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Grouchy Spike

7 Round magazine loads in the 1911 in Wild Bunch!

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1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

I 'play' now, as some of our local clubs have done this for ages. They call these shoots 'The Professionals'.

To go against todays training, that in TODAYS world that can save your live just to play a gun game, makes no sense.

BTW: It was JMB who designed the 1911 for safe 'condition 1' carry. ;)

I have attended Gunsite since Col Cooper opened it. Was in more than one class that he was the instructor. 

Completed Advanced Carbine Class last year and hope to make the Allumi shoot.

Lastly-Going to slide-lock in a real fight, can get your DRT real dang fast.

OLG

 

 

No argument here.  Personally, I have no interest in playing the game.  Then again, I'm happy if they're happy.

 

Do they not start from Condition 1?  I suppose that also makes sense from an historical perspective - in the military, CYA has a higher priority than effective training...

 

I wish I had met the Colonel.  Since you did, then you know better than anyone how revolutionary it was for the times.  My youngest attended FLETC a couple of years back and from what I understand, it's heavily influenced by Gunsite.  I'm pretty impressed with his shooting anyway - his worst days are better than my best days.  :)

 

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WB starts with empty chamber and loaded mag in place,

Cooper was a 'natural' as a teacher. He had knowledge of world history unlike anyone I have ever met in my life.

I first met him in Big bear Lake, CA. at the 'Leather Slaps'.

OLG

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11 hours ago, Grouchy Spike said:

 

HK, please clarify - you already play WB?

 

My experience with the M97 magazine: Use 2 1/2" shotshells from Polywad.com and mods aren't necessary.

 

 

I have played Wild Bunch.  I started playing it under the pre-SASS rules.   I have also played under the SASS rules.   I don't really care for the SASS rules, per se; I prefer the much more open style that existed prior to their creation.  HOWEVER, if the WB match I am at uses the SASS rules, I will happily play according to them.    If I am at a big shoot that has a SASS rules WB match as a part of it, I'll likely particpate, but I would not go out of my way to go to a standalone match using those rules.   That's just me.  

 

By "pre-SASS rules" I mean you could basically use any pre-1918 pistol or revolver, singly or in pairs, reloading as needed.  For rifles, same cut off date.  It varied as to if "rifle caliber" rifles were allowed, either reloading as needed, or using 2 rifles.   Either was fine with me.    Shotguns were, again, same cut off date, any style.  Pumps, levers and autoloaders pre-loaded like a rifle.   That was a very fun game, but those are not the SASS rules.    This type of WB is getting harder and harder to find as the SASS rules come to predominate.    Which is fine in and of itself.   That's just the way it is.

 

I use either Magtech all brass 2-1/2" shells or AAs trimmed to 2-1/2" with a roll crimp.   None of my 97's, nor 93/97 (or for that matter my oringal 93, Burgess or Winchester 87) will hold 6 of these.  Only 5.

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

 

I have played Wild Bunch.  I started playing it under the pre-SASS rules.   I have also played under the SASS rules.   I don't really care for the SASS rules, per se; I prefer the much more open style that existed prior to their creation.  HOWEVER, if the WB match I am at uses the SASS rules, I will happily play according to them.    If I am at a big shoot that has a SASS rules WB match as a part of it, I'll likely particpate, but I would not go out of my way to go to a standalone match using those rules.   That's just me.  

 

By "pre-SASS rules" I mean you could basically use any pre-1918 pistol or revolver, singly or in pairs, reloading as needed.  For rifles, same cut off date.  It varied as to if "rifle caliber" rifles were allowed, either reloading as needed, or using 2 rifles.   Either was fine with me.    Shotguns were, again, same cut off date, any style.  Pumps, levers and autoloaders pre-loaded like a rifle.   That was a very fun game, but those are not the SASS rules.    This type of WB is getting harder and harder to find as the SASS rules come to predominate.    Which is fine in and of itself.   That's just the way it is.

 

I use either Magtech all brass 2-1/2" shells or AAs trimmed to 2-1/2" with a roll crimp.   None of my 97's, nor 93/97 (or for that matter my oringal 93, Burgess or Winchester 87) will hold 6 of these.  Only 5.

 

 

 

Yeah WB pre getting those rules was more fun.  WB committee does not seem to get that.

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Quote

 

JB, are you playing WB now?  If not, will you play in local matches now that 7 in the mag is allowed, if the club makes the change?

 

 

Like
  • Spike, I'm WB RO Certified - bought all the stuff including a Ruger SR 1911 -  Win M12 - brass -  mold for H&G68 and Dillon die set for 45 Auto and shot a few matches.  Since then my interest in WB has diminished.  If our local club WB match director decided that scenarios will be with 7 in the mag  - that's a club decision adjunct to the WB Committee decision for sanctioned matches. Won't loose any sleep over the decision

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I hate the new 7 round rule.  I spent my entire adult life (35 Years) training to reload magazines in my duty pistol.  Changing mags in the 1911 was a breeze for me and gave me an advantage over those people who couldn't figure out which way the mag goes in.  With more bullets in the mag, there will be less reloads and my advantage will decrease.  Hmmmmm.  Now that I think about it, more bullets might mean more shooting.  Ok, maybe "hate" the new rule is a little harsh.  Actually, "I don't care one way or the other" is probably a little more accurate.  I'll just have to count to 7 instead of 5.  No big deal.

 

I like shooting Wild Bunch but only get to shoot it at larger annual matches.  I'm heading off to shoot Wild Bunch at Ambush next weekend.  

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8 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

I 'play' now, as some of our local clubs have done this for ages. They call these shoots 'The Professionals'.

To go against todays training, that in TODAYS world that can save your live just to play a gun game, makes no sense.

BTW: It was JMB who designed the 1911 for safe 'condition 1' carry. ;)

I have attended Gunsite since Col Cooper opened it. Was in more than one class that he was the instructor. 

Completed Advanced Carbine Class last year and hope to make the Allumi shoot.

Lastly-Going to slide-lock in a real fight, can get your DRT real dang fast.

OLG

 

 

It IS a gun game.

 

I knew a woman who shot CASS whose husband was a police firearms instructor.  For all of the reasons cited, he did not participate in gun games.  The mere existence of game rules led to bad habits.

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21 hours ago, Desert Pete SASS #42168 said:

 

It IS a gun game.

 

I knew a woman who shot CASS whose husband was a police firearms instructor.  For all of the reasons cited, he did not participate in gun games.  The mere existence of game rules led to bad habits.

Sounds like BS to me. Probably afraid his wife will out shoot him. ;)

PS my wife is a multi time State and Regional SASS champion. She can out shoot most of the officers on my department. If given a choice of partner in a gunfight, I'll take my wife any day of the week. 

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Wild bunch might be fun to shoot, but I don't really want to have to buy another rifle just to shoot wild bunch, and then there's the added expense and time it takes to set up to reload for a caliber that I wouldn't normally shoot. And that's not counting the expense for the holster.

 

I think that if you want to see more growth you should make it easier for people to get their feet wet to see if they like it.

Just my 2 cents.

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34 minutes ago, Putnam Under said:

Wild bunch might be fun to shoot, but I don't really want to have to buy another rifle just to shoot wild bunch, and then there's the added expense and time it takes to set up to reload for a caliber that I wouldn't normally shoot. And that's not counting the expense for the holster.

 

I think that if you want to see more growth you should make it easier for people to get their feet wet to see if they like it.

Just my 2 cents.

Many clubs, and I believe Cajon is one, that 'modify' the rules some for monthlys.

I believe Cajon calls it 'Pike' class.

Check with JJ.

OLG

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I like the rule change.

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55 minutes ago, Putnam Under said:

Wild bunch might be fun to shoot, but I don't really want to have to buy another rifle just to shoot wild bunch, and then there's the added expense and time it takes to set up to reload for a caliber that I wouldn't normally shoot. And that's not counting the expense for the holster.

 

I think that if you want to see more growth you should make it easier for people to get their feet wet to see if they like it.

Just my 2 cents.

 

Putman, thanks for the post.  All of your concerns are important and shared by many I'm suspect.  I agree with OLG that many if not most clubs would make allowances for local matches, particularly for introductions. 

 

Holster and mag pouches are not so important, as the cowboy holster works and magazines can be staged so that expense would be eliminated.  Granted, the appearance of a 1911 in a six gun holster looks a bit off, but WTH.  Let the spectators deal with that!

 

If the rifle requirement were eased and you didn't have to load for an additional caliber, you would shoot WB? 

 

Can you bang on the door at Cajon Cowboys and make that request for an Open category?  Surely there could be others who are thinking like you do!

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2 hours ago, Grouchy Spike said:

 

Putman, thanks for the post.  All of your concerns are important and shared by many I'm suspect.  I agree with OLG that many if not most clubs would make allowances for local matches, particularly for introductions. 

 

Holster and mag pouches are not so important, as the cowboy holster works and magazines can be staged so that expense would be eliminated.  Granted, the appearance of a 1911 in a six gun holster looks a bit off, but WTH.  Let the spectators deal with that!

 

If the rifle requirement were eased and you didn't have to load for an additional caliber, you would shoot WB? 

 

Can you bang on the door at Cajon Cowboys and make that request for an Open category?  Surely there could be others who are thinking like you do!

Yes I  think the rifle requirement is the main hold back.

 

OLG I'll talk to JJ

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35 minutes ago, Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474 said:

I'd like to see me able to use my 1896 Mausser.

 

Me too!  or a 1903 Springfield!  Or a 30-40 Krag?   5 rounds at targets at 75 yds!  Call it Military category?

 

If you are shooting cast bullets let's exchange recipes by PM. 

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Not using cast for my 1896. It just doesn't seem to like them. If I ever find a good Red 9 again, I'll try, again. 

Now it's just a wall hanger.

As for rifle, how about the Mannlicher Model 85 semi-auto rifle in use. (It came out in 1885)

 

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I like Wild Bunch and shoot it every chance I get.  The five rounds vs seven is no big deal.  Around here there are no "Wild Bunch clubs" and the matches are put on by the regular cowboy clubs using the cowboy ranges so we don't have the conflicts, politics and power struggles others seem to describe. Almost without exception the people who compete in wild bunch matches also compete in cowboy matches. I also compete in steel challenge matches, rimfire matches, muzzleloader matches, subgun matches etc. etc.-all shooting is good.

 

I don't think moving from five in the mag to seven will result in any discernible change in participation, there are those who want to shoot Wild Bunch and those who don't. The ones who don't will just have other excuses. I've often heard it said that wild bunch is not cowboy action shooting with 1911's, but actually it kind of is-and I'm fine with that.

 

 

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If you think back to the big push to make WB into a major game, SASS membership was stagnant so the Wild Bunch was looking for ways to bring in more members.  There was a small, yet dedicated, group who enjoyed the discipline enough to follow through with development of the rules and got the game legitimized but the membership draw came mostly from CAS shooters, not new members.

 

Now, WB enthusiasts are trying to develop stronger participation/membership and have begun to look at some rules that have ruffled feathers for many years.  Will these rule changes bring in more members?  Maybe a few but I don't think it will be significant.  There will always be those who embrace the WB and those who are solely CAS to the bone.  There are others who were alienated by power and caliber requirements.  Perhaps opening up the 1911 specs and shotgun gauges could help.  There is one poster who is adamant about not shooting to slide lock, a action that is NEVER taught in modern self defense as his reason for not entertaining WB.  Well, I was a LEO rangemaster for 25 years and yes, shooting to slide lock, while not optimum, is a reload training discipline that is still taught today.  

 

There are those who say WB isn't CAS with a 1911.  Well, from my saddle, it kinda is since it is piggybacked off of SASS and is primarily CAS shooters wanting to do something a bit different with mostly CAS weapons.  It makes sense from the CAS shooter perspective since they already have most of the equipment.  

 

What would it take to get me to shoot WB?  While I might enjoy dabbling with WB at a monthly, I only own a Kimber Compact.  Deal breaker since it doesn't meet the WB 1911 specs and I don't have any leather.  Shotgun is no issue but I would be more inclined to use a 1895 Winchester or a 1917 Enfield as opposed to a cowboy rifle.  WB isn't enough different to entice me to play given the current rules nor broad enough to cover the many different weapons actually used during the era.

 

Being on a fixed income, my dollars will stay with my first love, CAS.  

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6 hours ago, Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474 said:

Not using cast for my 1896. It just doesn't seem to like them. If I ever find a good Red 9 again, I'll try, again. 

Now it's just a wall hanger.

As for rifle, how about the Mannlicher Model 85 semi-auto rifle in use. (It came out in 1885)

 

Wow! You have a working mod 85!?! Do you use black in it as original spec or do you have a mild smokeless load? Never even seen one of these in person only read about them. Would really like to see a video of that at a bamm match. Now the 85 had detachable magazine didn't it? Do you have a spare mag?  What do you use to make brass for it?  Cool deal ! Dusty Boddams

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24 minutes ago, Dusty Boddems said:

Wow! You have a working mod 85!?! Do you use black in it as original spec or do you have a mild smokeless load? Never even seen one of these in person only read about them. Would really like to see a video of that at a bamm match. Now the 85 had detachable magazine didn't it? Do you have a spare mag?  What do you use to make brass for it?  Cool deal ! Dusty Boddams

 

Whoa pard! Like you, I've read about them, but I'll have to rely on Uberti to produce one! :D

Just saying that while we are changing WB perhaps we could consider other additional firearms.:blush:

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Gotcha! I see now what you mean. Put that one on your buy list! 

Hey clk, did you know that rifle was also built in full auto in addition to the semi auto? 

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Going to 7 round capacity is a step in the right direction.

 

Most of the other criticisms on this thread could be averted if WB would simply add an Open Category. This would allow new participants to play with guns they already own.

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 Several clubs already sorted out your objection by including an Open Class to include 16 gauge pump or a SxS. 

I don't want to buy another shotgun to shoot WB,but if sxs were allowed, it'd be great. 

as to the new mag capacity,the more shooting the better.  also it will break WB out of the usual cas pistol target arrays.   

 

I shot WB for the 1st time this year and had a lot of fun doing it. Being able to shoot more 45acp ammo would have just been that much more fun. !

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On 8/27/2017 at 6:33 PM, Putnam Under said:

Wild bunch might be fun to shoot, but I don't really want to have to buy another rifle just to shoot wild bunch, and then there's the added expense and time it takes to set up to reload for a caliber that I wouldn't normally shoot. And that's not counting the expense for the holster.

 

I think that if you want to see more growth you should make it easier for people to get their feet wet to see if they like it.

Just my 2 cents.

So if you wanted to shoot classic cowboy you wouldn't,  just because you'd have to buy another rifle? But I suppose you'd have to buy 2 more big cal pistols too?

Just think if you bought a  big cal rifle  say a Marlin then you could shoot B Western too if so inclined.! 

Just wondering too if IPSC and UIT or any other similar pistol sports water down rules to allow people to get their feet wet??

Why is it with WB we want to continually change the rules to supposedly get more folks to come and play our game, and away from their existing games. If they like the rules,... they will come, ..if they don't they won't. Simple.

And don't bet that going to 7 rounds will increase numbers, odds are you'll lose just as many who don't like 7 rounds, more ammo, more money, & more tiring for some folks.:rolleyes:

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22 minutes ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said:

So if you wanted to shoot classic cowboy you wouldn't,  just because you'd have to buy another rifle? But I suppose you'd have to buy 2 more big cal pistols too?

Just think if you bought a  big cal rifle  say a Marlin then you could shoot B Western too if so inclined.! 

Just wondering too if IPSC and UIT or any other similar pistol sports water down rules to allow people to get their feet wet??

Why is it with WB we want to continually change the rules to supposedly get more folks to come and play our game, and away from their existing games. If they like the rules,... they will come, ..if they don't they won't. Simple.

And don't bet that going to 7 rounds will increase numbers, odds are you'll lose just as many who don't like 7 rounds, more ammo, more money, & more tiring for some folks.:rolleyes:

Classic cowboy is just a subset rules like heavy metal vs open vs tactical in 3 gun.  Personally I did not see much problem with hoe wild bunch shooting started off.  What was so wrong with them?

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That'll be me-^_^

" There is one poster who is adamant about not shooting to slide lock, a action that is NEVER taught in modern self defense as his reason for not entertaining WB.  Well, I was a LEO rangemaster for 25 years and yes, shooting to slide lock, while not optimum, is a reload training discipline that is still taught today."

I never said 'never'-Just not used as much  as a tactical reload is. In fact, to have a stage now and then with a slide lock reload would be a good thing. 

Let's not even think about one hand reloads and cocking with a 1911. Or, weak hand only, shooting a stage. :lol:

OLG

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12 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Let's not even think about one hand reloads and cocking with a 1911. Or, weak hand only, shooting a stage. :lol:

OLG

Now that would be fun and a challenge.  Bring back shooting on the move and you might interest me even more.:lol:

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Jim-have you ever shot Western 3 Gun?

Cowboys guns, and you be move'n and shoot'n at the same time.

Lots of fun.

OLG

 

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I shot a W3G match during the police Olympics before they moved to SD and stopped offering CAS.  Lefty Longridge ran it in Piru.  You're right, it was a lot of fun.

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On 8/28/2017 at 5:08 PM, Dusty Boddems said:

Gotcha! I see now what you mean. Put that one on your buy list! 

Hey clk, did you know that rifle was also built in full auto in addition to the semi auto? 

 

Yeah, I have seen and fondled handled a couple owned by an Ottawa area General Contractor/millionaire.

This guy didn't just have one of any item, he often had several of the varieties. For example, he didn't just have one Volcanic rifle, he had six!.

A couple of Gatling guns, a number of full auto machine guns, a collection of various SMG's etc

And it wasn't just guns he collected. You name it, he had some.

He even had a Mummy!!, (later donated to the Ottawa School Board by his son.)

OK, enough drooling. A friend of mine got the contract to dispose of the firearm collection after George's death.

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CLK, man sounds like that gentleman was quite the collector!  At least you had the opportunity to handle and admire,that's more than most folks! Dusty Boddams

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On ‎8‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 11:07 PM, Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 said:

Makes NO difference to my not playing the WB game !!!

Allowing 16 ga. to be used In Both 97 and M-12s  might be a game changer ....

Allowing hammered doubles in 16 ga...

Would get me to give it a go ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

Jabez, that is EXCELLENT! Looking forward to seeing you compete in Medicine Hat at the end of the month. Bring your 16 ga SxS!

 

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DDD;

I ani't got no Lead Bullet loads fer my 1911 ,,,,, Nor any Smokeless loads fer da 16 ga.. ,,,,,,,,,,

And I'm planning on shooting CAS south of the line in Montana,,,,, Seems that they got matches every week-end in Sept ...

I might just plan on shooting there more often ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

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I felt a rumble. Was that an earthquake? :unsure: 

 

Oh, the goal posts moved?:ph34r:  Again? :huh:

:lol::D

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