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Grouchy Spike

7 Round magazine loads in the 1911 in Wild Bunch!

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It’s official!  Beginning January 1, 2018 all sanctioned Wild Bunch Matches will load 7 (yes SEVEN) rounds of 45 acp in the 1911 magazines.  :lol: Happy Jack said it here:

 

http://www.sassnet.com/wildbunch/forum/index.php?topic=2383.0

 

In the replies to my post on the SASS Wire of June 14, 2017 regarding changes to Wild Bunch rules and conventions to attract more shooters:

one of the frequent objections to participation was a 5-round magazine load.  The Rules Committee has overcome that objection!  :D

 

Might we expect to see a stampede to Wild Bunch matches by formerly frustrated advocates for loading 7 rounds in the magazine?  Who is ready to play WBAS with 7 rounds in the 1911 magazines?    Toss your magazine into the ring!  :o

 

I suggest that you reply to this thread to let the Rules Committee know whether the rule change has been effective in responding to your concerns and recommendations.  That could help them in future considerations of changes to the rules based on recommendations from the shooters.

 

Lone Dog, already a player, will no doubt lead the celebration about this change in the rules as he has been one of the most vocal in support of it for some time.  The spirit of JMB will be smiling upon us as we are taking full advantage  of his design. Well, more advantage anyway.

 

For a while I expect to see a few tactical reloads after 5 rounds have been fired while we (and me in particular) become accustomed to counting to 7 instead of 5.  Maybe there should be a moratorium on the application of that penalty for a month or three?:huh:

 

This is exciting – new combinations of target sequences to enjoy!  Those stages where we shot six or seven 5-round magazines for 30 or 35 shots can now become 35 or 42 shots.  It’s time to buy more powder and more bullets!  :lol:

 

This is nirvana for the slide-action shooters.  We are free from one of the bonds that enslaved us!  It is the ultimate happiness that comes when we are liberated from finding pain in impermanent objects. 

 

The Rules Committee did listen!  :)  Posse up! Power to the 1911!

 

 

1911 Ruger SR1911.jpg

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Is this where we pee ourselves?  Stand by for bolt action rifles, and the rules committee will be where the clubs shooting wild bunch were, 10 years ago.  How exciting.

 

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Makes NO difference to my not playing the WB game !!!

Allowing 16 ga. to be used In Both 97 and M-12s  might be a game changer ....

Allowing hammered doubles in 16 ga...

Would get me to give it a go ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

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8 minutes ago, Nasty Newt # 7365 said:

Is this where we pee ourselves?  Stand by for bolt action rifles, and the rules committee will be where the clubs shooting wild bunch were, 10 years ago.  How exciting.

 

Hey Newt, I don't know how many would be excited by this change but it was a frequent objection that has been addressed.

 

As to Bolt Action rifles, that could be a subject for another post!  As in Krags and 1903s?  I'd pay attention to that!  Are you gonna play WBAS?

 

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16 minutes ago, Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 said:

Makes NO difference to my not playing the WB game !!!

Allowing 16 ga. to be used In Both 97 and M-12s  might be a game changer ....

Allowing hammered doubles in 16 ga...

Would get me to give it a go ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

The gauge of the pump shotgun is your only objection?  Were that addressed to your satisfaction, you would play the game?

 

The sanctioned matches are State and above where strict adherence to the rules is required.   Local clubs have some freedom to innovate and experiment.  Several clubs already sorted out your objection by including an Open Class to include 16 gauge pump or a SxS. 

 

Does your local club offer WB matches?  Would they create an Open Class? Have you recommended that?  What was their response? 

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If you don't want to play Wild Bunch, you don't have to. 

 

You don't have to hack on it either. 

 

There was a recent thread asking what it would take to attract CAS shooters to Wild Bunch. I personally think that was an Ill advised question. The answers other than to allow 7 rounds per magazine were basically  to make Wild Bunch into CAS with a 1911. The SASS CAS shooter are, in my opinion, the worst possible people to

try to recruit folks to become  Wild Bunch Action Shooters. If they wanted to shoot Wild Bunch, they already would.. 

 

I honestly believe that trying to attract CAS shooters to Wild Bunch is

not a very smart thing to attempt. If they wanted to shoot Wild Bunch they would already be doing so  

 

 

What does it take to attract non CAS shooters to Wild Bunch?  That is the demographic that needs to be attracted to Wild Bunch.  

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26 minutes ago, J.W. Sinclair said:

If you don't want to play Wild Bunch, you don't have to. 

 

You don't have to hack on it either. 

 

There was a recent thread asking what it would take to attract CAS shooters to Wild Bunch. I personally think that was an Ill advised question. The answers other than to allow 7 rounds per magazine were basically  to make Wild Bunch into CAS with a 1911. The SASS CAS shooter are, in my opinion, the worst possible people to

try to recruit folks to become  Wild Bunch Action Shooters. If they wanted to shoot Wild Bunch, they already would.. 

 

I honestly believe that trying to attract CAS shooters to Wild Bunch is

not a very smart thing to attempt. If they wanted to shoot Wild Bunch they would already be doing so  

 

 

What does it take to attract non CAS shooters to Wild Bunch?  That is the demographic that needs to be attracted to Wild Bunch.  

Yeah, that was my thread on June 14.  Do you think that CAS shooters just don't enjoy shooting as much as do WB shooters?  Or do the cowboys not enjoy the challenge of a bit more precision in marksmanship with their pistols?

 

From the other games - IDPA and such - they want tactical reloads, rounds in the chamber to start, and some other privileges that aren't allowed in WBAS.  Some consider us crazy for starting without a round in the chamber.

 

What holds a WBAS shooter to the WB game when he could be playing in those other games?  Whatever is that attraction must be what's keeping other disciplines out of the WB game.

 

I don't have access to the demographic on non-CAS shooters to ask that question.  Do you?  Can you help there?  Do you play in those games/

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4 hours ago, Grouchy Spike said:

Yeah, that was my thread on June 14.  Do you think that CAS shooters just don't enjoy shooting as much as do WB shooters?  Or do the cowboys not enjoy the challenge of a bit more precision in marksmanship with their pistols?

 

From the other games - IDPA and such - they want tactical reloads, rounds in the chamber to start, and some other privileges that aren't allowed in WBAS.  Some consider us crazy for starting without a round in the chamber.

 

What holds a WBAS shooter to the WB game when he could be playing in those other games?  Whatever is that attraction must be what's keeping other disciplines out of the WB game.

 

I don't have access to the demographic on non-CAS shooters to ask that question.  Do you?  Can you help there?  Do you play in those games/

I think its more CAS enjoy playing Cowboy .

And are NOT in to playing GI Joe in a Cowboy Hat !

IMHO 

Rooster

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7 rounds in a 1911 mag instead of 5 is GREAT news for WB shooters.  I look forward to it.

 

Thanks to all who worked to make this rule change happen.

 

:D

 

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I had all the gear at one point in time and used to shoot it once a month......every month. For me it became more exclusive and I feel that CAS is more inclusive. And as a match director for CAS matches it gets a little daunting hearing the same tiny faction of Wild Bunch shooters beat their chests about how superior WB is to CAS.The exclusiveness and attitude that goes along with it has not done WB any favors at all. Locally (read midwest/mideast) we get pretty darn good participation when WB is run like a CAS match. One of the things that has always made CAS work is that it's a "every mans" game. Just speaking for me personally my wife wants nothing to do with a 1911 shooting 150 powder factor, but I would not expect that to change either. Just like in any business or game if you want growth, sometimes you have to get out of your own way. I wish WBAS all the best, I really do. These are just my observations. 
 

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Changing the restrictions on what shotgun is legal and loosing the restrictions on the pistol so I can use my stock ruger commander might get back to wbas

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Seven rounds per mag, GREAT!  Love shooting my traditional 1911 and welcome the increased round count.  With the extra practice, perhaps I'll finally be able to hit something!

 

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Step in the tight direction. Now add starting in cond1 (like I carry), and tactical reloads.

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Changing the mag capacity isn't going to do anything to help WB IMO. I never understood the big push for it. It will take longer to pick up brass and it will be more confusing for people that don't shoot it often but do shoot cowboy. I know many will jump on me for that but as an RO I see folks miscounting on more simple 5 shot scenarios so when you start doing 5, 6 & 7 rifle and then 7 pistol (or less?) you will create a situation that's not worth 2 extra rounds just to fill the void of the magazine. 

 

 

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I have to chime in here ,I have never seen what Deuce has experienced except with IPSC and IDPA .We hold at least one or two WB matches every month and have always tried to be as warm and welcoming as possible to all .In my experience it hasn't been the round count that has held people back ,its the rifle caliber . Folks usually would have no problem buying a new pistol ,especially if its the Super amazing 1911(of which I am quite a fan) .But to buy both a shotgun and a dedicated rifle as well  is just too much. The 97 can be had relatively cheaply but usually not a decent rifle.

Personally though ,I think the biggest barrier right now is the ridiculous scoring system that is actively driving people away from the sport .

For a member of the WB rules committee to come onto the wire and admit that the scoring at the last TWO years of both the worlds and the national championships has been flawed and erroneous is flabbergasting to me .. Once, maybe could be forgiven ,but then if it was recognized why hasn't it been fixed?? 

To place the  third place category winner as the overall winner is ludicrous ,even if it happens because of some automatic flawed algorithm . Fix it or don't use it.

I have the deepest respect for everyone who was involved in that latest debacle at EOT ,but im afraid that scoring system needs to be attended to .........and fast  .

For some reason I am only able to reply to selective posts on the wild bunch wire other wise my opinions would be expressed there as well

 

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I agree with you UJ.   I have never seen a WB shooter react in other way than to promote the sport.   It is in all of our best interests to promote ALL shooting sports.  

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It doesn't matter to me either way.  I shoot WB when I can, usually the big matches, but I don't go too far out of my way to find a match.

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I am not currently a WBAS shooter. I have several nice 1911 models from various manufacturers, a couple '97's and a 45 colt rifle. I have been encouraged by several local WBAS shooters to come out and play the game and have ALWAYS been treated in an inclusive and welcoming manner. The players have NEVER been the problem to me. Further I would like to thank the WB rules committee for responding to some of the concerns of their membership.

What has been a major issue to me is that I have damaged wrists that are aching for several days after one of the two or three matches that I have shot. I can shoot my 9mm's all day without issue, my 40's as well, but to shoot several hundreds of 45's at 150 PF (or higher) to practice each week plus a hundred or more for a match is more than this old body can take.

Magazine capacity being upped to 7 is nice as the gun was designed to hold that many (and it seems every other semi auto game loads to capacity) and I see no reason not to shoot as I practice.

Mostly though I do not much care for a scoring system that seems inconsistent and arbitrary with less accountability than the now defunct rank point system. It would seem that those who raised a hue and cry about removing the rank point system should be up in arms over the WBAS scoring methodology. Even with all its flaws the rank system never put a non category winning shooter into an overall winning position:blink:.

Appearances count for a lot and with a system that appears to have no rhyme or reason to it and additionally seems unfair based on current results, it is my opinion THAT is what drives some away from an otherwise exciting game.

Regards

 

:FlagAm: :FlagAm: :FlagAm:

 

Gateway Kid

 

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59 minutes ago, Cowboy Junky said:

Changing the mag capacity isn't going to do anything to help WB IMO. I never understood the big push for it. It will take longer to pick up brass and it will be more confusing for people that don't shoot it often but do shoot cowboy. I know many will jump on me for that but as an RO I see folks miscounting on more simple 5 shot scenarios so when you start doing 5, 6 & 7 rifle and then 7 pistol (or less?) you will create a situation that's not worth 2 extra rounds just to fill the void of the magazine. 

 

 

I agree, IMNHO mag capacity never had a bearing on who shot WB. Now to figure out how to get 14 in the rifle:wacko::D

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1 minute ago, Jefro, SASS#69420 said:

I agree, IMNHO mag capacity never had a bearing on who shot WB. Now to figure out how to get 14 in the rifle:wacko::D

Convert it to .45 ACP !!!

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1 minute ago, union jack said:

Convert it to .45 ACP !!!

Ta Daaaa!!:D

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Not advocating additional classes by any means, but I have small hands (wear children's gloves for ages 7-10) and holding a .45 1911 is very hard for me, but several of the local clubs I shoot at allow me to play "Mild Bunch" shooting my .22 1911, 12 guage 97, and .38 rifle.  I'm not competing against anyone, only out to shoot and have FUN.  I've always been welcomed to play even if I'm not technically correct.  Guys have always been helpful and supportive.  I'll never shoot WB competitively, but do have fun shooting "Mild Bunch." 

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I have always believed that it ain't the caliber but the cost of the rifle.

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Now, if one could reload the 1911 without going to 'slide-lock'.

No one who has seriously trained with any semi-auto pistol for SD use, is trained to run it to 'slide-lock' before reloading.

The 7 rounds in the std 1911 mag is a good start.

OLG

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So you guys with 38 rifles won't shoot because you have to buy  a larger caliber rifle?

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10 hours ago, Grouchy Spike said:

Hey Newt, I don't know how many would be excited by this change but it was a frequent objection that has been addressed.

 

As to Bolt Action rifles, that could be a subject for another post!  As in Krags and 1903s?  I'd pay attention to that!  Are you gonna play WBAS?

 

Grouchy, I apologize for my wise-ass reply.  To answer your question, no, SASS WB never appealed to me.  It was more fun for me before they got ahold of it and sanctioned what they thought was the best way to do it.  I disagree with their choices is all.  When we were doing our annual, Defend the Roost, we had a WB side match that used cowboy guns, a 1911, and a military bolt action.  We had to change the name to The Professionals to avoid confusion with SASS WB.  These days we have 2 or 3 Bolt Action matches a year.  We shoot low velocity cast bullet rounds at steel from roughly 30 to 90 yards.  

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3 hours ago, Back 40 #23910 L said:

I agree with you UJ.   I have never seen a WB shooter react in other way than to promote the sport.   It is in all of our best interests to promote ALL shooting sports.  

So certainly it's never happened......I say what I mean and mean what I say and I don't tell stories.

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Thought more about this.

 

In the big matches, think WR or EOT, WBAS shooters fire a lot of rounds.  Especially, from the 1911.  It takes a fair amount of stamina and grip strength to finish a match.  The 150 PF is not a big deal to me, but it is to some shooters who can only endure so long.  Allowing 9mm 1911s may, or may not, help this.

 

The rifle caliber rule is a barrier because so many people shoot .38 Special mouse fart loads these days.  Unless there are regular matches in your area, it gets expensive to buy a rifle just for WBAS.  

 

I favor shooting doubles but the M12 works just fine and they are relatively inexpensive.

 

Match set up takes a lot of time and requires a lot of people.  Since my back is always one mistake away from the surgeon's scalpel, I am pretty useless when it comes to setting up.  I know of several others in the same boat.  So, you can cut the number of available helpers who can move steel by as much as a half.  That puts a big burden on healthy folks.

 

A lot of people seem to want to turn WBAS into some sort of three gun event.  There's are lots of three gun events already.  WBAS is unique and should remain that way.  But, that is only MNHO.  

 

My .02 cents worth and you get what you pay for.

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4 minutes ago, Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 said:

So certainly it's never happened......I say what I mean and mean what I say and I don't tell stories.

Deuce I have the greatest respect for what you do for SASS and I have witnessed I little of what you have seen but if you come to the Dakotas or Gunsmoke WB match you will see none of this. I am glad to see that the WB committee is listing to the shooters and believe they are moving in the right direction. Come shoot with us

MCJ 

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7 minutes ago, Medicine Creek Johnny said:

Deuce I have the greatest respect for what you do for SASS and I have witnessed I little of what you have seen but if you come to the Dakotas or Gunsmoke WB match you will see none of this. I am glad to see that the WB committee is listing to the shooters and believe they are moving in the right direction. Come shoot with us

MCJ 

 Thank you for the invite! I want all of SASS including WBAS to thrive. That goes for all shooting sports. There really is no reason to feel any other way in my mind. Everything evolves in one way or another. CAS is not what it was when I started. Some of it I miss and some I do not. The heart of the game which is the people is still there, and thats what I think rolls most of us on out of bed on Saturday and Sunday mornings to go ring steel regardless of which game you are playing. 

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I do not dislike WB and have all the necessary equipment to participate. It is just that there is enough of a difference between WB and CAS that I try not to participate in state and above matches. Shooting WB at those matches seems to throw me off my game when it comes to the CAS side of the house. I really do not shoot side matches either for much the same reason as I find speed pistol, rifle and shotgun finds me running at speeds that are not conducive to hitting targets consistently. When I am able I do participate in local WB matches and enjoy fumbling around with racking slides and changing mags. My performance is generally poor because I elect not to practice other than dry firing a couple of times to be sure I am exercising safe gun handling techniques. Kid Nama does not care for WB simply because she is unable to consistently rack the slide on the 1911 and is basically uncomfortable with the pistol. Given she readily will shoot CAS with me I say nothing and count my blessings.

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4 hours ago, Blackey Cole said:

Changing the restrictions on what shotgun is legal and loosing the restrictions on the pistol so I can use my stock ruger commander might get back to wbas

Might ain't a commitment, Blackie!:huh:

 

Local clubs have some freedom to innovate and experiment.  Several clubs already sorted out your objection by including an Open Class to include 16 gauge pump or a SxS. 

 

Does your club offer local WB matches?  Would they create an Open Class? Have you recommended that?  What was their response?

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So you guys with 38 rifles won't shoot because you have to buy  a larger caliber rifle?

 

Nope. I have a CodyMatic circa 2001 chambered in 45 Colt. 20"er and runs superbly. I also have a '73 with a 30" inch barrel that I may use :) 

 

But there are one or two cowboys out there that can't (or won't) spend another thousand or so to shoot Wild Bunch.

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2 hours ago, Nasty Newt # 7365 said:

Grouchy, I apologize for my wise-ass reply.  To answer your question, no, SASS WB never appealed to me.  It was more fun for me before they got ahold of it and sanctioned what they thought was the best way to do it.  I disagree with their choices is all.  When we were doing our annual, Defend the Roost, we had a WB side match that used cowboy guns, a 1911, and a military bolt action.  We had to change the name to The Professionals to avoid confusion with SASS WB.  These days we have 2 or 3 Bolt Action matches a year.  We shoot low velocity cast bullet rounds at steel from roughly 30 to 90 yards.  

Newt, as one 'wise ass' to another, no offense was taken!  :lol: The Professionals match design is my goal - bolt action military rifle, M97, and a 1911!  One local club, the Texican Rangers, hosts a BAM side match after the monthly Saturday CAS match on targets to about 135 yds. Another, Green Mountain Regulators, includes BAM in their monthly Long Range match which is not timed, but scored on most points, ties broken by most bullseyes, and if necessary a shoot-off.  BAM targets are 100, 150, and 200 yds plus three small targets at 75, 125, and 175 yds.   It's interesting about the growth of BAM.  Locally we have grown in two years to about 18 or so that play at one time or another, and we continue to grow.  Then there are a couple of ringers from East Texas who visit.  There is more growth to be had in nearby clubs.  Comanche Valley Vigilantes in Cleburne, TX must be the home of Texas BAM.  There is more inspiration to be had on the WB wire!

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