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Order is rifle, pistol, shotgun. 5 targets for p and r. Engage rifle targets in a single tap sweep from either direction and then repeat from the same direction. Repeat rifle instructions for pistols. SG engage kd any order.

 

1st shooter shoots rifle 1,2,3,4, jacks out 5th round, then hits target 1,2,3,4,5. Hits pistols and SG correctly. WTC

 

2nd shooter fires rifle correctly. Then hits target 1,2,3,4 with 1st revolver and holsters. 2nd revolver hits targets 1,2,3,4,5. Then, shoots SG correctly. WTC

 

3rd shooter fires rifle correctly. Then hits target 1,2,3,4 and his pistol locks up. He declares it and grounds it. Then hits target 1,2,3,4,5 with the 2nd revolver. Then does SG correctly. WTC

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2 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

Order is rifle, pistol, shotgun. 5 targets for p and r. Engage rifle targets in a single tap sweep from either direction and then repeat from the same direction. Repeat rifle instructions for pistols. SG engage kd any order.

 

1st shooter shoots rifle 1,2,3,4, jacks out 5th round, then hits target 1,2,3,4,5. Hits pistols and SG correctly. WTC

Miss for the unfired round

If rifle shots 1,2,3,4, are hits, then a miss for the jacked out round.... Shooter could have reloaded that 5th round before going on to the second sweep.

Shooter also could have shot 1-2-3-4 (jack out), 5-1-2-3-4 (reload) 5

 

Quote

2nd shooter fires rifle correctly. Then hits target 1,2,3,4 with 1st revolver and holsters. 2nd revolver hits targets 1,2,3,4,5. Then, shoots SG correctly. WTC

Miss for the unfired round and long as the shooter didn't holster a cocked pistol.  Then a P, not for the Miss, but because of the 5th shot on 1 instead of 5.  R.O. should have caught it, but sometimes shooters are too fast.  The shooter had until the next pistol was cocked to correct the problem.

 

 

Quote

3rd shooter fires rifle correctly. Then hits target 1,2,3,4 and his pistol locks up. He declares it and grounds it. Then hits target 1,2,3,4,5 with the 2nd revolver. Then does SG correctly. WTC

Again, Miss for the unfired round.  In the event of the declared malfunction there is no P, just misses for not hitting 5

Shooter could have fired 1-2-3-4 (ground gun) 5-1-2-3-4, (reload 2nd pistol) 5 to avoid the misses.  The amount of time taken varies with practice.  I watched Matt Black do a pistol reload and still win the stage with the fastest time. 

 

 

Edited by McCandless
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19 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Order is rifle, pistol, shotgun. 5 targets for p and r. Engage rifle targets in a single tap sweep from either direction and then repeat from the same direction. Repeat rifle instructions for pistols. SG engage kd any order.

 

1st shooter shoots rifle 1,2,3,4, jacks out 5th round, then hits target 1,2,3,4,5. Hits pistols and SG correctly. WTC

 

2nd shooter fires rifle correctly. Then hits target 1,2,3,4 with 1st revolver and holsters. 2nd revolver hits targets 1,2,3,4,5. Then, shoots SG correctly. WTC

 

3rd shooter fires rifle correctly. Then hits target 1,2,3,4 and his pistol locks up. He declares it and grounds it. Then hits target 1,2,3,4,5 with the 2nd revolver. Then does SG correctly. WTC

 

Jeez TN, How many times did you shoot that stage?B)

 

The call for all three shooters is 1 unfired round = 5 second penalty each (assuming that #2's pistol did not have the hammer back in any fashion and hammer was down on a fired round).

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HWTC = Hoodoo What's The Call B)

 

Kajun

 

 

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14 minutes ago, McCandless said:

 

 

 

Were all those targets engaged in the correct order?

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13 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

Jeez TN, How many times did you shoot that stage?B)

 

The call for all three shooters is 1 unfired round = 5 second penalty each (assuming that #2's pistol did not have the hammer back in any fashion and hammer was down on a fired round).

Ha! I've done 2 of them, but I ain't saying which 2! 

All 3 calls aren't the same...

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Ok.. :huh: I must be wrong in my thinkin' but..

Why is there not a "P" called on all three scenarios 

for not following the 1-2-3-4-5 for the first sequence??

and yes.. :mellow: I see a miss for only shooting 9 rounds..

but the miss didn't cause the P?? Each shooter shot it out of sequence??

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' I must be Thinkin' wrong :wacko:

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Rance - SASS # 54090 said:

Ok.. :huh: I must be wrong in my thinkin' but..

Why is there not a "P" called on all three scenarios 

for not following the 1-2-3-4-5 for the first sequence??

and yes.. :mellow: I see a miss for only shooting 9 rounds..

but the miss didn't cause the P?? Each shooter shot it out of sequence??

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' I must be Thinkin' wrong :wacko:

 

 

1st scenario he jacked the rifle round out on the 5th shot. That counts as engaging the target. I'm patiently awaiting PWB or branchwater on the 3rd one.

Edited by Tennessee williams

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15 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

1st scenario he jacked the rifle round out on the 5th shot. That counts as engaging the target. I am patiently awaiting PWB or branchwater on the 3rd one.

 

1) I have never seen/ heard of  a jacked out rifle round called 

as "engaging the target"?? It was Shooter error..

To me.. Shooter should have finished 1-2-3-4-5- sequence 

and then second sweep 1-2-3-4-reload or take the miss..

Rance;)

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31 minutes ago, Rance - SASS # 54090 said:

 

1) I have never seen/ heard of  a jacked out rifle round called 

as "engaging the target"?? It was Shooter error..

To me.. Shooter should have finished 1-2-3-4-5- sequence 

and then second sweep 1-2-3-4-reload or take the miss..

Rance;)

 

http://www.oowss.com/SASS Rules Docs/Reload choices (edit Aug 2018).pdf

 

Quote

A shooter who ejects a rifle round in the middle of a shooting string has FOUR choices:

1) Re-engage same target; then reload at the end of the string for the last target = No Penalty

2) Re-engage same target w/NO reload = Miss for the ejected (unfired) round

3) Skip to next target w/NO reload = Miss

4) Skip to next target w/reload/return to re-engage skipped target = Procedural

 

Engaged – attempting to fire a round at the target. SHB - Glossary of Terms

 

Levering the rifle (ejecting a round) is considered "engaging" under this definition as it applies to the above listed options.

 

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854
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Runs 1 and 3  ARE INDEED "1 Miss"

 

Read the reference material BJ cited above.  

 

Run 2 will depend on more details about whether the shooter engaged the 5th target on the first sweep.  If he dropped the hammer or made enough of an effort to get the gun pointed at the target and tried to pull the trigger, he ENGAGED the target.  Even if he did not declare a malfunctioning gun, he still ENGAGED the target.   But if he went directly to holster after firing 4 shots, he did not engage with that revolver.  By skipping over the 5th target when starting the second sweep on target 1 without trying to engage target 5 on the first sweep, he earns a P.  By not firing a round that he was supposed to fire, he earns a "round not fired" - which is scored as a miss.   So it depends upon how he "failed to engage" target 5.   If he just forgot, then it's a P and a Miss.

 

This particular "tricky to call" situation is why I have long felt that ENGAGEMENT should be decided by "when the bullet leaves the barrel," instead of having to keep an eagle eye on what the shooter did that can or cannot be considered an ENGAGEMENT of target.   

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

PS

Engaged definition in the Shooter's Handbook:

Quote

Engaged – attempting to fire a round at the target.

 

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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12 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Runs 1 and 3  ARE INDEED "1 Miss"

 

Read the reference material BJ cited above.  

 

Run 2 will depend on more details about whether the shooter engaged the 5th target on the first sweep.  If he dropped the hammer or made enough of an effort to get the gun pointed at the target and tried to pull the trigger, he ENGAGED the target.  Even if he did not declare a malfunctioning gun, he still ENGAGED the target.   But if he went directly to holster after firing 4 shots, he did not engage with that revolver.  By skipping over the 5th target when starting the second sweep on target 1 without trying to engage target 5 on the first sweep, he earns a P.  By not firing a round that he was supposed to fire, he earns a "round not fired" - which is scored as a miss.   So it depends upon how he "failed to engage" target 5.   If he just forgot, then it's a P and a Miss.

 

This particular "tricky to call" situation is why I have long felt that ENGAGEMENT should be decided by "when the bullet leaves the barrel," instead of having to keep an eagle eye on what the shooter did that can or cannot be considered an ENGAGEMENT of target.   

 

Good luck, GJ

Good call Joe. As stated on 1 the shooter engaged the rifle target when he jacked the round. As stated on 3, the shooter engaged the 5th target or he wouldnt know the pistol locked up.

No info given on 2 to suggest the shooter engaged the 5th target. I'm guilty of that one by the way.

 

What I'd like to clear up is if the shooter declares a pistol as broken, can he ship the targets for the remaining rounds in the pistol and go right to the next one without penalty.

I.e. on the same scenario but pistol locks up after the 2nd round. So shooter engages targets 1 and 2, then gun locks up on target 3. (He has engaged targets 1,2,3 but not 4 and 5). 

Shooter can start on target 3,4,5,1,2 and reload for 3,4,5 if he chooses.

But, if he doesnt do that and instead with the 2nd pistol shoot targets 1,2,3,4,5 does he get a P for not engaging targets 4,5 the first go around?

Edited by Tennessee williams

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2 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Hypotheticalizations... :blink:

There's a point behind my madness as already realized above.:ph34r:

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1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

What I'd like to clear up is if the shooter declares a pistol as broken, can he skip the targets for the remaining rounds in the pistol and go right to the next one without penalty.

I.e. on the same scenario but pistol locks up after the 2nd round. So shooter engages targets 1 and 2, then gun locks up on target 3. (He has engaged targets 1,2,3 but not 4 and 5). 

Shooter can start on target 3,4,5,1,2 and reload for 3,4,5 if he chooses.

But, if he doesnt do that and instead with the 2nd pistol shoot targets 1,2,3,4,5 does he get a P for not engaging targets 4,5 the first go around?

 

The ROC has ruled on this several times.   A malfunctioning revolver is considered just like "jacking out" rifle round.   It's a malfunction, but can be fixed (by using the revolver in the other holster).  You have the same options that are listed in the "Reload Choices" document that is listed above. 

 

Starting with when the shooter pulls his second revolver, he can -

1) Pickup #3, #4 and #5 targets he could not engage with first pistol (finishing 1st sweep); shoot part of second sweep, then reload second pistol at the end of the string for the last 3 targets = No Penalty

 

2) Pickup #3, #4 and #5 target(s) he could not engage with first pistol; shoot #1 and #2 on second sweep but NO reload = 3 Misses for the unfired rounds

 

3) (If shooter had made an engagement attempt on all three of the first-sweep-targets) Skip to #1 target of second sweep w/NO reloads = 3 Misses for unfired rounds

 

4) (If shooter had made an engagement attempt on all three of the first-sweep-targets) Skip to #1 target of second sweep w/reload to shoot second sweep; THEN reload 3 and return to re-engage the skipped targets = Procedural (only for the last 3 shots on targets out of order) (but no misses)

 

It gets real tricky when trying to do anything but the "recovery method #1" - mostly being convincing enough to "have engaged" all the first sweep of targets!

 

(A simpler definition of ENGAGEMENT could make it easier to call correctly, of course.)

 

TW - Did I get to the same conclusion you did?

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

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Making sure the shooter uses Recovery Method 1 is why, when I am ROing, I tell a shooter (if they ask or hesitate when trying to get going again after a revolver malfunction) to SHOOT THE (JUST ATTEMPTED) TARGET - STAYING IN CORRECT ORDER!   Then they can decide to reload 3 or not when they get all of 1st sweep and 2 targets of 2nd sweep "engaged." 

 

Say -

"Third target" or

"You are on #3 of first sweep"

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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26 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

 

TW - Did I get to the same conclusion you did?

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Well I know we agree on most of it. I'm still not sure on part.

Shooter with 1st pistol engages and hits targets 1,2,gun locks up. He declares and grounds it. Draws 2nd pistol and engages and hits targets 1,2,3,4,5 for the 2nd half of the sweep.

Targets 4 and 5 were technically never engaged. Is the shooter allowed to not engage the unengaged targets because there was a gun malfunction and get 3 misses or does the shooter still have to engage all the targets in the correct order and receive a P and 3 misses?

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Well, as you say, if #4 and 5 are not engaged by attempting to fire rounds at them,  I think if you skip them while recovering with the second revolver you are going to earn a P for not engaging targets in correct order.  Official rulings may follow, but I believe you need to engage targets in correct order.   I don't think there is a "get out of the Procedural free" card issued for a revolver malfunction. 

 

So, I'd follow recovery method #1 for sure in that case.  Thus protecting yourself from the "winds of uncertainty" that sometimes blow after such a situation on a stage.  ^_^

 

Good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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2 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Well, as you say, if #4 and 5 are not engaged by attempting to fire rounds at them,  I think if you skip them while recovering with the second revolver you are going to earn a P for not engaging targets in correct order.  Official rulings may follow, but I believe you need to engage targets in correct order.   I don't think there is a "get out of the Procedural free" card issued for a revolver malfunction. 

 

So, I'd follow recovery method #1 for sure in that case.  Thus protecting yourself from the "winds of uncertainty" that sometimes blow after such a situation on a stage.  ^_^

 

Good luck, GJ

Joe, that's my thinking too. I'd sure like to hear something official on it.

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PWB usually likes to let em go a few pages before he gets to em.

I think he likes to watch the train wrecks. He's like that ya know... :P

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3 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

PWB usually likes to let em go a few pages before he gets to em.

I think he likes to watch the train wrecks. He's like that ya know... :P

Care to comment your direction, or do you not want to board the train at all?

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Is it faster to Chicago or by train???

 

Actually, I really do appreciate your inquiries. This actually does help with ROs that are not sure. (I can be one of those too)

"Engaged" to me means attempted. Failure to fire, malfunction, ejected round, whatever. But if you just skip em, seems like it would be a P.

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That was covered in the first few posts on THIS THREAD.
Shooter "attempted to fire rounds" but the firearm malfunction prevented doing so.
IMO, that counts as "engaging", same as a "dud" round, ejected round, percussion cap falling off, etc. (as noted in the "Reload Choices" doc)

 

Not the same as a shooter holstering a functional revolver with rounds remaining (for whatever reason).

 

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Not quite the same as that other thread, because this is a 2-sweeps stage, which requires engaging in order to avoid a P.  (The other was a round count stage).  

 

A simple question that captures the uncertainty that remains might be:

 

Does a malfunction of the revolver when attempting to fire at target 3 of a sweep relieve the shooter of the requirements to engage the remaining 2 unengaged targets (4 and 5, which would have been expected to be shot with that malfunctioning revolver) before starting a second sweep?   Or does the malfunction only count for engaging target 3, thus requiring second revolver to engage 4 and 5 before starting second sweep?

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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13 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Not quite the same as that other thread, because this is a 2-sweeps stage, which requires engaging in order to avoid a P.  (The other was a round count stage).  

 

A simple question that captures the uncertainty that remains might be:

 

Does a malfunction of the revolver when attempting to fire at target 3 of a sweep relieve the shooter of the requirements to engage the remaining 2 unengaged targets (4 and 5, which would have been expected to be shot with that malfunctioning revolver) before starting a second sweep?   Or does the malfunction only count for engaging target 3, thus requiring second revolver to engage 4 and 5 before starting second sweep?

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

Thank you. I just need you to ask all my questions for me.

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13 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

I just need you to ask all my questions for me.

I doubt that.   :lol:  

 

You discovered this in the first place. You've got a tremendous amount of insight in all your discussions.   Keep them coming!

Good luck, GJ

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6 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

Good call Joe. As stated on 1 the shooter engaged the rifle target when he jacked the round. As stated on 3, the shooter engaged the 5th target or he wouldnt know the pistol locked up.

No info given on 2 to suggest the shooter engaged the 5th target. I'm guilty of that one by the way.

 

What I'd like to clear up is if the shooter declares a pistol as broken, can he ship the targets for the remaining rounds in the pistol and go right to the next one without penalty.

I.e. on the same scenario but pistol locks up after the 2nd round. So shooter engages targets 1 and 2, then gun locks up on target 3. (He has engaged targets 1,2,3 but not 4 and 5). 

Shooter can start on target 3,4,5,1,2 and reload for 3,4,5 if he chooses.

But, if he doesnt do that and instead with the 2nd pistol shoot targets 1,2,3,4,5 does he get a P for not engaging targets 4,5 the first go around?

no,,, pistols are five shots each,,, not a single 10 shot run.. miss only

 

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1 hour ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

no,,, pistols are five shots each,,, not a single 10 shot run.. miss only

 

SHB page 45.

 

Shooting string – shots from one type of firearm prior to use of the next type of firearm engaged.

 

Randy

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1 hour ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

no,,, pistols are five shots each,,, not a single 10 shot run.. miss only

 

Incorrect. The shooting string is all shots from like firearms shot before another type firearm or something like that.

 

Nevermind. Randy beats me at posting too:D

Edited by Tennessee williams
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5 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Incorrect. The shooting string is all shots from like firearms shot before another type firearm or something like that.

 

Nevermind. Randy beats me at posting too:D

HahaHahaHaha

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so,, any time a round is left in a pistol,, it's not only a miss BUT a P also?    nay nay

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27 minutes ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

so,, any time a round is left in a pistol,, it's not only a miss BUT a P also?    nay nay

 

Don't think so in this scenario..

If the shooter had shot first sequence as he did...

first pistol 1-2-3-4 and with second pistol shot 5-1-2-3-4..

it would be a miss only.. No P.. For missing #5 on last sequence..

He might even had been able to also pull his first pistol back out

and shoot target #5 to complete his last sequence and been clean

if he had realized he had left an unfired round in his first pistol..

 

Rance ;)

Just my Thinkin mind ya..

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28 minutes ago, Rance - SASS # 54090 said:

 

Don't think so in this scenario..

If the shooter had shot first sequence as he did...

first pistol 1-2-3-4 and with second pistol shot 5-1-2-3-4..

it would be a miss only.. No P.. For missing #5 on last sequence..

He might even had been able to also pull his first pistol back out

and shoot target #5 to complete his last sequence and been clean

if he had realized he had left an unfired round in his first pistol..

 

Rance ;)

Just my Thinkin mind ya..

You are exactly correct by my thinking.

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