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Live round on carrier or live round in the chamber?


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I was reading the wire and another thread reminded me of a question I had some time ago. Exactly what is the difference between a round in the chamber or round on the carrier of an OPEN action? Is just the tip of the bullet, half the case or the whole case a round in the chamber? Before making judgement think about it for just a sec. We have different type of rifles and shotguns in this game. I've seen out of batteries before in rifles, the whole case was clearly not in the rifle.

 

Generally speaking a round on the carrier in a 73 is enclosed and can't go anywhere other than in the chamber or stay on the carrier. Does it make any difference if the action is open? Now think about a Marlin or a 97 shotgun. You can leave a round on the carrier generally speaking if you lay the guns down ejection port up, with the action open. Most seasoned shooters always put the ejection port down on a Marlin or 97. It should eliminate or really diminish the possibility of leaving anything on the carrier of an open action, at least when you pick one of them up the empty or live round would be sitting where staged - not in the gun.

 

I've seen a Marlin end up at the unload table with a live round after it was placed ejection port side down on the firing line. One would think the rifle had to have the round in the chamber, otherwise the live round would have been on the table at the firing line. Nobody saw it though. Did it really make any difference? The penalties could be much different and the situation no safer.

 

Should a live round in an open action be viewed as anything other than a live round in an open action? 

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9 minutes ago, Cannon said:

I was reading the wire and another thread reminded me of a question I had some time ago. Exactly what is the difference between a round in the chamber or round on the carrier of an OPEN action? Is just the tip of the bullet, half the case or the whole case a round in the chamber? Before making judgement think about it for just a sec. We have different type of rifles and shotguns in this game. I've seen out of batteries before in rifles, the whole case was clearly not in the rifle.

 

Generally speaking a round on the carrier in a 73 is enclosed and can't go anywhere other than in the chamber or stay on the carrier. Does it make any difference if the action is open? Now think about a Marlin or a 97 shotgun. You can leave a round on the carrier generally speaking if you lay the guns down ejection port up, with the action open. Most seasoned shooters always put the ejection port down on a Marlin or 97. It should eliminate or really diminish the possibility of leaving anything on the carrier of an open action, at least when you pick one of them up the empty or live round would be sitting where staged - not in the gun.

 

I've seen a Marlin end up at the unload table with a live round after it was placed ejection port side down on the firing line. One would think the rifle had to have the round in the chamber, otherwise the live round would have been on the table at the firing line. Nobody saw it though. Did it really make any difference? The penalties could be much different and the situation no safer.

 

Should a live round in an open action be viewed as anything other than a live round in an open action? 

When you read the Rule Books what was your understanding?

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12 minutes ago, Cannon said:

I was reading the wire and another thread reminded me of a question I had some time ago.

Exactly what is the difference between a round in the chamber or round on the carrier of an OPEN action?

The difference is a SDQ vs a MSV penalty

 

Is just the tip of the bullet, half the case or the whole case a round in the chamber?

It is ANY PART of an unfired round in the chamber.

 

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I understand the difference in penalty.

 

Why? It's extremely subjective once the long gun has made it to the unload table.

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The safety of the situation would really be no different either. Whether the long gun was looked at closely on the firing line or not as well. As long as the action is open.

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3 hours ago, Cannon said:

 

I've seen a Marlin end up at the unload table with a live round after it was placed ejection port side down on the firing line. One would think the rifle had to have the round in the chamber, otherwise the live round would have been on the table at the firing line. Nobody saw it though. Did it really make any difference? The penalties could be much different and the situation no safer.

 

 

 

Extraction and Ejection are 2 separate actions.   A Marlin can Extract a round completely out of the chamber but if something is wrong

with its Ejector or a couple other situations, it won't always Eject the round or empty case.

 

..........Widder

 

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Hey Widder. From the one time I've seen this happen with a Marlin. It wasn't really a matter of extraction or ejection. Shooter just shot 9 rounds and set the rifle down on the ejection port. The only way it made it to the unload table was it just about had to be partially chambered. That's not really voo doo magic or anything. Not really my point either. The point I'm trying to understand is it could be a SDQ by perception or fact. It could also be a MSV if you aren't a hard ass.

 

Did safety really change either way? The action was open and the gun was restaged properly other than the live round. I don't understand why there is a difference in penalty if the action is open.

Edited by Cannon
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By the time an open action long gun is carried to the unloading table, with muzzles held upwards, it's going to be a real rare situation that any part of round is in chamber.   This then almost always gets called a Minor Safety penalty.  Shooter can then just move on. 

 

If shooter has trained themselves to glance at the action of the gun as it is lowered and restaged, even that MSV can be avoided.

 

The decisions about what the rules need to be to

1 -  protect safety of shooter and posse

2 - make it easy to call from just a split second of observation

were debated years ago and this rule has come from that.  If you feel this is still wrong, you can always bring it up with your TG and see if there is concern enough to discuss at a TG meeting.

 

Good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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I'd like to second @Cannon's logic: With a Winchester toggle link design (60, 66, 73) it makes technically and regarding safety absolutely no difference whether the round is in the carrier or (partially) in the chamber. If the lever gets closed the round is chambered under a cocked hammer in either way. So imho, the situation should be handled the same way - meaning no differentiation between gun left shooter's hand and can be corrected until next gun is fired - and should result in the same penalty. If there's a different rationale of looking at it (except "it's the current rule") I am happy to be enlightened.

 

4 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

If shooter has trained themselves to glance at the action of the gun as it is lowered and restaged, even that MSV can be avoided.

 I do that and I never restaged a rifle with a round in it (so far :ph34r:)

But if this would ever happen to me:

4 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

By the time an open action long gun is carried to the unloading table, with muzzles held upwards, it's going to be a real rare situation that any part of round is in chamber.   This then almost always gets called a Minor Safety penalty.

I am very confident that with my big chambers in my Uberti 73s the round had been slipped (at least partially) into the chamber while restaging on a flat surface and I would have earned the DQ after the rifle left my hand.

 

You can argue that the TO would/should have seen that round after restaging the rifle. He probably would have if the shooter only shot 9 instead of 10, but if he overloaded the rifle with 11 (which can happen in different ways) the chances are low(er).

 

Equanimous Phil

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Garrison Joe I understand what you are saying regarding the round not being in the chamber by the time the long gun is taken to the unload table. It actually falls right in line with my question though. You could have a really engaged RO and spotters that didn't get confused. They could stop the shooter from retrieving the long gun at the line. Then they could get a magnifying glass out to see if the tip is in or not. That happens sometimes. Mostly my experience is the round is found at the unload table. Folks get confused because something "wrong" happened. Shooter retrieves guns, heads to the table muzzles up and then there is discussion about what did or didn't happen. 

 

Both situations are the same regarding safety. There's a live round in the long gun and the action is open. The penalties are much different though. 

 

 

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I could probably clarify just a little more from the above.

 

There's a live round ready to go into battery in a long gun with the action open.

 

Whether the tip of the bullet is in the chamber or not doesn't change anything in safety that I can think of. I might be off on this and I'm trying to understand the difference in penalty.

 

 

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Any part of round in chamber is easy to spot WHEN SOMEONE LOOKS.   If no one looks at the line, and the first examination is at the unloading table, THEN YOU CALL WHAT IS SEEN THERE. 

 

It's really bad form to speculate on what could have happened at the line.   Leads to all sorts of arguments and "confusion".  Call what is seen, when it is seen.

 

good luck, GJ

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2 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Any part of round in chamber is easy to spot WHEN SOMEONE LOOKS.   If no one looks at the line, and the first examination is at the unloading table, THEN YOU CALL WHAT IS SEEN THERE. 

 

It's really bad form to speculate on what could have happened at the line.   Leads to all sorts of arguments and "confusion".  Call what is seen, when it is seen.

 

good luck, GJ

YES.    THIS ^

 

..........Widder

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2 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Any part of round in chamber is easy to spot WHEN SOMEONE LOOKS.   If no one looks at the line, and the first examination is at the unloading table, THEN YOU CALL WHAT IS SEEN THERE. 

 

It's really bad form to speculate on what could have happened at the line.   Leads to all sorts of arguments and "confusion".  Call what is seen, when it is seen.

 

good luck, GJ

Ok. I see what your saying. Still not 100% with you. How would someone look at a Marlin or a 97 without moving the long gun if it was set down with the ejection port down? 

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10 minutes ago, Cannon said:

Ok. I see what your saying. Still not 100% with you. How would someone look at a Marlin or a 97 without moving the long gun if it was set down with the ejection port down? 

 

BOD goes to the shooter

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10 minutes ago, Cannon said:

Ok. I see what your saying. Still not 100% with you. How would someone look at a Marlin or a 97 without moving the long gun if it was set down with the ejection port down? 

You turn it over and call what you see.

 

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I'm 100% with always give the shooter the benefit of the doubt. Basically the only gun I can think of looking at without disturbing is a 73. So why the difference in a live round partially chambered rather than just calling it a live round ready to go into battery in an open action?

 

To be clear I don't disagree with anything stated in this thread and I enjoy the rules! I actually have already had the argument in a drive back home with my shotgun riders from a match. I sided on the same points made by others here so far.

 

The only thing concerning to me is the difference in penalty. A SDQ for a tip or more as opposed to a MSV for a live round right in front of the chamber. It's still a live round ready to go off if the action is closed either way. 

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19 minutes ago, Cannon said:

 

The only thing concerning to me is the difference in penalty. A SDQ for a tip or more as opposed to a MSV for a live round right in front of the chamber. It's still a live round ready to go off if the action is closed either way. 

+1

Same safety issue which should result in same penalty

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19 minutes ago, Cannon said:

I'm 100% with always give the shooter the benefit of the doubt. Basically the only gun I can think of looking at without disturbing is a 73. So why the difference in a live round partially chambered rather than just calling it a live round ready to go into battery in an open action?

 

To be clear I don't disagree with anything stated in this thread and I enjoy the rules! I actually have already had the argument in a drive back home with my shotgun riders from a match. I sided on the same points made by others here so far.

 

The only thing concerning to me is the difference in penalty. A SDQ for a tip or more as opposed to a MSV for a live round right in front of the chamber. It's still a live round ready to go off if the action is closed either way. 

Because that's what was decided in the past and that's the way it is.

 

It may not be an answer you like, agree with or understand - but it is the answer.

 

No one here can tell you exactly why the decision was made years ago.

 

No one here is going to be able to explain it to you so that you accept it.

 

If you want to change it, then the process is to take up with your TG.

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4 minutes ago, Chief Rick said:

No one here can tell you exactly why the decision was made years ago.

If really no one here can tell the purpose of that differentiation in the ruling then the horse might not be dead... :P

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Idk. The whole that decision was made years ago deal. If it was too many years ago, the action HAD to be open on a long gun when set down....

 

There's room to question this I think. Things get changed at times and I don't think it's bad to challenge the status quo either. 

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Without digging through all of the WB, TG, and ROC archived discussions on related issues, it basically comes down to having rules/penalties that can be applied to all types and models of long guns used in competition without variations dependent on action type (e.g. 1897 vs SxS shotguns or 1866/73 vs 1894 rifles).

A number of proposals to change and/or eliminate established safety protocols have failed over the past years (although a few have been modified).

 

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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47 minutes ago, Cannon said:

Idk. The whole that decision was made years ago deal. If it was too many years ago, the action HAD to be open on a long gun when set down....

 

There's room to question this I think. Things get changed at times and I don't think it's bad to challenge the status quo either. 

There is definitely room to question - but sometimes there isn't anyone around to answer the question.  And continuously asking the same question is going to get you the same answer - but no change.

 

It seems to me you want the outcome for both situations to be the same.  Continuing to ask the question of "why is it like this" is not going to get it to change.  The only way to get the change is to get it before the TGs and submitted for a rule change.

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If the shooter loads the correct number of rounds and fires the correct number of rounds there should never be a live round anywhere in the rifle. We all like to have faster times but we are responsible to insure the rifle is empty when we are done with it. If I don't hear the appropriate number of discharges I personally run the lever again and check the chamber before laying it down. 

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2 hours ago, Cannon said:

I'm 100% with always give the shooter the benefit of the doubt. Basically the only gun I can think of looking at without disturbing is a 73. So why the difference in a live round partially chambered rather than just calling it a live round ready to go into battery in an open action?

 

To be clear I don't disagree with anything stated in this thread and I enjoy the rules! I actually have already had the argument in a drive back home with my shotgun riders from a match. I sided on the same points made by others here so far.

 

The only thing concerning to me is the difference in penalty. A SDQ for a tip or more as opposed to a MSV for a live round right in front of the chamber. It's still a live round ready to go off if the action is closed either way. 

Im so confused by this post, I think your asking why the penalties are what they are....The simple answer....ITS THE RULES....If you think they should be different, either change them or move on....Its that simple....

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10 minutes ago, COLORADO JACKSON said:

Im so confused by this post, I think your asking why the penalties are what they are....The simple answer....ITS THE RULES....If you think they should be different, either change them or move on....Its that simple....

But didn't you read - that's not a good enough answer!:blush:

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Ok. I'm actually done questioning this one here. It's nothing I'm losing sleep over or anything. I've not had the MDQ called on me or anything to this point. I've earned some calls in the past! Just not this one. I figured this was a good place to question it before actually asking a TG to bring it up. I thought there would be a solid reason I'm missing. I just haven't seen it to this point.

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4 minutes ago, Cannon said:

Ok. I'm actually done questioning this one here. It's nothing I'm losing sleep over or anything. I've not had the MDQ called on me or anything to this point. I've earned some calls in the past! Just not this one. I figured this was a good place to question it before actually asking a TG to bring it up. I thought there would be a solid reason I'm missing. I just haven't seen it to this point.

I'm really not trying to sound like a smart @$$, but you probably won't get a solid reason.  It's been this way for a while and the people involved are not here (on this forum, or even physically still with us) to answer exactly why.

 

If PWB can't answer it satisfactorily, I doubt anyone can.

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The basic reasoning behind safety penalties, as I recall from very early meetings amongst the Wild Bunch, is that anything 2 or less  steps from a weapon firing was a stage disqualification.  A round in the chamber was 1 - close the bolt, 2 - pull the trigger.  A round on the carrier, regardless of where the carrier was 3 steps, and would be a MSV...   And my understanding of it may not have been perfect then, less so now.  And these have all changed somewhat in the interim. 

 

If you look at the definition of what constitutes an "open" action, and look at what constitutes a round in the chamber, you'll note the similarity.  The LEAST little bit open, is open;  the least little bit in, is in.  

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