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Major BS Walker Regulator

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Safe & Handling Conventions - Revolvers, Shooters Handbook page 14 & Safe Conditions During a Course of Fire - Revolvers, Shooters Handbook page 15; are generally safety regulations. To me, the only statement relevant to shooting style is, " Revolvers are drawn and used in accordance with the shooter's category." I have seen a "Procedural" called on several occasions when a non-gunfighter, by deed or misdeed, had two loaded revolvers in hand. Adding the statement regarding a cocked revolver is a new undocumented condition in the SHB. I try to diligently follow WTC posts to keep up with interpretations of the rules but sometimes it is a vexing task.

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Bingo! And by competing "during a course of fire", we have to keep "safety & handling conventions".

Top of Section 4 "ALL SASS Safety conventions are not negotiable and shall never be overruled...".

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7 hours ago, J Bar Binks, #47015 said:

 

 

If it's changed, take a couple minutes and edit the rule book.

   Not sure because I don't do it but I'd say there is a lot more to it than just editing what the online version says. We'd be at version 8976.87. We would probably be in the same spot with someone that is using a hard copy vs someone looking at the online version.

   One of the responsibilities of your territorial governor is to maintain current knowledge regarding cowboy action shooting. Do you get updated with rule clarifications and changes?

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40 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Bingo! And by competing "during a course of fire", we have to keep "safety & handling conventions".

Top of Section 4 "ALL SASS Safety conventions are not negotiable and shall never be overruled...".

That doesn't make sense because it implies it's safe for a gunfighter to do it but nobody else. Glad to see people reading though.

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Pretty hard to make a call at a match on he said or she said.  If it's not written down in the rules, it isn't a rule.

Johnny Meadows

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1 hour ago, Johnny Meadows,SASS#28485L said:

Pretty hard to make a call at a match on he said or she said.  If it's not written down in the rules, it isn't a rule.

Johnny Meadows

Yep.  Right now the rulebook says two loaded revolvers in hand is no no unless you're B Western or Gunfighter.  I see no language about the shooter being ok until one is cocked.

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6 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Yep.  Right now the rulebook says two loaded revolvers in hand is no no unless you're B Western or Gunfighter.  I see no language about the shooter being ok until one is cocked.

I haven't seen it either. I do know the word loaded in the rule has been put in bold. That may be an indicator of some sort. I can say I had my ro2 around last september or so and it was covered then. The clarification came about, if I'm not mistaken because of the situation of a traditional shooter. Say the shooter draws and fires only 4 rounds instead of 5. A smooth shooter will have the 2nd revolver out while he is holstering the 1st revolver. TECHNICALLY THAT SHOOTER HAS 2 LOADED REVOLVERS IN HAND AT THE SAME TIME. That is why the clarification was done if I'm remembering right. Does that make it make sense? I'm having a time explaining it, but I think that is why loaded is in bold now. The definition of loaded in the handbook wasn't changed and it may have been supposed to but that is a guess on my part. I'm sure PWB will let us know his thoughts on it at some point.

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If it was not that way, every time a shooter fired only 4 out of the first revolver, they would get a penalty for shooting out of category if they have any speed about them. Because the 2nd revolver would be out of the holster before the first was back in.

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4 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

If it was not that way, every time a shooter fired only 4 out of the first revolver, they would get a penalty for shooting out of category if they have any speed about them. Because the 2nd revolver would be out of the holster before the first was back in.

 

I think you might be correct (which don't happen often... :lol:)  in that a lot of Duelist and Trad shooters would be earning a 'P' for such an infraction.

 

We'll soon know.

 

..........Widder

 

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8 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

If it was not that way, every time a shooter fired only 4 out of the first revolver, they would get a penalty for shooting out of category if they have any speed about them. Because the 2nd revolver would be out of the holster before the first was back in.

Yep, ya gotta at least be able to count to five, unless you're shooting Gunfighter style. 

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2 minutes ago, Keystone, SASS # 47578 said:

Yep, ya gotta at least be able to count to five, unless you're shooting Gunfighter style. 

But. The penalty we get for that is a miss. Not a P for shooting out of category.

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7 minutes ago, Keystone, SASS # 47578 said:

Yep, ya gotta at least be able to count to five, unless you're shooting Gunfighter style. 

Well, ya know them Gunfighters are a special breed...

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Penalty for unfired round left in revolver after shooting a stage is a miss.

Penalty for having two loaded revolvers in hand, except for Gunfighter style is a Procedure, shooting out of category. I have witnessed this call being made.

The verbiage "cocked" or "uncocked" is not part of the current SHB with regard to these penalties being issued.

 

I imagine the issue is whether or not having two loaded guns in hand can be remedied without a penalty. 

1) Holster 2nd pistol and fire 5th round from 1st pistol and holster. Shoot 2nd pistol & holster.

2) Stage 2nd pistol on stage prop, shoot 5th round in 1st pistol & holster 1st pistol. Then shoot 2nd pistol & holster.

3) Pistols are last firearms shot on the stage,  Stage 2nd pistol on stage prop, shoot 5th round in 1st pistol & stage 1st pistol on stage prop. Then shoot 2nd pistol and holster both pistols.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Keystone, SASS # 47578 said:

Penalty for unfired round left in revolver after shooting a stage is a miss.

Penalty for having two loaded revolvers in hand, except for Gunfighter style is a Procedure, shooting out of category. I have witnessed this call being made.

The verbiage "cocked" or "uncocked" is not part of the current SHB with regard to these penalties being issued.

 

I imagine the issue is whether or not having two loaded guns in hand can be remedied without a penalty. 

1) Holster 2nd pistol and fire 5th round from 1st pistol and holster. Shoot 2nd pistol & holster.

2) Stage 2nd pistol on stage prop, shoot 5th round in 1st pistol & holster 1st pistol. Then shoot 2nd pistol & holster.

3) Pistols are last firearms shot on the stage,  Stage 2nd pistol on stage prop, shoot 5th round in 1st pistol & stage 1st pistol on stage prop. Then shoot 2nd pistol and holster both pistols.

 

 

If there is a penalty for having two loaded revolvers in hand (which is what the SHB currently says) I don't see how you can remedy that by holstering one of the pistols.  That's like saying you can remedy a penalty for moving with a loaded gun by moving back to your original location.

 

I have no issue with the rule being a penalty for having two loaded pistols in hand and one of them cocked, but I don't think it's a good idea to say that's the rule on the Wire while the rulebook says something different.  If that's the new rule it should become effective when the rule book is changed to reflect that.

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If there was not an exception to the rule, almost EVERY time a traditional or duelist shooter only fired 4 rds out of their 1st pistol, they'd get a p for shooting out of category instead of just the intended miss for the round left in the gun. Even my slow self gets the 2nd revolver out before my 1st pistol is holstered. I don't have time to get it out and firing before the first is holstered though. I feel like I am becoming argumentative in my replies. 

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11 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

If there was not an exception to the rule, almost EVERY time a traditional or duelist shooter only fired 4 rds out of their 1st pistol, they'd get a p for shooting out of category instead of just the intended miss for the round left in the gun. Even my slow self gets the 2nd revolver out before my 1st pistol is holstered. I don't have time to get it out and firing before the first is holstered though. I feel like I am becoming argumentative in my replies. 

I don't think you're being argumentative, I think you're right.  I just object to having a rule enforced in a way contrary to what is currently in the SHB.

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21 hours ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

you have until the second pistol is cocked before incurring the P for out of category,,,    in you first question,, a P for not reholstering,, second one no call

 

CC. 

I like the "you have until the second pistol is cocked before incurring the P for out of category"  statement, but where is it referenced in SHB? 

Do we interpret "out" as barrel pointed down range or barrel "out of halo". or does it matter as long as not cocked before correcting to holster?

 

Personally, I would agree with your call on P for not holstering the loaded 2nd  revolver, but truthfully can not quote exact place to find in SHB

.

I have been called for the SOOC at a WR, but I had cocked second revolver (shooting double duelist).  Dumb part was I had holstered first revolver, heard the "one more" statement as I was drawing  and cocking second revolver.  There I stood with left cocked and I draw the right revolver back out of holster and fire.  Yep, should have took miss. As it was, I took P, plus the confusion time.

 

 

 

Note....CC,

You be right. I found correspondence with PWB  in April 2018 on RO Forum that explains this, as you mention.  Heck, post was even to me and I forgot about it....getting old has its" flaws".   I have not found it in SHB yet, but it may be there and I overlooked it..

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3 minutes ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

There I stood with left cocked and I draw the right revolver back out of holster and fire.  Yep, should have took miss. As it was, I took P, plus the confusion time.

Dont think you had to take a miss either. You should be able to draw a revolver, fire it once and holster. Then draw the 2nd and fire it and holster and go back and forth since the revolver string goes by both of them. May make a difference if targets specified 1st and 2nd revolver but i dont think so.

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Each year the revised SHB usually comes out at the end of Feb. or end of March. The clarification should be there.

3 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

 

   One of the responsibilities of your territorial governor is to maintain current knowledge regarding cowboy action shooting. Do you get updated with rule clarifications and changes? 

1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

 The clarification came about, if I'm not mistaken because of the situation of a traditional shooter.

 Came about based on Double Duelists holding shot revolver in one hand while shooting other revolver with other hand before holstering both.

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Unless it is a written Clarification on the Clarifications Site, http://www.oowss.com/ROCornerIndex.htm , or posted here on the Wire with a PWB pinned post, then we have to go with the rules the way they are written.  

 

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I'm on the fence about this. Things in the SHB can overlap, but at a different time.

 

The reason you can not have two loaded guns out at the same time is that it gives an advantage.

ie. you can not be still shooting pistol# 1 as your drawing pistol# 2.

 

My question is 'How do you recover, and when?'. If your shooting a rifle and shoot 9 shots and re-stage it on a prop, can you pick it back up and shoot the last round before you engage the next gun sequence? Sure. In this OP, you miscount. You start for pistol# 2 but re-stage or re-holster #2 (whichever is allowed), then pick up the last round in pistol# 1. None of this gives the advantage noted above.  If #2 is not cocked  (which can not be un-cocked if you did), why can't you re-stage it?

 

If you cock #2 and shoot 5, you can not go back to #1 and finish up.

If you holster #1 with round in gun, it's a miss.

If you draw #2 and then shoot the last round in #1, your out of cat.

You can't have two guns out as traditionalist as you shoot one handed.

A Duelist can have can have two guns out at the same time, but you can't draw #2 till your finished with #1. If you don't try to shoot the forgotten last round in #1, it's a miss. 

 

It's a matter of timing. If you forgot round five in #1 and draw and engage the second pistol, it's a miss. It is not a 'P' for out of category because you have no intention to shoot that last round in #1. The miss came first. We do not 'stack' penalties. It's a miss or it's a 'P'. Depends how the shooter plays it out.

 

If the TO is shouting "One more" after you go for #2 (why else would he be yelling?), then the shooter is being given a way to recover. If it is illegal to recover, it's interference if the shooter is enticed  to re-stage #2 and finish up #1.

 

Just my take on it...

 

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As soon as shooter clears leather with P2 and P1 still has a live round (and it's not holstered yet), it's a P.

If shooter decides to shoot P2 and forego the last round in P1, it's a P AND a miss.

 

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1 minute ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

You would think that clarification should be in the rule book given it happened almost two years ago.

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1 minute ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

You would think that clarification should be in the rule book given it happened almost two years ago.

I hear tell that it is coming...

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Well, atleast I now know that I wasn't crazy or dreaming it up.

 

..........Widder

 

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So, I witnessed this a couple of weeks ago with a DD.  Both revolvers staged.  Shooter picks up and begins shooting LH gun while picking up RH gun keeping the lower edge of the muzzle in contact with prop.  Technically this is not in hand based on the definition but clearly an advantage.  Where does breaking contact with the prop apply?  I called a P.

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1 hour ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

So, I witnessed this a couple of weeks ago with a DD.  Both revolvers staged.  Shooter picks up and begins shooting LH gun while picking up RH gun keeping the lower edge of the muzzle in contact with prop.  Technically this is not in hand based on the definition but clearly an advantage.  Where does breaking contact with the prop apply?  I called a P.

You called wrong.

 

An advantage?

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1 minute ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

So, I witnessed this a couple of weeks ago with a DD.  Both revolvers staged.  Shooter picks up and begins shooting LH gun while picking up RH gun keeping the lower edge of the muzzle in contact with prop.  Technically this is not in hand based on the definition but clearly an advantage.  Where does breaking contact with the prop apply?  I called a P.

 

We're you the TO?  

 

As for as advantages are concerned, many of us try to find advantages to help our performances, of which

most of those advantages are Legal.

 

..........Widder

 

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1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

We're you the TO?  

 

As for as advantages are concerned, many of us try to find advantages to help our performances, of which

most of those advantages are Legal.

 

..........Widder

 

And available to everyone;)

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1 minute ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

And available to everyone;)

 

Indeed.   Thanks for adding that.

 

..........Widderborg

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

So, I witnessed this a couple of weeks ago with a DD.  Both revolvers staged.  Shooter picks up and begins shooting LH gun while picking up RH gun keeping the lower edge of the muzzle in contact with prop.  Technically this is not in hand based on the definition but clearly an advantage.  Where does breaking contact with the prop apply?  I called a P.

When the gun is no longer touching the prop.  A P wasn't the correct call, it's a no call.

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