MBFields Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 Crimping brass on a 105 gr bullet. When set bullet on brass have it expanded where it sits to lube line. After it is seated and crimp it randomly looks like bullet is in there crooked and looking closer it appears that the brass is not crimped evenly around bullet. Seating and crimping are 2 separate functions. Using winchester once fired brass and thinking may be brass or I am doing something wrong. Possible that crimping to hard? If so how do you tell what is right crimp? Using a lee factory crimp die. Going to try some starline and see if any difference. Any wisdom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 Unless your deliberately trying to load "long," your crimping in the wrong place. Should be crimping in the crimp groove. Coffinmaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 Crimping brass on a 105 gr bullet. When set bullet on brass have it expanded where it sits to lube line. After it is seated and crimp it randomly looks like bullet is in there crooked and looking closer it appears that the brass is not crimped evenly around bullet. Seating and crimping are 2 separate functions. Using winchester once fired brass and thinking may be brass or I am doing something wrong. Possible that crimping to hard? If so how do you tell what is right crimp? Using a lee factory crimp die. Going to try some starline and see if any difference. Any wisdom? What does this mean? There are some missing words. Are you saying you have the case flared to the point that when you set the bullet on the case it drops down to the lube groove? If so you have way to much flare. The Lee die is easy to set. Run the die down to where it contacts the shell plate and back it off about a turn. Put in a case with the bullet seated to the proper depth and then raise the rammer and screw the crimp screw (on top of the die) down to where it contacts the round. Lower the ram and twist the adjusting screw down about a quarter of a turn. Raise the ram and you should feel the resistance increase as the die crimps. Lower the ram and inspect the round to see if the brass is being turned into the crimp groove. Adjust the die and test the round until you have a nice smooth radius on the case neck. You should feel some resistance but it should not take a massive amount of effort to crimp the round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 The amount of expansion on the case mouth sounds way too much. Expand just enough that the base of the bullet can be set on the brass and the slug settles into case just enough to hold it until you crimp it (at the next station, on a progressive machine, which iit sounds like you are using). Excessive expanding the case mouth can let the bullet sit in the case a little crooked. Lube stuck up in the seater die also can be a problem with bullet seating crooked. Clean your seater die and reduce the expansion to just opening up the mouth, not way down into the case. As for detecting "too much crimp", compare your finished round with a factory crimped round. Should be about the same. Just turn in your case mouth enough to fit into the crimp groove. If not crimping in the groove, just make the mouth turn slightly into the lead band where you are crimping. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBFields Posted December 5, 2016 Author Share Posted December 5, 2016 Trying to run at 1.45 and that seems to be just out of groove, maybe best to seat in groove and not worry so much about oal. Have an uberty 73 and does not seem to bother when have put a shorter oal in on purpose.Never really had a good explanation on how much to expand till now so thanks for that info, that may solve a lot of the issue. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 Never really had a good explanation on how much to expand till now The case should be expanded so that 1/2 of the bullet base is inside the case with lead bullets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBFields Posted December 5, 2016 Author Share Posted December 5, 2016 When you say half are you referring to the base below the lube line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 You want the bullet's base to just clear the case mouth without contacting the edge of the case's mouth. Tell us what bullet you are using so we can better help you and not have to guess. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripsaw Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 I bell the cases just enough to avoid shaving lead on seating the bullet. Seat with one die, crimp with another. The less you bell, the less you work harden the cases and the longer they will last. I'm using a SDB press so seat and crimp are separate steps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodyMaverick Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 I bell the cases just enough to avoid shaving lead on seating the bullet. Seat with one die, crimp with another. The less you bell, the less you work harden the cases and the longer they will last. I'm using a SDB press so seat and crimp are separate steps. Me too, different press but same approach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 I use Lee dies normally plus add the factory crimp die on my 550 just bell enough so that the bullet will slide in the case without lead removals or the case wrinkling. I set my to wrinkle then open it up or bell more until the bullet seats without problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sloe Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 The "flare/bell" that you put at the top of the case is to assist the lead bullet to slide into the case without shaving lead off. Flare it just enough that the bullet starts into the case. BS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rio Brazos Kid Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 Only bell the case enough that it doesn't shave lead when seating the bullet. This means VERY LITTLE. Belling heavily only work hardens the brass, and shortens brass life, as well as causing other loading problems. Then, for all straight sided pistol caliber ammo, (and that does include 44-40), Final crimp with a Redding Profile Crimp die. NOT the Lee factory crimp die. On straight sided pistol cases, the profile crimp die is light years ahead of the Lee FC die. For Bottle Neck ammo cases, the Lee Factory Crimp die, (Collet Type), is the best on the planet. However the Redding Profile Crimp die, (for straight sided pistol cases), beats the Lee FC die hands down. This die will be just the ticket for crimping the OP's 105 gr. bullets in the lube groove or the crimp groove either one. RBK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBFields Posted December 6, 2016 Author Share Posted December 6, 2016 I do have a redding profile crimp die, may try that. Using Dillon 650, as stated above 105 gr bullets and seat and crimp two separate operations. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 I bell the cases just enough to avoid shaving lead on seating the bullet. Seat with one die, crimp with another. The less you bell, the less you work harden the cases and the longer they will last. I'm using a SDB press so seat and crimp are separate steps. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 Stick with roll crimp. Lee FCD is a great investment. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655 Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 I only use one die to seat and crimp and have never had problems. It does help if brass is reasonably close to the same length. My method is to first set the die to seat the bullet where I want it. I then back out the seating stem and adjust the die to crimp properly on the previously seated bullet, then with the crimped bullet still in the die turn the seating stem down to contact the bullet. As others have stated I expand the least amount possible to allow seating of bullets without shaving lead. Measure you cases it there is more than a couple of thousands difference and you are not getting proper crimps, you may have to either trim to uniform length or vary the setting of the crimp die. I have never had to trim pistol brass. Generally straight walled cases will shrink a bit, bottle necked will grow if the shoulder is pushed back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 I believe it was Lord Kelvin who said that you don't really understand something until you can describe it with numbers. I use a Dillon 550 with Dillon dies. My .38 Special cases are resized to .372 outside diameter at the first station. Belling at the second station opens the case mouth outside diameter to .395. I get good case life and no problems with the Dillon roll crimp set to a very firm crimp. I gauge each finished round, yes every one of them because I will not risk an out of battery ignition, and discard less than one round in 200. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBFields Posted December 6, 2016 Author Share Posted December 6, 2016 Mine are .375 outside diam after sizing and .381 after belled, that is one operation while seating primer, if go to your opening that is where I was and the bullet sits down to the lube groove. Going by what others are saying that is to wide so now not sure what is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 This really isn't rocket science but let's start at the beginning. First, what kind of reloading machine are you using? Second, what is the diameter of your bullets? Third is your bullet flat based or bevel based? Assuming you have .357 or .358 bullets and did not accidently buy bullets sized for the 9mm try this. Size your brass. Set a bullet on top of the case. It should not be going into the case at this point. Raise your flaring die so that it is not flaring. Start raising and lowering the ram and gradually lowering the flare die and check by setting a bullet on top of the case. When the base of the bullet just sets in the case mouth instead of sitting on top of it you have enough flare. Posting some photos would also be useful so we have some idea of what you are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBFields Posted December 6, 2016 Author Share Posted December 6, 2016 Dillon 650. 38 spl. Tnc, bevel based, they are .357-.358. Larsen that is what I am trying to accomplish by measuring flare and setting bullet on it. Getting there. Have done this for 3yrs but this year seemed kind of wonky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 Garrison Joe made a good suggestion; remove the crimp die and make sure it is clean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mackenna Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 Dillon 650. 38 spl. Tnc, bevel based, they are .357-.358. Larsen that is what I am trying to accomplish by measuring flare and setting bullet on it. Getting there. Have done this for 3yrs but this year seemed kind of wonky. MB If you are using dillon dies the crimp die works just like the redding profile crimp die. Call dillon help and they will help you out on understanding how to adjust the accu-crimp die. Mackenna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 Left to right. 105 grain bevel base bullet. Bullet sitting on top of sized case. Bullet sitting on flared case. Bullet crimped with Lee FCD. The flare in this case might actually be a little more than needed. This flare is designed to work with a bullet feeder. It has a tiny step in it to hold the bullet in place when the bullet drops from the feeder. A normal flare is just a SMALL funnel at the mouth of the case to help prevent the bullet from falling off the case when the ram is raised and to prevent lead shaving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Scratch Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 I want green brass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 I want green brass Shoot BP and let it set for a month or two before cleaning it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBFields Posted December 7, 2016 Author Share Posted December 7, 2016 Larsen, Great pics. My flare is not quite as much as you stated might be a bit more than needed. Mine sit up a tad higher so that the lube groove is even or a bit higher than casing. That is what needed to see. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G W Wade Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 I want green brass Someone posted here, Try green lizard bedding if you want green brass GW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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