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Shotgun Primers are some softer than others ?


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I’m not sure harness of SG primers is an issue but pressure variation can be. This pic is stolen from the Lyman 5th edition shotshell reloading manual. Note, this is NOT to say that the pressure variation will always follow this one example. 

D5540583-0359-4D91-9DA4-4BB9B3559CB5.jpeg

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Shotgun primers should not be freely interchanged.  We get away with it with CAS loads because most of us are loading extremely light.  I recently did an article for the Chronicle about shotgun hulls and primers.  Not sure it ever got published.  Right now some primers and factory loaded ammo are having some problems.  The primers are different diameters, shapes and some have the actual primer set too deeply in the cup.  Recent lots of Federal Top Guns have the primer set too deep and are causing some misfires.  Federal may be the cats's meow for pistol primers but their shotgun primers are all steel.  The cup and the actual primer.  Winchesters are the best all-around shotgun primer.  Just to be clear the primer cup is the blue arrow.  All shotgun primers have steel cups.  The actual primer is in red.  On Federal, for example, this is steel.  On the Winchester it is brass. Notice how much deeper the primer is set in the cup on the primer to the right and how the two primers are different shapes.

 

DSC_0006.jpeg

Edited by Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933
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OK then,

Why does everyone ignore Remington STS primers?

Depending on which reloading manual you use they are generally either the lowest pressure generating primer (or pretty close), I have never heard of them deforming the primer pockets on your hulls like some of the European versions have been known to do and to date I have never had a "dud" primer that did not go off.

I used to use Federal primers in Stoegers but when I switched to SKB's, I noticed the Federals were domed and would give light strikes and failure to fires regularly.

Moved on to Remingtons which are flat where the firing pin hits and problems went away and have never come back in any of my SKB's.

I realize the Remingtons are more expensive, but with a SxS (I always load two) so if a problem occurs with a round it is a pretty severe penalty in your stage time so spending the extra money is well worth it for the confidence factor alone. I am certainly not the fastest with a shotgun but typically run 4.5-5 seconds for 4 and a bad round is at least a 2 second or more add to my time.

Regards

:FlagAm:  :FlagAm:  :FlagAm:

Gateway Kid

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1 hour ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

Why does everyone ignore Remington STS primers?

 

As you noted cost was a factor.  Another factor was availability.  Around here you seldom saw them for sale and when they were they were only in small quantities. Whereas you could (everything in past tense with the current shortages) find Winchester, Federal and CCI (and several brands of foreign primers) in cases of 5,000 pretty much everywhere you were lucky if you could find 1,000 Remingtons at a time.  Good primers but expensive and hard to find.  When everything was in stock most 209 primers were in the $120.00 to $150.00 per case range.  Remingtons were in the $275.00 to $300.00 range.

Edited by Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933
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8 hours ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

OK then,

Why does everyone ignore Remington STS primers?

I haven't seen any around here for ions!

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31 minutes ago, Arcadia Outlaw SASS#71385 said:


Have you had issues with other primers not going off then switch to chedite and have no issues ? 
 

AO

To begin with, I shoot a BSS that has had the springs greatly reduced, and had a good deal of issue with most American Shotshell primers. I couldn't make 50% of any Federal primer go off.... whether reload or new ammo. I generally load Remington hulls. Of all the US primers, the Remington worked the best for me... however I still experienced a lot of FTF. The issue was MY GUN, I am fully aware of that, but I liked it and didn't want to change it. So, I started loading Euro primers which are a little larger in diameter. They don't load quite as deep, leaving the primer just a tad higher and allowing them to receive a better hit from the firing pin. I have NEVER had a FTF since changing to them several years ago. I have a pretty good stock of them, but always keep my eye's open for a few more when they come up for sale. When I purchased my last supply, they were $23/1000 so I got a few.  

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1 hour ago, Snakebite said:

I will use Chedite for the rest of my life.

We do too!

And ignore my earlier post, as that was for pistol/rifle primers.

We have never had issues with Chedite.

Actually never had issue with any shotgun primers.

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I’ve never used anything else but Winchester, never had a problem!

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Moved here from what appears to be a duplicate thread.

 

Not a direct answer to your question, but I will note that the cups on the Federal shotgun primers are set a couple thousanths deeper (.003" to .004" on the batch I measured) than on Winchester.  I know that it has cause a few folks to have rounds that failed to fire.  My TTN doesn't seem to care, but my wife's Stoger doesn't like the Federals.

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I've used Winchester, Federal & currently Chedite. Never an issue with either, however the Chedite are slightly larger and may make the pocket too large to go back to Win or Fed. When I was able to acquire Chedite, they were just under 1o buck cheaper per brick and have worked flawlessly.

 

PS  I'm shooting a Stoeger and Ellie is shooting a CB '97

Edited by Eyesa Horg
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I agree with the Federal primers being lower in the cup. Had FTF in several guns. I stopped using them and went exclusively to Winchester but can't replenish my supply of those right now.. I just loaded the last of my Winchester's and used some Fiocchi's that I got from a cowboy buddy. We shot those last weekend with no problem. I have 3,000 Cheddites that I was able to buy recently at pre pandemic prices. I had heard that they were larger and would eventually stretch your primer pockets. When I bought then I miked the cup diameter and it was exactly the same as my Winchester's. Haven't loaded any yet.

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As far as soft primers.  I have a few friends (me included) that have trouble with SXS opening after firing WW LRLN..  But can reload the same hulls with WW primers and no problems.   Starting to think factory have "softer" cup than the primers they sell reloaders?      GW

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Winchester & Rio 209 primers are the hardest and Federal are soft.  The wax bullet cartridges used in the Cowboy Fast Draw game use nickle plated 45 Colt cases with an oversized 209 primer pocket.  A 209 primer provides the gas required to propel the wax filled plastic cup bullet.  The gas pressures generated by the primer are not enough to insure a convex bulge in a primer is flatted against the recoil shield.  The bulge in a soft primer more than fills the gap between the cylinder and recoil shield.  The cylinder will not rotate.   To clear the jam requires removing the base pin & cylinder.

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23 hours ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

OK then,

Why does everyone ignore Remington STS primers?

Depending on which reloading manual you use they are generally either the lowest pressure generating primer (or pretty close), I have never heard of them deforming the primer pockets on your hulls like some of the European versions have been known to do and to date I have never had a "dud" primer that did not go off.

I used to use Federal primers in Stoegers but when I switched to SKB's, I noticed the Federals were domed and would give light strikes and failure to fires regularly.

Moved on to Remingtons which are flat where the firing pin hits and problems went away and have never come back in any of my SKB's.

I realize the Remingtons are more expensive, but with a SxS (I always load two) so if a problem occurs with a round it is a pretty severe penalty in your stage time so spending the extra money is well worth it for the confidence factor alone. I am certainly not the fastest with a shotgun but typically run 4.5-5 seconds for 4 and a bad round is at least a 2 second or more add to my time.

Regards

:FlagAm:  :FlagAm:  :FlagAm:

Gateway Kid

Everyone doesn’t ignore them, when using STS hulls (which is about all I use now) I only use Remington STS primers. If using Winchester AA hulls I use Winchester primers. Since I switched to SKB’s I have way to many FTF’s with the Winchester setup. I thought it might be just the primers but I loaded some STS hulls with Winchester primers to see and they all went off?


Randy

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14 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I haven't seen any around here for ions!

I got lucky a couple of months ago a a fellow Cowboy called and told me Midway had them. I was able to get online and order 1000 (all they would let me order) before they sold out. Cost me $117 delivered but if the opportunity arises I’d buy again at the same price. 
 

Randy

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49 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

Everyone doesn’t ignore them, when using STS hulls (which is about all I use now) I only use Remington STS primers. If using Winchester AA hulls I use Winchester primers. Since I switched to SKB’s I have way to many FTF’s with the Winchester setup. I thought it might be just the primers but I loaded some STS hulls with Winchester primers to see and they all went off?


Randy

Interesting that the primers/hull combination would be so consistent in terms of issues/non issues.

Thank you for your information/experience.

I use the gold Nitro 27 or green STS hulls exclusively with Remington STS primers as that is what was recommended to me when I bought my first SKB.

When I first started in CAS I did not (and had never) reloaded a shotgun shell. I shot Estate target loads or Winchester LNLR (known as featherlites back then) in one of several Stoegers. After being a bit rough on them (ok I broke them regularly:unsure:) I upgraded to SKB and started to roll my own. I had a ton of the red 1 piece hulls and a comfortable to make load (on a Sizemaster) but would have issues with the Federal 209 primers occasionally failing to fire until I ran into a deal on 6000 mixed Nitro and STS hulls at the trap club. Long story short guy I bought them from threw in 2000 Remington STS primers and have had zero issues since. Now reloading on a MEC 9000 GN. Gave away the red hulls bought a few cases of Remington primers, typically get 4-6 reloads, have bought a few hulls in the interim but see no reason to change a good thing.

YMMV

Regards

:FlagAm:  :FlagAm:  :FlagAm:

Gateway Kid

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