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1 hour ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

 If  folks here and at SASS want to pick apart the survey methodology, rather than consider those 130 peoples' input,  they certainly are free to do so.

Go for it! 

You have the record for the longest post without getting anything said. 

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24 minutes ago, Warden Callaway said:

Well, I got 2 likes and 1 thanks. On ballance,  considering my few words,  I did good. 

I don't think I got any. 

I guess I'm one of those Deplorables.   

Good 'nuff for me.   

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1 hour ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I don't think I got any. 

I guess I'm one of those Deplorables.   

Good 'nuff for me.   

For one I think its just that you were perceived as accepting a few vocal peoples opinions as the voice of the silent majority. I don't believe that is the case. Everyone is entitled to there own opinion but that doesn't make it gospel. 

A lot of what some people see as our sport dying out is simply a matter of demographics, people age, retire, move to places where the living may be easier. In the last year we have had people move here from the north, the east coast and other places. Those are just people I know.

kR

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3 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

WOW,

Creeker's got 34 'Likes' and 10 'Thanks' outa 2 post.

 

I don't think I ever got that many in a week ..... maybe even a month.....  :lol:

 

..........Widder

 

 

That kinda sounds like a survey! ;) 

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I like it when people get to the point quickly, so:

  1. The survey was fun to take, read, and talk about. Was it scientific, who cares, it was interesting and thought provoking. Get out of it what you will.
  2. Life is variety and change. The Wild West, the Cowboy Way, and the Westward Migration were a short period of time and in many ways, totally misrepresented. 
  3. What I love about our Cowboy Action Shooting is the Spirit of the West, the firearms of kid's dreams, and the fun environment surrounding matches. 
  4. I want to make it better by being helpful, safe, and respectful. That is what I find to be true with 95% of the shooters.
  5. When the best skilled shooters can laugh about a P or miss with the slowpokes like me, and then Count or Brass with the others, good things happen and it's fun.

Just my thoughts, but then I always try to find the best in people and things I participate in.

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19 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Seems to come and go; but every so often, (like now, with two different threads running); the wire gets on a roll about leaving SASS or pining for the so called good ole days.

 

And I fully understand, interests change and apparently NOTHING is as good now as it was 20, 30 or however many years ago.

 

But if you read through the posts without the knee jerk reflex of "Please don't leave...  We will miss you...  etc.".

The posts mostly boil down to I don't want to play anymore because of how OTHERS play the game.

 

I don't get that.

How does someone else playing the game in their preferred method affect your enjoyment?

 

I see complaints about shooters being too into competition and using non stock guns.

So I assume the shooter is disappointed that they are not able/ no longer able to win; but NO, in the next breath, the shooter claims to have no interest in their placement.

 

I don't get that.

If you don't care about placements or awards - then how does another shooters competitive juices or choice of equipment affect your enjoyment?

 

I see complaints about target placements and size being too close or too easy. 

But the shooter doesn't state or mention any efforts of how they have modified their own behaviors to adjust, (shoot nothing but head shots, create one bullet splat groups, engage rifle targets with their pistols, etc.)

 

I don't get that.

If you don't care about awards or category placements AND you have the option to create your own challenges - how does anyone else performance affect your enjoyment?

 

I lied; I do get it.

Many (not all) of these posts are NOT simple announcements of tiring of the game or changing attitudes within the game; but basically threats that unless EVERYONE is shooting the game I want to play, (and only in the manner I want to play it) - I won't play anymore.

 

Games change.

Culture changes.

Participation within any interest ebbs and flows.

 

You adjust if you love it - you leave if you don't.

 

The only person responsible for your challenge, enjoyment or fun at a match is you. 

If your enjoyment is tied to someone elses action, performance or efforts then perhaps moving on is best.

 

The whole idea of the cowboy is rugged individualism; self sufficiency and the ability to adapt.

 

Take that attitude to the match; if the match doesn't provide the challenge you require - create it for yourself.

If another's equipment offends you; ignore it.

 

I hate to see anyone leave a game that I love; but if you wish to stay, you will have to find your own reasons to play and if you wish to leave...

 

Well, bye.

 

 

Creeker,

 

I appreciate you comments and want to suggest, "the only person responsible for your challenge, enjoyment or fun at a match is you." needs some qualifiers.  Sometimes it takes others to help certain people open up and loose their timidity or shyness. That's where the regular shooters can step in and help make it inviting and less fearful. Sure, it still depends on the person, but that boost really does make a huge difference.  When I first started shooting just last June, it was the shooters in the posse who made me feel comfortable and encouraged about getting involved. Those same people are the ones I go to for suggestions about improvement and who come to me and point out things that are borderline rule compliant in my gear or shooting style.

 

 

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20 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I see complaints about shooters being too into competition and using non stock guns.

So I assume the shooter is disappointed that they are not able/ no longer able to win; but NO, in the next breath, the shooter claims to have no interest in their placement.

 

I see this all the time, posted here and in other forums... I  have to ask them, "Why?  What is what someone else is using, affecting the way you play the game"??   If what they say is true, "no interest in their placement".  Then they are just looking for something to kvetch about and need to find some lone pursuit, like stamp collecting.  Because no matter what "competitive" game they play, there will always be folks "into competition"... because... well... it is a competition.  No, I don't get it at all.

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I’ve been referenced in this post so guess I’ll reply.

 

Never said I was going to quit because of modifications to guns, targets too close or any other reason. Like slicked up guns as much as anyone.

 

Do think we should have a variety on target placement and stage design. The in your face Bordertown targets are occasionally fun but all the time gets boring to “ME”. Not speaking for anyone else. To say I should shoot head targets at these matches to increase my fun isn’t realistic. I’m a competitor and want to compare my skill set to other competitors. To do this everyone needs to shoot the same targets.

 

To say a stage was unfair because there was a miss-able target on it is a head shaker. I’ll never get that one if everyone shoots the same target.

 

Before anyone jumps me, I think the average stage should be set around the SASS minimums with some closer and some out a little more. Maybe a mix of all three on one stage. Also vary the heights and distance between targets. Add some movement but don’t make it a track meet. Occasionally carry a bag of gold from beginning to last station. It makes for interesting gun transitions. Have a clay bird popper with an optional stationary target for makeup if missed to preserve a clean match.

 

The old days with 25-35 yard rifle targets and 10-15 yard pistol targets are gone and I haven’t missed them. A lot of those targets were 12-14 inches. Nor have I missed the SG targets you had to see color on the bottom to be counted as a hit. Always wanted the shortest counters for that one. :-)

 

This is an action shooting sport. As such, variety makes it entertainment to “ME”.

 

Long Hunter

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13 minutes ago, Long Hunter SASS #20389L said:

1. Never was going to quit because of modifications to guns, targets too close or any other reason. Like slicked up guns as much as anyone.

 

 

2. I Do think we should have a variety on target placement and stage design. The in your face Bordertown targets are occasionally fun but all the time gets boring to “ME”. Not speaking for anyone else.

 

3. To say I should shoot head targets at these matches to increase my fun isn’t realistic. I’m a competitor and want to compare my skill set to other competitors. To do this everyone needs to shoot the same targets.

 

4. To say a stage was unfair because there was a miss-able target on it is a head shaker. I’ll never get that one if everyone shoots the same target.

 

5. Before anyone jumps me, I think the average stage should be set around the SASS minimums with some closer and some out a little more. Maybe a mix of all three on one stage. Also vary the heights and distance between targets. Add some movement but don’t make it a track meet.

 

6. Occasionally carry a bag of gold from beginning to last station. It makes for interesting gun transitions. Have a clay bird popper with an optional stationary target for makeup if missed to preserve a clean match.

 

The old days with 25-35 yard rifle targets and 10-15 yard pistol targets are gone and I haven’t missed them. A lot of those targets were 12-14 inches. Nor have I missed the SG targets you had to see color on the bottom to be counted as a hit. Always wanted the shortest counters for that one. :-)

 

This is an action shooting sport. As such, variety makes it entertainment to “ME”.

 

Long Hunter

I numbered Long Hunters responses so I could address each clearly. 

And I appreciate his replying because that offers opportunity to address a few misconceptions being perpetuated.

 

I will preface this by stating that I do not personally know Long Hunter beyond you tube videos and minor wire interactions - so please do not take anything I'm saying as being supported or believed by him.

 

1.  Long Hunter has been and continues to be a respected ambassador for CAS; I don't believe anyone was implying he was leaving this game for ANY reason - much less because of anyone elses idea of fun.

 

2.  Long Hunter has never made any secret of his preferences for match setup or target arrays.  I may disagree with him on some specifics or boredom levels; but he has EARNED his right to have a voice and can intelligently convey why his has his opinion.

 

3.  I would NEVER expect a competitor to start taking head shots while their competition utilized the entire target.  But my op specifically referenced the supposed shooter who claims to not care about competition or category placements and the POSSIBLE options they could use to make the game more challenging/ interesting to themself.

 

4.  As long as everyone shoots the same match; the same targets, the same orders. 

There is no UNFAIR target - whether far or close, small or large.  But unfair and UNFUN are two very different discussions.

 

5.  Everyone has a preference for tv shows, cars, vacation spots or snack foods.  But like Firefly, Edsels, Puerto Rico and Pork Rind flavored Doritos; opinions vary on the quality and current desirability of each.  Matches ultimately surrender to market forces and trends.  And we should all lobby for a return of what we love; but not by pouting, stamping our feet and threatening to pick up our toys and leave.  I have never seen any indication from Long Hunter that this is his methodology to implement change.

 

6.  It is called COWBOY for reasons beyond silly clothing and antique guns.  I am a firm believer in the inclusion of UNIVERSAL skill activities (carry the gold bag, stab the dummy, open the jail door, etc.) As they add flavor and additional movement and staging options beyond hands on hat or guns.  I am just as adamantly against home field advantage or inclusion of non universal skills that benefit a subset - throw the knife/ tomahawk, perform a task practiced locally, unknown to others.

 

There is a misconception that those who prefer a certain game are unwilling to play any other.  It is patently untrue.  As I said; we all have preferences - but most of us understand SASS is a big tent experience and there is opportunity to find a game within our game to satisfy most.  And even to modify the game to suit yourself if you desire something different or care not for scoresheets and placements.

I simply lack patience with the posters that have no solution beyond "If everyone won't play MY way - I don't want to play"

 

 

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Well said Creeker. There's not a thing you said I would disagree with. We all have our preferences but we're all individuals and there's nothing wrong with that. It would be a boring world if everyone agreed on everything.

 

Like you, get a little tired of the people saying they're not competitive and then complain about those that are. I'll come out of the closet, I'm competitive and enjoy every minute of it. But that doesn't take away from my fun when someone else isn't. There are many examples over the years where the fun non-competitive shooters have made my match enjoyable and had me belly laughing at times. Love to shoot with those truly fun people. But they're very few people that way. Most just use the "I'm Not Competitive" phrase to make themselves feel better.

 

The one thing I think most of these people miss, is no one really cares if they're good or not. Just have fun and be supportive of the other people you interact with on the posse. You'll be respected for your actions, not your stage times. No one really cares about stage times except for the people shooting them. :-)

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I'm going to toss out an anecdote to support the recent exchange between Long Hunter and Creeker (both of whom I agree with). 

 

A bit over a year ago I took my son to an annual match for one of the local clubs.  After he shot the last stage, he saw the MD starting to pack up while the other posse's were finishing up.  He asked if he could go help, of course I said yes. 

 

Later they were finishing up during awards.  When my son's name was called for his award, he didn't notice as he was putting away a heavy shotgun target.  Everyone turned to look for/at him.  When my son found out he won an award, he put the target away and hurried up to collect it.

 

When we were on the way home, I asked him what the most important thing was.  Of course, he said "winning my category".  I responded with "will anyone remember that in 2 weeks?"  He got quiet and said no.  I asked him what they will remember.  He said "that I was helping to pack up during awards."  That was an important lesson.

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That’s a good boy you’ve got there, Doc. See you Sunday at Yolo?

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9 minutes ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

That’s a good boy you’ve got there, Doc. See you Sunday at Yolo?

 

That’s the plan!

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1 hour ago, Doc Shapiro said:

I'm going to toss out an anecdote to support the recent exchange between Long Hunter and Creeker (both of whom I agree with). 

 

A bit over a year ago I took my son to an annual match for one of the local clubs.  After he shot the last stage, he saw the MD starting to pack up while the other posse's were finishing up.  He asked if he could go help, of course I said yes. 

 

Later they were finishing up during awards.  When my son's name was called for his award, he didn't notice as he was putting away a heavy shotgun target.  Everyone turned to look for/at him.  When my son found out he won an award, he put the target away and hurried up to collect it.

 

When we were on the way home, I asked him what the most important thing was.  Of course, he said "winning my category".  I responded with "will anyone remember that in 2 weeks?"  He got quiet and said no.  I asked him what they will remember.  He said "that I was helping to pack up during awards."  That was an important lesson.

Makes you proud doesn't it?

I hadn't mentioned this; but I'm going to piggyback on your comment.

 

My daughter, Desert Scorpion and I were at the shoot I referenced earlier with the gentleman taking headshots.

At awards; we were discussing our performances (or lack thereof) and commiserating.

 

I told her don't worry about it - no one cares and no one will remember.

While we were chatting; the Spirit of the Game awards were announced and Scorpion and I were honored by our posse leader as co-recipients.

 

As we were getting our picture taken - I gave her a little hug and whispered to her - the reputation you take away from this award will far outlive any performance awards.

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4 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Makes you proud doesn't it?

I hadn't mentioned this; but I'm going to piggyback on your comment.

 

My daughter, Desert Scorpion and I were at the shoot I referenced earlier with the gentleman taking headshots.

At awards; we were discussing our performances (or lack thereof) and commiserating.

 

I told her don't worry about it - no one cares and no one will remember.

While we were chatting; the Spirit of the Game awards were announced and Scorpion and I were honored by our posse leader as co-recipients.

 

As we were getting our picture taken - I gave her a little hug and whispered to her - the reputation you take away from this award will far outlive any performance awards.

 

I was once told "attitude is everything".  The farther I get through this journey, the more I find that to be true.

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On 7/27/2019 at 7:21 PM, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Seems to come and go; but every so often, (like now, with two different threads running); the wire gets on a roll about leaving SASS or pining for the so called good ole days.

 

And I fully understand, interests change and apparently NOTHING is as good now as it was 20, 30 or however many years ago.

 

But if you read through the posts without the knee jerk reflex of "Please don't leave...  We will miss you...  etc.".

The posts mostly boil down to I don't want to play anymore because of how OTHERS play the game.

 

I don't get that.

How does someone else playing the game in their preferred method affect your enjoyment?

 

I see complaints about shooters being too into competition and using non stock guns.

So I assume the shooter is disappointed that they are not able/ no longer able to win; but NO, in the next breath, the shooter claims to have no interest in their placement.

 

I don't get that.

If you don't care about placements or awards - then how does another shooters competitive juices or choice of equipment affect your enjoyment?

 

I see complaints about target placements and size being too close or too easy. 

But the shooter doesn't state or mention any efforts of how they have modified their own behaviors to adjust, (shoot nothing but head shots, create one bullet splat groups, engage rifle targets with their pistols, etc.)

 

I don't get that.

If you don't care about awards or category placements AND you have the option to create your own challenges - how does anyone else performance affect your enjoyment?

 

I lied; I do get it.

Many (not all) of these posts are NOT simple announcements of tiring of the game or changing attitudes within the game; but basically threats that unless EVERYONE is shooting the game I want to play, (and only in the manner I want to play it) - I won't play anymore.

 

Games change.

Culture changes.

Participation within any interest ebbs and flows.

 

You adjust if you love it - you leave if you don't.

 

The only person responsible for your challenge, enjoyment or fun at a match is you. 

If your enjoyment is tied to someone elses action, performance or efforts then perhaps moving on is best.

 

The whole idea of the cowboy is rugged individualism; self sufficiency and the ability to adapt.

 

Take that attitude to the match; if the match doesn't provide the challenge you require - create it for yourself.

If another's equipment offends you; ignore it.

 

I hate to see anyone leave a game that I love; but if you wish to stay, you will have to find your own reasons to play and if you wish to leave...

 

Well, bye.

 

Well, since my curiosity led to "the good ole days" thread, I guess I will chime in.

 

Creeker, I think what you have to say is very well put. The game itself really hasn't changed much, there has always been a Westmatch for every Bordertown. Different places shoot different scenarios with different target sizes and distances, always have and always will. This never seemed to affect attendance month to month in the past, when attendance started to drop off it did so across the board, not just at certain clubs with a certain style of match. So I have been holding less stock in the argument that participation dropping off is or isn't because of the shooting.

 

I noticed that when I inquired about what people miss from years past, only one person even mentioned anything related to the shooting itself. Irish Ike had some great input on what I was currently reminiscing about, the amount of vendors at annual matches. Reminiscing is a uniquely human experience that everyone I know is guilty of doing from time to time. None of my best or funniest memories from any SASS match took place while the timer was running. It was that time China Camp and I happened to wear matching outfits at EOT, setting up an AstroTurf lawn and stealing Capt Savior Bacon's flag, or any one of the countless dinners back at a circle of RVs. Everything circles back to the people that were there to share those experiences with.

 

People's outlook or attitudes are directly affected by what is taking place in their lives. Though I was just a snot nose teenager when I started in this game, now I have a son of my own. Though he's only a year old, it feels like he was born two days ago and in another two, he will be a snot nose teenager. I know he plays a huge role in what I would like to see again. I'm already going to have to explain to him one day what it was like to have toy stores as a kid and there is nothing I can do about that.

 

But here, in this game, we used to have the winning equation that saw membership rising by up to 10,000 a year and be the envy of the competitive shooting world. If I can be a part of rediscovering the equation to bring back that level of participation and all the positive things that go with it so my son can experience it, it's worth doing whatever I can to make that happen. I know in 20 years I probably won't care one bit about the number of vendors or the feeling of awe from the feeling of my first EOT and instead be reminiscing about how my young man used to be a little brass picker, but at this point in my life, I do.

 

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I truly feel that for a shooting sport, the shooting portion plays a relatively small part in who we are.

 

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Creeker, Doc Shapiro, Long Hunter... all great posts and reflect thought and care.  I'm one of those guys that shoots for the head, feet, or other such places on targets... I don't get to practice, only shoot 3-4 times a year, at best maybe 6... I don't own any short-stroked guns, I've borrowed them on occasion, found ONE I liked... feller wouldn't sell it to me.  (It was also in a caliber I rarely load {38spl}, so no great loss)... :P  I'm truly agog at the speeds some shooters can finish their stage in... and fact that when I shoot the same stage, it feels like I do it just as fast... although the timer seems reflect a quadrupling effect... 

 

I've had the pleasure to shoot with some of the best in this game... and the most common theme I've found is that they're as willing to help others as themselves.  It's all about attitude... great attitudes achieve great things... whether your goal is fast times, or little tiny groups... I still have some improving to do...   Thank you all for your participation in this great game.

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On 7/28/2019 at 8:23 AM, Tyrel Cody said:

DDD, you're putting way too much weight in a survey that only 192 people participated in. 

Exactly.  I took part in the survey out of curiosity, and I am not intending to slam it, but the results don't mean much.  As Tyrel pointed out it's a very small sample size, and perhaps just as important, it's likely biased, unless you assume that cowboys who participate on the Wire are representative of SASS as a whole which I doubt.  Sampling bias.

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