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Issue with pair of Ruger NMVs


July Smith
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Just picked these up, previous owner claims to be unaware of the issue and has already offered to cover any repair costs.  Please don’t turn this into a thread knocking the previous seller, just looking for advice on how to fix them.  
 

Both guns when you open the load gate lock up the cylinder.  The bolt retracts into the frame, but something else (hand?) is preventing the cylinder from turning.  Seeing as both guns have this issue I’m thinking somebody might have gotten a hold of them, taken them apart and then not put either one back together correctly.

 

BTW Cylinders are on the correct guns.

 

I’ll try to post a short video in a sec.  

Edited by July Smith
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Try removing the little detent pin that keeps the cylinder lined up for loading. It’s the little thing on the frame right next to the pawl opening. It may also be stuck as it is supposed to be spring loaded.

It can also be removed which may allow the cylinder to free spin. Doesn’t always work on all NMV.

Edited by Snake-eye, SASS#45097
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2 hours ago, July Smith said:

Please let me know if this video works or not.

IMG_5721.MOV

Good video! 

The gun looks very dry.

Put some oil on the pawl and only turn the cly clockwise.

X2 on the detent spring....

OLG 

Edited by The Original Lumpy Gritz
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I hate to beat a dead horse but have you actually matched the serial number on the cylinder to the frame?  Also, as previously noted, on a stock gun the cylinder will only rotate clockwise.

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Yes I verified that the numbers on the cylinder match the last three on the gun.  


I tried oiling the guns, yes they were very dry.

 

I am not seeing this little plunger some of you are talking about, just a hole in the frame.

 

I am used to Colts was just attempting to rotate the cylinder in any direction for the video.

 

Yes if I slightly pull back the hammer the cylinder will spin, but I’d need three hands to load/unload the gun that way.

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Again I’m not familiar with Vaqueros.  The stock pair I have are loaned out to a friend.  I may need to get them back so that I have something to compare them against.

 

D415061D-4BDA-4B25-8047-DBFA62877761.jpeg

B73F36D5-519D-4B60-A3CF-F1744164D03F.jpeg

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2 hours ago, July Smith said:

I am not seeing this little plunger some of you are talking about, just a hole in the frame.

 

In the bottom photo there is a little hole just to the left of the tip of the pawl.  That is where the plunger goes.  It has been removed.

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40 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

 

In the bottom photo there is a little hole just to the left of the tip of the pawl.  That is where the plunger goes.  It has been removed.

I watched a few YouTube videos...  I have one gun fully disassembled.  Can’t see anything obviously wrong.  The Pawl does not seem to retract far enough into the frame/recoil shield to allow the cylinder to freely rotate.  Does that little plunger that is apparently missing on my guns help push the pawl further into the frame?

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At this point don't worry about the cylinder rotating "freely".  The plunger was to keep the cylinder from rotating backwards.  On a lot of Rugers the "free spin" pawl is not installed correctly so even after the plunger is removed they will not rotate backwards.  The plunger engaged the ratchet teeth to hold the cylinder in the proper location for loading and unloading.  You need to worry about what is keeping the cylinder from turning clockwise.  The rachet teeth will push the pawl in when the cylinder is rotated clockwise and you get the clicks like you do on a Colt as the pawl moves over the ratchet teeth.  You need to find out what is binding the cylinder.  With the cylinder out and the hammer down and the gate open take a punch or screwdriver tip and push on the pawl.  It should push back under spring pressure.

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If you hold with the barrel pointed up does it function correctly.  My guess is that the pawl spring/plunger assembly is missing or trapped by the grip frame.  They are very easy to pinch during assembly or shoot across the room.  
 

The indexing pawl is different and only keeps the cylinder from reversing.  (Free spin mod)

Edited by Manchester
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16 minutes ago, Manchester said:

If you hold with the barrel pointed up does it function correctly.  My guess is that the pawl spring/plunger assembly is missing or trapped by the grip frame.  They are very easy to pinch during assembly or shoot across the room.  
 

The indexing pawl is different and only keeps the cylinder from reversing.  (Free spin mod)

No it doesn’t work with the barrel up and the load gate open.  All parts (aside from plunger as previously discussed) seem to be there.

CEA2DA8C-A723-4E22-B257-815F5056F1BC.jpeg

F7965ED5-CDD7-4F8B-A3CD-1B83F8B6854D.jpeg

B24B19BC-4692-4942-96CB-2AFBAB3A55FB.jpeg

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15 minutes ago, July Smith said:

No it doesn’t work with the barrel up and the load gate open.  All parts (aside from plunger as previously discussed) seem to be there.

CEA2DA8C-A723-4E22-B257-815F5056F1BC.jpeg

F7965ED5-CDD7-4F8B-A3CD-1B83F8B6854D.jpeg

B24B19BC-4692-4942-96CB-2AFBAB3A55FB.jpeg

The new vaquero pawl should have a tail. Those look like original Vaquero pawls.

8E746677-BD75-45F8-9196-47C1C26CD696.jpeg

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2 hours ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

The new vaquero pawl should have a tail. Those look like original Vaquero pawls.

8E746677-BD75-45F8-9196-47C1C26CD696.jpeg

I bet that's the problem.  I seem to remember a thread where someone stated that would cause the pawl to stick out farther.

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The same piece, the hand, and how it is positioned WRT the grip frame is what allows or fails to allow for the "free spin" feature when the stop, #32, is removed. 

 

I had an issue where the hand was bottoming on the grip frame and not letting the hammer fall completely. IMHO the engineering of these parts was rather poorly thought out. A bit of wear on the grip frame and the hand will stick out too far and stop the spin. 

 

I'd like to see a picture of the top of the grip frame, to see how the relief or ramp for the hand was cut. 

 

BB

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6 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

With the cylinder out and the hammer down and the gate open take a punch or screwdriver tip and push on the pawl.  It should push back under spring pressure.

Please see attached video.  BTW I really appreciate your input along with everyone else’s.

 

Would the best course of action simply be to return them to Ruger?

 

 

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This is one of those things where someone that knows Rugers could cock them a couple of times, open the gate and try to rotate the cylinder and diagnose the problem in ten seconds.  Guessing on the wire takes a lot longer.  The pawl really cannot stick out too far even if the tail is ground off since once the cylinder is installed the pawl and its spring are compresed by the ratchet and cannot move forward any more than the ratchet teeth will allow.  The primary issue seems to be not that the cylinder won't free spin or rotate backwards it is that it will not rotate clockwise.  It is amazing that the orignal owner claims not to have had this problem.  Earlier I suggested taking the cylinder out, fully lowering the hammer and trying to press the pawl inwards.  It should be spring loaded.  If it does not move it has for some reason bottomed out in the pawl slot.  Since the gun is now fully taken apart try this simple test.  Fully reassemble the gun and leave the pawl, plunger and spring OUT.  Put in the cylinder, close the gate and rotate the cylinder until it is locked.  Then open the gate.  Does the cylinder spin freely?  Is so the issue is with the pawl.  If not there is something else hanging up the cylinder.  If may be the pawl was replaced with an OMV pawl.  It has a slightly different geometry.  Removing the tail on the stock pawl should not effect operattion except it won't free spin.  I have ground the tails off several times to get rid of the hammer problem noted by Big Boston.

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3 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

I was posting while you were posting your video.  The pawl motion with the punch looks normal.  Try test two.  Remove it entirely and see what happens.

Fully assembled gun (-pawl) the cylinder spins freely both ways.

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Post a pic of the pawl plz. I don't see how the guns could be loaded in the normal way.

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OK, cylinder in and bolt/latch engaged.  Open gate and cylinder spins freely.  Correct?  I see most places are out of stock on pawls.  I can send you two NMV pawls and you can install them and see if they work.  If they do you can send me $15.00.  If they do not work you can send them back.  If that is OK let me know and I'll get them in the mail.

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24 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

OK, cylinder in and bolt/latch engaged.  Open gate and cylinder spins freely.  Correct?  I see most places are out of stock on pawls.  I can send you two NMV pawls and you can install them and see if they work.  If they do you can send me $15.00.  If they do not work you can send them back.  If that is OK let me know and I'll get them in the mail.

And that's what SASS is all about.  Good on ya Larsen  :)

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11 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

OK, cylinder in and bolt/latch engaged.  Open gate and cylinder spins freely.  Correct?  I see most places are out of stock on pawls.  I can send you two NMV pawls and you can install them and see if they work.  If they do you can send me $15.00.  If they do not work you can send them back.  If that is OK let me know and I'll get them in the mail.

Larson, I think most everyone in Texas would prefer July to keep shooting cap guns. We don’t need him shooting cartridge guns. The guy is FAST! so please retract your offer! 
 

seriously, thanks for helping him out. He is a good guy. 
 

 

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