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Grouchy Spike

7 Round magazine loads in the 1911 in Wild Bunch!

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5,7 or 15, makes no difference to me. I don't see why WB is even a part of SASS. They have never stood on thier own, and will never stand on thier own. The walk in and expect to use our facilities, our targets, and basicly want us to foot the bill for every thing that they do.... YET, beat thier chest about how great they are... well, if they are so great, let them go out on make it on thier own. They have been riding our horse long enough.

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2 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

5,7 or 15, makes no difference to me. I don't see why WB is even a part of SASS. They have never stood on thier own, and will never stand on thier own. The walk in and expect to use our facilities, our targets, and basicly want us to foot the bill for every thing that they do.... YET, beat thier chest about how great they are... well, if they are so great, let them go out on make it on thier own. They have been riding our horse long enough.

Snakebite, are the CAS and WBAS shooters not members of the same club?  Do not some participate in both games?

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Yes, that is true. If the Gangster style shooting crowd was able to get into SASS, would that mean we would turn everything we have to them too? I joined a Cowboy Action shooting group, and spent 25 yrs building a great club, and it is for CAS, not WB. There are other shooting sports for 1911 type guns... it was those type guns that we were runing from when CAS was formed.

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22 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

5,7 or 15, makes no difference to me. I don't see why WB is even a part of SASS. They have never stood on thier own, and will never stand on thier own. The walk in and expect to use our facilities, our targets, and basicly want us to foot the bill for every thing that they do.... YET, beat thier chest about how great they are... well, if they are so great, let them go out on make it on thier own. They have been riding our horse long enough.

Wow! We shoot CAS at those ranges. We also pay match fees. Way to go on alienating and insulting fellow Cowboy Shooters.

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33 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

Yes, that is true. If the Gangster style shooting crowd was able to get into SASS, would that mean we would turn everything we have to them too? I joined a Cowboy Action shooting group, and spent 25 yrs building a great club, and it is for CAS, not WB. There are other shooting sports for 1911 type guns... it was those type guns that we were runing from when CAS was formed.

I see from your SASS number that you were among the pioneers of the game.  Thanks for all that you did and do to support and promote Cowboy Action Shooting!

 

IMO WBAS seems to be a kissing cousin of CAS, but i recognize that not everyone shares that opinion.  Some days I like to revolve, some days I prefer to slide.

 

I don't know whether CAS membership and participation is growing or declining, but if not growing I'm concerned. 

 

What is happening at King River Regulators and Chorro Valley Regulators?  Growing?  Is participation in the other game(s) adding revenue to the treasury?

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No one who has seriously trained with any semi-auto pistol for SD use, is trained to run it to 'slide-lock' before reloading.

Grits - the same is accomplished with 5 in the magazine.  Believe the open issue to be divulged by the Committee is ... Why the sudden change and only for Sanctioned Matches?

And PS, believe many of the local club WB matches will implement 7 in the magazine also.  Get enough of the locals behind the decision and expect another rule change ;)

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John Boy, local clubs can do whatever they want. The same as for CAS matches. We anticipate that almost every club that has stand-alone WBAS matches will adopt 7 in the magazine. Clubs that have a "Wild Bunch" category will probably keep 5 rounds to match the target engagement sequences used by others. We also anticipate that most rifle sequences will be 7 rounds.   Many more changes are being considered but the unintended consequences of changes must be taken into account. We have been considering the change to 7 rounds for at least 4 years and decided it was for the good of the sport. Just like adding the Model 12 SG. It took several years to decide it was for the best. We (the WBAS Committee) are always looking at ways to improve the sport without compromising the original intent.

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2 hours ago, Grouchy Spike said:

I see from your SASS number that you were among the pioneers of the game.  Thanks for all that you did and do to support and promote Cowboy Action Shooting!

 

IMO WBAS seems to be a kissing cousin of CAS, but i recognize that not everyone shares that opinion.  Some days I like to revolve, some days I prefer to slide.

 

I don't know whether CAS membership and participation is growing or declining, but if not growing I'm concerned. 

 

What is happening at King River Regulators and Chorro Valley Regulators?  Growing?  Is participation in the other game(s) adding revenue to the treasury?

Our club is certainly holding it's own, and picking up new members here and there. Our annual matches fill up early with many folks coming from other areas just to experience the Cowboy Game. I realize that it does little good, but I am sorry that my comments are offensive to some. However, I do not apologize for them because they are my true feelings.   I know that they were harsh, but they were also true.   I have not been able to embrace WBAS. I know that some Cowboys enjoy it and that is just fine. Most of them have nothing invested other than the cost of  their guns.  They started out saying that they just wanted to use us and ALL THAT WE HAVE  to get started and then they would move out on their own... but that has not happened, and I doubt that it ever will. Kinda like the guy that came to spend a weekend and never moved out. We have had other groups that wanted to just walk in and use our Turn Key operation to start their own program  and I opposed them too. Just paying shooting fees does not even come close to paying their way. They are virtually supported by CAS and I don't think that is right. Targets, props, administration facilities are not cheap, and require constant maintenance and in some cases regular replacement I have not seen any WBAS group that pays for itself. We have a tremendous amount of money and time invested in those things and that long term investment is and was for CAS, NOT WBAS. Yes,  I am of the Old School and I have always strongly supported CAS. It was/is a unique game and filled a void in the shooting community, much more than just a place to shoot. I look up the road at the  IPSC, IDPA  clubs etc and wonder why the WBAS group didn't just go shoot with them. I have no doubt that if they approached any of these groups wanting to use all of their assets for their own thing, that they would be turned down outright. Starting a new game is tough... it requires a HUGH initial outlay and a lot of support. WBAS was given a FREE start up by SASS in the hopes that it would provide more revenue, but they have never grown to the point that they have removed themselves to their own separate venue. Some of the turnouts at matches, even large State and above matches are just not very well attended. As long as they are completely dependent upon SASS, they will never grow into much. IMO... it should be nothing more than a side match at a Cowboy Action shooting event (if even that). This is my opinion, but I know many Cowboy Action shooters that feel the same way.     

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This is a welcome change.   Glad to see it.

 

I really don't undertand all the arguments about shooting or not shooting to slide lock though.   I see no advantage to dropping a magazine that still has rounds in it, or waiting until it is empty.   Of course, I shoot my 1911 left handed, and that gives me an advantage over righties...

 

Bolt action rifles?   Okay, but the 95 Winchester too!  :)  

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This is a welcome change.   Glad to see it.

HK - how about a welcome change in CAS too ... only one revolver instead of 2.  After all - Real Cowboys carried only one revolver in their saddle bag! ;)

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37 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

I really don't undertand all the arguments about shooting or not shooting to slide lock though.   I see no advantage to dropping a magazine that still has rounds in it, or waiting until it is empty.    

 

You have then never trained with a semi-auto for serious fighting/defense use then.

One of the first things taught-if you run to SL-You screwed up because you are fighting with an empty weapon. Also, you ALWAYS reload after initial contact. You never leave behind any mag. A true 'tactical reload', you maintain possession of the mag. 

Many here are former LEOs or contractors, and as such have had decades of muscle memory ingrained, and still carry a semi-auto for defense.

JB-No the same is not accomplished with 5. The 1911 series .45acp was built from the get-go to hold 7 in the mag.

That's OK-WB makes up for it by making you load a SG with more rounds than what the maker built it for-LOL^_^

7 rounds in a gun made for it, is a good deal-Now, take the step to slide-forward reloads.

OLG 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 said:

So certainly it's never happened......I say what I mean and mean what I say and I don't tell stories.

Deuce ,I never meant to imply that it hasn't happened or will not happen I just stated that I haven't seen it here. You are very welcome to visit Western Colorado and I can assure you of the warmest welcome regardless of which discipline you choose to shoot.

 

Having said that ,I really don't understand the animosity displayed by some towards WB.As far as I can see anything that draws people towards one or other side of the sport has got to be good for all.  Its a game ,there's no money involved....at least no money flowing towards the shooter only away from the shooter in my experience!!!! It gives us an excuse to spend another day at the range with friends.

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2 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

That's OK-WB makes up for it by making you load a SG with more rounds than what the maker built it for-LOL^_^

 

 

 

That is one that I HATE with a passion.   None of my 97's, original or reproduction, will hold 6 rounds, and yet so many stage writers insist on writing for 6 rounds.  This either forces people to modify their guns from the way they were made or puts people who like to maintain as much "orignality" as is possible at a distinct disadvantage.

 

That ain't right.

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13 hours ago, Blackey Cole said:

Changing the restrictions on what shotgun is legal and loosing the restrictions on the pistol so I can use my stock ruger commander might get back to wbas

Maybe you could ask NASCAR to change the rules to allow you to use your road car too.

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Considering there are only 300 or 400 WB shooters total, the 5 or 7 round magazine thing is much ado about nothing. it's not going to change my mind or anyone elses mind about WB. 

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  Several years ago I got all fired up to shoot Wild Bunch.  Had a new Kimber Pro Carry, so I bought 4 new Mags, had leather made, bought a very nice 97, and also bought a Marlin in 45 Colt.  All fixed up.  Right??   Wrong!!!  They bitched about my Kimber because it only had a 4 inch barrel, instead of the "Political Correct" 5 inch barrel.

 

   After a couple of rather absurd arguments with the then people in charge, I sold the leather and the 97, keeping the Marlin for a backup rifle.   I lost all interest in WB shooting, and will never attempt shooting it again.  Way too many other disciplines to shoot where my Kimber is welcome, and as expected, performs well.

 

   Cowboy action is my passion. Too old and slow to be a threat to the fast guys, but I enjoy the game, and more especially the people.   For me it was the WB shooters that killed my interest, in WB Shooting, although I never intended to shoot anything but monthys.

    RBK

 

 

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6 hours ago, Assassin said:

Considering there are only 300 or 400 WB shooters total, the 5 or 7 round magazine thing is much ado about nothing. it's not going to change my mind or anyone elses mind about WB. 

 

I'm not understanding for sure whether you shoot WB or not. 

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5 hours ago, Rio Brazos Kid said:

  Several years ago I got all fired up to shoot Wild Bunch.  Had a new Kimber Pro Carry, so I bought 4 new Mags, had leather made, bought a very nice 97, and also bought a Marlin in 45 Colt.  All fixed up.  Right??   Wrong!!!  They bitched about my Kimber because it only had a 4 inch barrel, instead of the "Political Correct" 5 inch barrel.

 

   After a couple of rather absurd arguments with the then people in charge, I sold the leather and the 97, keeping the Marlin for a backup rifle.   I lost all interest in WB shooting, and will never attempt shooting it again.  Way too many other disciplines to shoot where my Kimber is welcome, and as expected, performs well.

 

   Cowboy action is my passion. Too old and slow to be a threat to the fast guys, but I enjoy the game, and more especially the people.   For me it was the WB shooters that killed my interest, in WB Shooting, although I never intended to shoot anything but monthys.

    RBK

 

 

RBK, it sounds like a 7-round load in the 1911 magazine won't entice you to play WB because you don't and won't have a 1911 government model to comply with the requirements of the game.  Did you ask for an exception to the rules before you equipped for the game?

 

How's the participation in the WB matches nowadays at the club where this conflict occurred? 

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11 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

7 rounds in a gun made for it, is a good deal-Now, take the step to slide-forward reloads.

OLG 

 

 

 

OLG, are you now playing WB?  If not, you would play if tactical reloads were allowed?  No other objections?

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12 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

This is a welcome change.   Glad to see it.

 

 

HK, please clarify - you already play WB?

 

My experience with the M97 magazine: Use 2 1/2" shotshells from Polywad.com and mods aren't necessary.

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12 hours ago, John Boy said:

And PS, believe many of the local club WB matches will implement 7 in the magazine also.  Get enough of the locals behind the decision and expect another rule change ;)

 

JB, are you playing WB now?  If not, will you play in local matches now that 7 in the mag is allowed, if the club makes the change?

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We have a small turn out at our club for WB.  I see us loosing some folks with the added rounds? 

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Just now, Red Rider Rudy said:

We have a small turn out at our club for WB.  I see us loosing some folks with the added rounds? 

 

What about you, R3?  Will you hang in there and play?

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1 minute ago, Grouchy Spike said:

 

What about you, R3?  Will you hang in there and play?

It's up to the guy's that run our shoots?  As they already do some not fun stuff.    Like dump five rounds on a plate, now it will be dump seven?

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25 minutes ago, Red Rider Rudy said:

It's up to the guy's that run our shoots?  As they already do some not fun stuff.    Like dump five rounds on a plate, now it will be dump seven?

Happy Jack said that the 7-round rule applies to sanctioned matches, and clubs make their choice for local matches.  What effect will 7 rounds in the magazine have on you?  Will you continue to play? 

 

Have you recommended to the designer of the scenarios that these dumps be excluded as not challenging?  Would you be permitted to write the scenarios?

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6 minutes ago, Grouchy Spike said:

Happy Jack said that the 7-round rule applies to sanctioned matches, and clubs make their choice for local matches.  What effect will 7 rounds in the magazine have on you?  Will you continue to play? 

 

Have you recommended to the designer of the scenarios that these dumps be excluded as not challenging?  Would you be permitted to write the scenarios?

We tell them a lot, but it's there came?  For most of us that shoot it, it's just more trigger time!  Our club has over 1,000 members and the most we have at a match is 18?

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3 minutes ago, Red Rider Rudy said:

We tell them a lot, but it's there came?  For most of us that shoot it, it's just more trigger time!  Our club has over 1,000 members and the most we have at a match is 18?

 

What effect will the 7 round magazine have on you?  When you talk among the 18 WB shooters, how many wil continue to play?

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For me I'll still play, like all clubs we have a lot of older folks.   Some might have a harder time with round count?  So hard to say what will happen?

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1 minute ago, Red Rider Rudy said:

Some might have a harder time with round count? 

:lol: I'm in that group!  But I'll play. No doubt will bump against the tactical reload rule for a while.

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Finally!  I can now quit saying it's just CAS w/a 1911.  Now, just don't change the PF or target distances.  Hopin' I can make next month's match!

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20 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Now, if one could reload the 1911 without going to 'slide-lock'.

No one who has seriously trained with any semi-auto pistol for SD use, is trained to run it to 'slide-lock' before reloading.

The 7 rounds in the std 1911 mag is a good start.

OLG

 

I must disagree Pard.  We in the military, by far the largest user of the 1911, shot them single-handed and ran them dry.  I realize that law enforcement is different and came around faster, but until Jeff Cooper and Gunsite came along, "hot swapping" and "tactical reloads" weren't even in the lexicon.  It wasn't until they took away my 1911 and gave me an M9 in (I think) 1986 that they started teaching us to use the Modified Weaver stance and do hot-swapping drills.  What they teach today at FLETC is *WAY* beyond what I was taught.  Going to slide-lock is historically correct for the Wild Bunch era.

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I am of the opinion, that supporting any type of shooting is commendable.  If the range can properly support it.

 

We allow Wild Bunch shooters during our normal monthly matches.  During a normal monthly match, the number of WB shooters attending, ranges from 0-3, I think..Mostly just 1 or 2.  The majority of the board ruled to include any Cody-Dixon and Wild Bunch shooters during monthly's.

 

I am not a big fan of having Wild Bunch at our range, as there are ZERO Wild Bunch shooters that attend that are RO certified in Wild Bunch Rules.  This makes for lax rulings and does not help the Wild Bunch or the Cowboy Action shooters understand and enforce the Wild Bunch rules.  Of which many do not care to know.  They just wanna shoot and go home.  Which may be the majority of shooters...Not sure...

 

Just understanding the SASS rules can tend to worry some shooters.  I am not Wild Bunch RO qualified and at this time do not desire it.

 

I truly wish we had more Wild Bunch shooters, so we could have either one posse of WB shooters during our match OR even set up their own day of shooting.  As long as there is at least one RO certified WB shooter.  There is one club that I know of, in our area, Oakwood Outlaws....that has the Wild Bunch shooters match only on the 2nd Monday of each month.  I would like that at our range.

 

With the new 7 round per mag, this will stress me (as the Range Master  ) as to how I will blend in any potential Wild Bunch shooters during our normal Cowboy monthly's.  I  write and set all our stages for Cowboy, Cody-Dixon and Wild Bunch.  

 

I try to set challenging, good stages for all those types.

 

 

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On ‎8‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 10:50 AM, Jefro, SASS#69420 said:

I agree, IMNHO mag capacity never had a bearing on who shot WB. Now to figure out how to get 14 in the rifle:wacko::D

We could look at this way too........what if we loaded 6 in the revolver for SASS (if safety wasn't an issue)......would it change the game? Would we have new people trying it out, quitting or finally get on board because that empty chamber is finally filled? I'm think not. It's not about round counts it's about the nature of the game IMO. 

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5 hours ago, Grouchy Spike said:

 

OLG, are you now playing WB?  If not, you would play if tactical reloads were allowed?  No other objections?

I 'play' now, as some of our local clubs have done this for ages. They call these shoots 'The Professionals'.

3 hours ago, JohnHenryQuick said:

 

I must disagree Pard.  We in the military, by far the largest user of the 1911, shot them single-handed and ran them dry.  I realize that law enforcement is different and came around faster, but until Jeff Cooper and Gunsite came along, "hot swapping" and "tactical reloads" weren't even in the lexicon.  It wasn't until they took away my 1911 and gave me an M9 in (I think) 1986 that they started teaching us to use the Modified Weaver stance and do hot-swapping drills.  What they teach today at FLETC is *WAY* beyond what I was taught.  Going to slide-lock is historically correct for the Wild Bunch era.

To go against todays training, that in TODAYS world that can save your live just to play a gun game, makes no sense.

BTW: It was JMB who designed the 1911 for safe 'condition 1' carry. ;)

I have attended Gunsite since Col Cooper opened it. Was in more than one class that he was the instructor. 

Completed Advanced Carbine Class last year and hope to make the Allumi shoot.

Lastly-Going to slide-lock in a real fight, can get your DRT real dang fast.

OLG

 

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13 hours ago, Assassin said:

Considering there are only 300 or 400 WB shooters total, the 5 or 7 round magazine thing is much ado about nothing. it's not going to change my mind or anyone elses mind about WB. 

 

See, you're using the W I D E paint brush again. :rolleyes:

Don't put us all, in that bucket you're in. <_<

OLG

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