holstered works best. "Safe direction" otherwise. As long as muzzle control is appropriate, and the shuffle/transport is per Timer Operator direction, and no one gets swept, no big deal.

 

Folks over think this stuff on edge cases. Shooters can and do run with loaded revolver(s) in hand at the line. Safely. Walking a gun should not be a major concern, again as TO/RO directed.

 

Some rules are arbitrary, yes. If folks refrained from arguing when they done wrong, the rulebook would still fit in a pocket.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’m still going with @Tennessee Tombstone on this one, it sounds reasonable to me to have the shooter go back to the LT with someone if the shooter can’t go directly from the ULT back to start the stage. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is just my opinion. 

Going to the unloading table to clear a jammed (first gun) table all guns, with ULTO having knowledge all are still loaded/capped.  

Clear the jammed gun, empty it, shot it empty. 

Then under the watch or assistance with a TO appointed person, holster(in this case) the loaded revolvers, go directly (do not pass go, do not collect $200) to the loading table and reload the jammed gun.  If you need more ammo, get it before re holstering at the ULT.  

 

Being under the eye of a TO appointed person is the key to the safety, and that is what is at play in this situation.  

 

With C&B the only other way to safely unload is to fire all the loaded caps/cylinders, which means the time to reload, recap and remove the shooter from other posse duties, or hold up the posse if the shooter is last.  

 

Again my opinion, and I have been accused, on occasion, of being reasonable. 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I shoot Frontiersman, 1860 Armies. My preference is to remove the cylinder, my wedges hand pull out and easy to remove, then remove my caps from the nipples, and return to my holsters to take back to the LT to put on new caps.I don’t mind shooters returning holstered revolvers to the LT but that would not be my preference. 10 new caps is what it costs for me to feel safer. If I shot Remington C&B revolvers it would take even less time. Once you have your routine figured out it is not that hard. Just the view from my saddle.

 

Edited by Diamond Curly SASS#57086
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Diamond Curly SASS#57086 said:

I shoot Frontiersman, 1860 Armies. My preference is to remove the cylinder, my wedges hand pull out and easy to remove, then remove my caps from the nipples, and return to my holsters to take back to the LT to put on new nipples. I don’t mind shooters returning holstered revolvers to the LT but that would not be my preference. 10 new nipples is what it costs for me to feel safer. If I shot Remington C&B revolvers it would take even less time. Once you have your routine figured out it is not that hard. Just the view from my saddle.

 

 

You bring out a good point if it’s easy enough to take the cylinders out then a designated (by the TO) person could bring the cylinders to the LT.  Then the shooter could load the rifle and put the cylinders back in.  Of course only the shooter knows how difficult it is to remove their cylinders and it may not be practical for everyone. 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Tequila Shooter said:

if it’s easy enough to take the cylinders out then a designated (by the TO) person could bring the cylinders to the LT.  Then the shooter could load the rifle and put the cylinders back in.

It sounds like you want to do that without de-capping the cylinders? That would highly increase the risk of an AD if dropped, probably worse than loading 6 in a SAA. Both complete and capped guns back to holsters for transportation sounds a lot better to me!

 

I've never shot C&B (yet), but by the comments below, de-capping doesn't seem like a option to me.

 

On 9/17/2022 at 1:13 PM, Tequila Shooter said:

they are C&B guns and it’s a lot more dangerous to de-cap them.

12 hours ago, Nutmeg Ryder, SASS # 74966 said:

With C&B the only other way to safely unload is to fire all the loaded caps/cylinders

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Capped cylinders are considered loaded and treated just like a full revolver. Yet they are easier to drop and keep pointed in a safe direction. Not a good idea to remove capped cylinders from a revolver.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Tequila Shooter said:

 

You bring out a good point if it’s easy enough to take the cylinders out then a designated (by the TO) person could bring the cylinders to the LT.  Then the shooter could load the rifle and put the cylinders back in.  Of course only the shooter knows how difficult it is to remove their cylinders and it may not be practical for everyone. 

 

Caped cylinders are treated no different than a loaded pistol. I would much rather see a capped loaded revolver transported in holsters than a capped loaded cylinder carried. 

 

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Diamond Curly SASS#57086 said:

I shoot Frontiersman, 1860 Armies. My preference is to remove the cylinder, my wedges hand pull out and easy to remove, then remove my caps from the nipples, and return to my holsters to take back to the LT to put on new nipples. I don’t mind shooters returning holstered revolvers to the LT but that would not be my preference. 10 new nipples is what it costs for me to feel safer. If I shot Remington C&B revolvers it would take even less time. Once you have your routine figured out it is not that hard. Just the view from my saddle.

 

 

Just my not so humble opinion but decapping a loaded cylinder out of the gun is unsafe gun handling and should be prohibited.

Should a cap be set off, I am 100% sure that the holder of said cylinder would loose control of it. The possibility of the remaining cylinders being set off as said cylinder is uncontrolled is too great. With the cylinder in the gun it is unlikely that the shooter would loose control of the pistol and at least any remaining caps are protected by the frame of the gun should the shooter loose their grip.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good discussion.  

 

There is only ONE problem that I see.  Not ALL matches have an ULTO.  I know, I know, check each other... that doesn't work at LT (I look at EVERY hammer before I start loading if there isn't an officer) and it MOSTLY does not work at the ULT. The situation @Tequila Shooter describes happens (not always with C & B revolvers) relatively often and can be dangerous.

 

I travel a lot and see how things are done different places... most clubs "mandate" a LTO and a ULTO.  Great in theory not always in practice.  I think we can (and should) do better.  When I am PM and something like this happens, I do as @Tn Tombstone recommends and have the shooter escorted. I also ask for a dedicated LT and ULT Officer provided the posse is big enough.  I always have an ULT Officer.

 

Hugs!

Scarlett

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/19/2022 at 7:45 PM, Diamond Curly SASS#57086 said:

I shoot Frontiersman, 1860 Armies. My preference is to remove the cylinder, my wedges hand pull out and easy to remove, then remove my caps from the nipples, and return to my holsters to take back to the LT to put on new caps.I don’t mind shooters returning holstered revolvers to the LT but that would not be my preference. 10 new caps is what it costs for me to feel safer. If I shot Remington C&B revolvers it would take even less time. Once you have your routine figured out it is not that hard. Just the view from my saddle.

 

I did not mean return the cylinders to the loading table but to remove the caps at the unloading table, then return to the loading table to recap.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Diamond Curly SASS#57086 said:

I did not mean return the cylinders to the loading table but to remove the caps at the unloading table, then return to the loading table to recap.

 

That works but you should not remove the cylinders from the revolvers capped in order to remove the caps.

  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess we all have our own comfort level, I don’t like trying to remove caps, I’m always worried about an AD.  I still think it’s best to either go from the ULT directly back to the line or being escorted back to the LT. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If it is safe to walk from a to b as instructed, why complicate things? 

 

Go to the unloading table as directed. Put down all four. Solve the malfunction. Holster  and pick up long guns. Go to loading table as directed. Put down all four. Go get needed items to finish loading. Finish loading. When called, pick up and go play ciwboy..

 

Don't overthink it.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.