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Safe to use this 45-70?


Tallboy
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I'm waiting on a 1886 in 45-70, and I'm new to big bore calibers. I just wanted to make sure before I shoot...


I bought this: https://fortscottmunitions.com/45-70-government-scs-tui-300gr-rifle-ammo-bulk-ammo/

 

Some things I wanted to be sure of though first...

 

  1. It has a flat nose tip, but the flat nose is JUST as big as the primer of the round sitting in front of it... so effectively they could still jam together. Could this cause an accidental discharge?
  2. it says something about "tumble upon impact", not sure if that is bad
  3. it says 100% copper, no lead, also not sure if that is bad

 

My goal is to not damage the gun or have them accidentally discharge. I'm only shooting for fun so other than that I don't care for this first box.

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No.  The spec sheet specifies Marlin 1895s and TC Contenders.  TUI, Tumble Upon Impact, signifies a hunting round.   While an Winchester style 1886 lever action is stronger than an 1873 or 1876, it is not intended for that type of round.  Most 45-70 ammunition to be found on store shelves (assuming it can be found)is loaded to lower pressures.   As an example, If looking online look up Choice Ammunition (choiceammunition.com) under Cowboy loads.  They have 45-70 ammunition available. 

Edited by Tex Jones, SASS 2263
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I have seen factory .45-70 ammo come with one of two labels.

 

1.  "Safe for use in all rifles."

2. "Not for use in Trapdoor Rifles."

 

Both types are good to go in an 1886 Winchester.   I have never seen any ammo, but there are reloading formulas for .45-70 that are too strong for the Winchester, and it it specifically says so in the data.  There may be factory loaded ammo that fits this spec, but I just don't know.  With factory ammo, read the labels carefully.   If you roll your own, make sure you are using the right data.

Edited by H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619
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21 minutes ago, Tex Jones, SASS 2263 said:

No.  The spec sheet specifies Marlin 1895s and TC Contenders.  TUI, Tumble Upon Impact, signifies a hunting round.   While an Winchester style 1886 lever action is stronger than an 1873 or 1876, it is not intended for that type of round.  Most 45-70 ammunition to be found on store shelves (assuming it can be found)is loaded to lower pressures.   As an example, If looking online look up Choice Ammunition (choiceammunition.com) under Cowboy loads.  They have 45-70 ammunition available. 

Hmm, that is very disappointing. So is this one of those scenarios like the 1873 where its "not advisable" to shoot factory loads from the store, over a long period of time, but many people do it, and put hundreds of rounds through it and it's fine... or is this a "never do it a single time" scenario? I'm basically thinking if its fine to shoot a single box and not buy it again, or if I need to go return it.

 

I'm looking at this spec sheet but I don't even see what in here would tell me not to use it. I would expect some kind of pressure number or some objective number to compare, rather than having to deduce different action types.

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26 minutes ago, Tex Jones, SASS 2263 said:

No.  The spec sheet specifies Marlin 1895s and TC Contenders.  TUI, Tumble Upon Impact, signifies a hunting round.   While an Winchester style 1886 lever action is stronger than an 1873 or 1876, it is not intended for that type of round.  Most 45-70 ammunition to be found on store shelves (assuming it can be found)is loaded to lower pressures.   As an example, If looking online look up Choice Ammunition (choiceammunition.com) under Cowboy loads.  They have 45-70 ammunition available. 

Also can you tell me more by what you mean here? "it is not intended for that type of round" ... is it the shape of the round or what?

 

I'm just trying to learn so I know what to look for.


Also, wouldnt a lower pressure mean it is safer to shoot?


Sorry for the dumb questions...

Edited by Tallboy
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I don’t see anything in that spec sheet that says it is for certain rifles only. There was a “5 gun test” and the 5 guns it was tested in are listed, marlins, a henry and a t/c. 
never use ammo not intended for your gun, but usually if there is heavy loads that exclude certain types of guns that is written in large red letters on the box. If there is any doubt, don’t take our word for it. Call the company!!!! Their phone number is on the spec sheet for that ammo, and probably somewhere on the box. 

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2 minutes ago, Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428 said:

I don’t see anything in that spec sheet that says it is for certain rifles only. There was a “5 gun test” and the 5 guns it was tested in are listed, marlins, a henry and a t/c. 
never use ammo not intended for your gun, but usually if there is heavy loads that exclude certain types of guns that is written in large red letters on the box. If there is any doubt, don’t take our word for it. Call the company!!!! Their phone number is on the spec sheet for that ammo, and probably somewhere on the box. 

Ok thanks. The only thing on the box I see is "not for use in revolvers"

 

I just emailed the company. 


Either way, this was just to tide me over until my cowboy loads come. I just wanted to shoot a single box when they get here.

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SAAMI pressure max in the Trapdoor of 1873 is 28,000psi. If you read the spec sheet your manufacturer supplies here it notes a pressure test result of just under (27830psi). The flat nose should be fine in a tubular magazine. 

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21 minutes ago, Wallaby Damned said:

SAAMI pressure max in the Trapdoor of 1873 is 28,000psi. If you read the spec sheet your manufacturer supplies here it notes a pressure test result of just under (27830psi). The flat nose should be fine in a tubular magazine. 

Oh wow, I see that now. THANK YOU!

 

Now, the only question left is... how do I find the exact pressure max for the Chiappa 1886 (non-deluxe model)?

 

https://www.chiappafirearms.com/product.php?id=59

 

https://www.chiappafirearms.com/uploadimmagini/prodotti_manuali_documento_32.pdf

 

I dont know what a trapdoor is... is that some kind of gun that is chambered in 45-70 that is particularly weak, and cant hold most factory 45-70 ?

Edited by Tallboy
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Just to be safe I'd pass and find some lighter loads....or learn to load your own....or make friends with someone who can and will.

 

I have a Browning 1886 in .45-70.  

 

I wouldn't deliberately go after some game because it's just too dangerous.  On the other hand if push ever came to shove I wouldn't hesitate one second to tackle anything on the planet using standard velocity 405 grain bullets.

Edited by Forty Rod SASS 3935
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if you read the manual (pg.10 Bullet 4) that you highlighted above, the manufacturer clearly states “Use only high quality, original factory manufactured ammunition whose pressure cannot be higher than the one stated by S.A.A.M.l. or C.I.P.”. Which would be 28,000psi, which would be any commercially available 45-70 loading NOT designated as +P or for use in specific rifles such as the Marlin 1895 etc.  This would also mean an handload constructed to follow manufacturer specific instructions designed not to exceed the aforementioned  SAAMI max of 28,000psi. 
 

Regarding +P loads such as those from Buffalo Bore , they note “Its use should be limited to the following firearms: All Marlin 1895 (1895 Marlins are simply 336 actions, with a 45-70 barrel screwed on) iterations made since 1972, all Browning 1885 and 1886 copies, Rossi Rio Grande, New England Arms Handi Rifle, T/C Encore, ALL falling block actions made of modern steel such as the Ruger #1 and #3, Shiloh, Christian and Pedersoli Sharps, Henry Lever Action Rifles, all Winchester 1886 iterations made since 1915, CVA Centerfire Rifles and all Siamese Mauser bolt actions.”

I don’t know that I would be keen to fire +P loads in an 1886-type action (after all, just because you can doesn’t mean you should…) but they seem to think it would or should be ok. Having shot said loads in a Marlin 1895, in my case an 1895SBL,  I can tell you they’re somewhat unpleasant, but I would not hesitate to use them on anything walking the North American continent if I had to.  With your specific model having a crescent buttplate, I would confidently state that you will not want to shoot too many of these before wanting to go find something else to do. 


as to your question regarding Trapdoor Rifles, here: Trapdoor Rifle

Edited by Wallaby Damned
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18 minutes ago, Wallaby Damned said:

if you read the manual that you highlighted above, the manufacturer clearly states “Use only high quality, original factory manufactured ammunition whose pressure cannot be higher than the one stated by S.A.A.M.l. or C.I.P.”. Which would be 28,000psi, which would be any commercially available 45-70 loading NOT designated as +P or for use in specific rifles such as the Marlin 1895 etc.  This would also mean an handload constructed to follow manufacturer specific instructions designed not to exceed the aforementioned  SAAMI max of 28,000psi. 
 

Regarding +P loads such as those from Buffalo Bore , they note “Its use should be limited to the following firearms: All Marlin 1895 (1895 Marlins are simply 336 actions, with a 45-70 barrel screwed on) iterations made since 1972, all Browning 1885 and 1886 copies, Rossi Rio Grande, New England Arms Handi Rifle, T/C Encore, ALL falling block actions made of modern steel such as the Ruger #1 and #3, Shiloh, Christian and Pedersoli Sharps, Henry Lever Action Rifles, all Winchester 1886 iterations made since 1915, CVA Centerfire Rifles and all Siamese Mauser bolt actions.”

I don’t know that I would be keen to fire +P loads in an 1886-type action (after all, just because you can doesn’t mean you should…) but they seem to think it would or should be ok. Having shot said loads in a Marlin 1895, in my case an 1895SBL,  I can tell you they’re somewhat unpleasant, but I would not hesitate to use them on anything walking the North American continent if I had to.  With your specific model having a crescent buttplate, I would confidently state that you will not want to shoot too many of these before wanting to go find something else to do. 


as to your question regarding Trapdoor Rifles, here: Trapdoor Rifle

Very interesting, I've spent the last few hours trying to learn about this, I think I'm getting a grasp on it. (Ive never reloaded before), but now I see that they correspond to the 3 levels... 

 

The biggest question I have right now is its kind of vague what a "winchester" is. For example, is the original winchester a winchester until Miroku made it? Are Chiappa, Pedersoli, etc also "Winchesters" or are they some other term? It says "Browning 1886 copy" which I guess is what a Chiappa 1886 falls under?


Youre right, I dont want to shoot those, just trying to learn a bit more. Based on this info it seems that ideally I should be shooting around 17K PSI for "comfort" (trapdoor) and if i want to go hard I can shoot a few 27-28K (for example this box of 20 I bought). Does that sound about right?

 

Ive also heard 27K in some areas, and 28K in others. I will just trust yours that says 28K, and make sure any ammo I buy from store is < 28K

 

Actually one other question... how is levergun50 able to handle 50K PSI so safely by only changing the barrel (he said the receiver was only modified to support a larger round). He said the Miroku supports 50K, but this "ruger #1" level seems to be 40K.

 

 

Edited by Tallboy
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1 hour ago, Forty Rod SASS 3935 said:On the other hand if push ever came to shove I wouldn't hesitate one second to tackle anything on the planet using standard velocity 205 grain bullets.


@Forty Rod, I’m right there with you, save for maybe Brown Bears, though I believe you meant the 405gr bullet. The lightest I’ve seen (and shot) are the Hornady 325gr FTX though I still prefer Speer’s 400gr SPFN trundling along at 16-1700fps. 

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@Wallaby Damned one other question in addition to what I said above ^ ... do the 3 grain levels of the 45-70 correspond to the trapdoor / 1886 / ruger #1 levels? Or are those 2 separate things? In other words, does the first grain usually go with the trapdoor load level of powder, etc?

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@Tallboyi believe the difference lies in the quality of steel used, Pre- and -Post some cutoff date, I believe I’d read 1915 or whatever. Not that I’d go loading hot ammo into a 1916 made Winchester and feel perfectly at ease. Speaking for myself here, I would state with some confidence that so long as you’re shouting loads at or under 28,000psi, your rifle should be just fine, all things considered, as that is what the manufacturer states it can handle.


As to “levergun50” or whomever, I cannot say anything as I am unaware of who this person is or what rifles they may be using. 

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8 minutes ago, Tallboy said:

@Wallaby Damned one other question in addition to what I said above ^ ... do the 3 grain levels of the 45-70 correspond to the trapdoor / 1886 / ruger #1 levels? Or are those 2 separate things? In other words, does the first grain usually go with the trapdoor load level of powder, etc?

 
yes and no. “Level 1” is safe for use in Trapdoor Rifles. “Level 2” should be safe in any firearm that the manufacturer specifically states is ok to shoot these hotter loads in. The information I posted earlier from Buffalo Bore covers which rifles they feel meet this requirement. “Level 3” is for very specific rifles such as the Ruger #1 that have been built to meet the requirements of these hotter loads.  Having shot a #1 in 458 win mag, I will relay that it generated impressive amounts of felt recoil and I no longer own that rifle :lol:

Edited by Wallaby Damned
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5 minutes ago, Wallaby Damned said:

 
yes and no. “Level 1” is safe for use in Trapdoor Rifles. “Level 2” should be safe in any firearm that the manufacturer specifically states is ok to shoot these hotter loads in. The information I posted earlier from Buffalo Bore covers which rifles they feel meet this requirement. “Level 3” is for very specific rifles that have been built to meet the requirements of these hotter loads. 

Sorry my mistake, by "grain level" i meant the bullet grain. Like I have read that 45-70 comes in 3 bullet grain levels. Does the first bullet grain level usually correspond with the #1 powder level?


BTW I really appreciate your answers. Is there any place I can learn all this in detail? A lot of stuff online I cant really trust because sometimes it feels like the blind leading the blind.


I dont plan to do reloading right now, but I still really want to learn all this

Edited by Tallboy
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Bullet grain is a measure of weight, there being 437.5 grains in an ounce. That standard 405gr bullet weighs almost an ounce for reference. In theory and practice, you can load almost any weight bullet provided it is the appropriate caliber for you rifle. 405gr bullets are “standard” for the 45-70 as it approximates the original loading of a 45 caliber, 405gr bullet loaded over 70gr of powder (black powder in this case).  
 

To the second part of your question, not only can bullet weight change, but various powder charges to and for each weight of bullet. Here’s the loading chart from Speer for the previously mentioned 400gr.  They also have a separate page just for Trapdoor-safe loads
 

There are masses of data available online, even on this very website. Searching  “45-70” and “reloading” should get you started. 

Edited by Wallaby Damned
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6 minutes ago, Wallaby Damned said:

Bullet grain is a measure of weight, there being 437.5 grains in an ounce. That standard 405gr bullet weighs almost an ounce for reference. In theory and practice, you can load almost any weight bullet provided it is the appropriate caliber for you rifle. 405gr bullets are “standard” for the 45-70 as it approximates the original loading of a 45 caliber, 405gr bullet loaded over 70gr of powder (black powder in this case).  
 

To the second part of your question, not only can bullet weight change, but various powder charges to and for each weight of bullet. Here’s the loading chart from Speer for the previously mentioned 400gr.  They also have a separate page just for Trapdoor-safe loads
 

There are masses of data available online, even on this very website. Searching  “45-70” and “reloading” should get you started. 

 

Thanks! That's definitely enough to get me started

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First, let me comment on the M1886 Winchester (originals and modern repros).  The original '86's were designed by John Moses Browning when black powder was the only propellant available. By the time smokeless was introduced, Winchester had gone to improved strength steel in the barrels.  In 1903 the .33 Winchester Center Fire (WCF) was introduced, using smokeless, sending a 200 gr. jacketed flat softpoint at around 2250 ft/sec from a 24-inch barrel. In 1935, Winchester made some minor changes which were introduced as the M71, in .348 WCF.  In the 1970's Hornady made a beautiful .338" RFSP bullet for the .33 WCF. Sadly, they discontinued it, probably for lack of a sufficient market.

As to the '86 in .45-70, sticking with loads listed in loading manuals, you can safely shoot cast or jacketed bullets in 350, 405, and 500 gr. If the rifle you are expecting is made by any of the modern companies, no worries.  I do caution that 405 gr. loads with a muzzle velocity in excess of 1750 ft/sec, can result in shoulder setback....YOURS, not the rifle...particularly with a crescent-shaped buttplate! :o  The lighter bullets, 300 gr., can be booster to around 1850 ft/sec, especially with a flat buttplate...the rifle's, not yours! The factory 405 gr. are loaded for the Trapdoor Springfield, and are fine for practice, and can even be used for deer, elk, black bear, and Shira's moose (lower 48), quite effectively.  If you happen to run on an original '86 in .33WCF, and go after wild boar at close range, be sure two of them aren't standing one-behind-the other at about 50 yards, or you may get both with one shot! ;)

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OP, look into reduced loads with AA5744 powder which is designed for this purpose. Shooters World Buffalo Rifle is the LOVEX equivalent and less expensive.

 

I opted to run my 1873 toggle link 44 mag at no more than 80% of SAAMI maximum to avoid stressing the link.  There is an H110 max load that meets this need at 74% max pressure.

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1 hour ago, Wallaby Damned said:


@Forty Rod, I’m right there with you, save for maybe Brown Bears, though I believe you meant the 405gr bullet. The lightest I’ve seen (and shot) are the Hornady 325gr FTX though I still prefer Speer’s 400gr SPFN trundling along at 16-1700fps. 

Damn dyslexic keyboard.  I meant 405 gr.  I changed it.  Thanks

 

(205 is even light for .35 Remington round.)  Like I said "if push came to shove" and I didn't have an option I'd use what I had.  If you had practiced and could keep your wits about you, a well placed .45-70 will do, and a lever action gives you the fastest repeat shots in that caliber.

 

If you can't place your shots and keep calm while shooting, a Ma Deuce may not be enough gun.

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Let me preface this with the statement that I never heard of this brand of ammunition until your question.

 

I wouldn't buy it. If it was give to me I wouldn't shoot it.

 

Let's start with their patented "tumbling bullet". This "tumbling bullet technology" gives "much greater stopping power". Folks, it's a 45 caliber bullet at 1500 feet per second. It's got stopping power.

 

The theory behind a tumbling bullet has better stopping power is talking about a rifle bullet which is long for its width. If a long skinny bullet is tumbling, when it hits it might be sideways, and thus will have more stopping power, although it will have much less penetration. But a pistol bullet, which is about the same length as it is width (and a 300 grain 45 bullet pretty much fits that description) - if it tumbles what does it matter? If it hits nose first, or butt first, or side first there is not a whole lot of different.

 

So that whole tumbling bullet thing is advertising BS.

 

Then I look at the picture of the bullet, and I agree with your worry. The meplate looks way too small. I would not worry about shooting that bullet shape in a Sharps or other single shot, or in a Siamese Mauser. But ain't no way in hell I would put it in a tubular magazine. I like my left hand.

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well I was told by a man , much smarter than I am , 

 

 NOT to use jacketed projectiles in pre 1900 firearms , due to excessive wear to the barrel 

 

 IMO , this is good info. I have seen the date pushed to 1913 , 

 

  Have fun , was it mine , I would only shoot lead , and reduced charge ammo 

 

  Chickasaw Bill 

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14 hours ago, Tex Jones, SASS 2263 said:

No.  The spec sheet specifies Marlin 1895s and TC Contenders.  TUI, Tumble Upon Impact, signifies a hunting round.   While an Winchester style 1886 lever action is stronger than an 1873 or 1876, it is not intended for that type of round.  Most 45-70 ammunition to be found on store shelves (assuming it can be found)is loaded to lower pressures.   As an example, If looking online look up Choice Ammunition (choiceammunition.com) under Cowboy loads.  They have 45-70 ammunition available. 



 Good people up at Choice too but heres a code for them this weekend 

Note code is 2 words not combined 
 

choice2.PNG

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21 hours ago, Wallaby Damned said:

SAAMI pressure max in the Trapdoor of 1873 is 28,000psi. If you read the spec sheet your manufacturer supplies here it notes a pressure test result of just under (27830psi). The flat nose should be fine in a tubular magazine. 

@Wallaby Damned I do have one more question I thought of. Can you explain more what dynamics make this size flat nose OK?

 

I was under the impression that if the nose might detonate the next round, then the flat tip would make it so its partially on the primer, and partially on the casing. In this case, where it fits entirely on the primer, is the reason it's still OK because of (presumably) how sharp of a point is required to detonate a primer? Will the primer not detonate or something unless its a sharp hole (like a paperclip/pin size), and a wider slam across the entire surface area will not do anything, or ...?

Edited by Tallboy
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I would venture a guess that it’s not having a rounded or pointed tip resting on the primer ahead. Is this particular ammo safe in a tube magazine? Probably. I wouldn’t worry about it were it mine. I also wouldn’t think twice about shooting jacketed ammunition in this rifle. 

If it’s that much of a concern, single load your box and get flat points the next time. 

Edited by Wallaby Damned
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Just now, Wyatt Earp SASS#1628L said:

Says right in the spec sheet for this ammo, "safe in tubular magazines"

Damn I've looked at that for a good 20 minutes and missed that. Thank you. I trust your guys answers, I was just trying to also learn why while I'm doing it. I will go read about primer detonation

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Before using this ammo for hunting, I would suggest reading your states regulations. From what i can tell this a solid, nonexpanding bullet. It tumbling does not make it a hunting bullet. In Wisconsin you must use an expanding type bullet on deer, bear and elk, so  this, in my mind would make this an illegal bullet.

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