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Cheyenne Culpepper 32827

Has anyone ever seen the 170 broken by picking up a dropped round?

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Trying to fix a non-problem. Keep the rule

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Never seen it happen!! Have seen a bobbled shotgun shell caught in mid air tho!! No the shooter never even came close to breaking the 170 either?...

 

Rule should go bye bye !!

 

Spades H.

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we played this game for a good many years without the "dropped round is dead" rule. I can't remember anyone ever breaking the 170 while catching or retrieving a dropped or ejected round. I thought it was a dumb rule when passed and still think so.

 

It is a rule requiring a safety penalty for doing something that in and of itself is not unsafe! That dilutes respect for the penalties for doing something that IS unsafe.

 

Let's try a little argumentum reducto absurdium:

 

MSV if you retrieve a dropped round because doing so may cause you to do something unsafe

MSV to reload an ejected or dropped round because you may drop the reload which may cause you to try to retrieve it which may cause you to do something unsafe.

MSV if you load more than one round in your long gun because you may accidently eject a round which may cause you to attempt to reload it which may cause you to attempt to retrieve it which may cause you to do something unsafe........ultimately we wind up pointing our index finger at the target and shouting bang because it's the only way to avoid a MSV!

 

The rule is unnecessary - bag it.

 

The additional benefit is our rule book will be a paragraph shorter.

 

Wild Shot

 

(note:no electrons were dropped or unsafely retrieved while composing this message)

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you may want to read up on that!!!

 

an illegal round used is counted as a miss, and a P and time spent,,, in the above case it wasn't an illegal round.

I was referring to a shooter that drops a round. Retrieves the dropped round. Loads round and fires. Hits target. I see it as the retrieval equals MSV. On loading it and shooting it, does it not become illegally aquired ammo at this point? If so then a miss and P. Now, I didn't add the P but how is it not illegally aquire ammo?

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I was referring to a shooter that drops a round. Retrieves the dropped round. Loads round and fires. Hits target. I see it as the retrieval equals MSV. On loading it and shooting it, does it not become illegally aquired ammo at this point? If so then a miss and P. Now, I didn't add the P but how is it not illegally aquire ammo?

 

Read the definition of "illegally acquired ammo" (RO1 "Glossary of Terms" p.30).

We usually assume that the dropped round was brought to the stage "in an approved manner" (REF SHB p.11)

..if so, it cannot be considered "illegally acquired".

That generally applies to ammo handed to a shooter by another person during the stage or a round overloaded in a rifle that the shooter fails to eject at the end of the shooting string.

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Blue Wolf

 

Here is an example of retrieving an ejected/dropped round.

 

During a rifle run a shooter ejects a round, that was legally brought to the firing line in the rife, he reaches out and catches that very round, in mid air, which is a dead round as soon as it leaves the rifle. At the moment he catches the round he earns a MSV for retrieving a dead round. Once he retrieves that dead round that was legally brought to the line it once again becomes a live round "Lazarus Rule" and if reloaded and used to hit the appropriate target in the correct sequence it is NOT a miss

 

Any variation involving long guns and ejected/dropped rounds has the same outcome. A MSV and NO miss

 

This rule/call has been misunderstood and applied incorrectly by all levels of participants from new shooter to RO Instructors and Range Masters at Regionals.

 

If the dropped rule goes away so do the bad/wrong calls

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and that is one of the reasons this rule needs to go away!!!!

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and that is one of the reasons this rule needs to go away!!!!

I disagree. The shooter should know not to retrieve a dead round. Same (but unnecessary and flawed) argument; "How many times have you seen a shooter snatch an ejected (dead) round out of mid-air?" It is so very seldom as to deserve the answer, "Never." The topic question/argument holds about as much water as, "How many times have you seen a cat chase a dog up a tree?" That, too occurs rarely enough as to deserve the answer, "Never." The shooter should know better than to even attempt it.....because it is illegal, for sound reasons. It has nothing....zero....a null set even, to do with how the round was "acquired," brought to the firing line, and then made its way to the ground, or went spinning through the air.

 

Again, virtually EVERYONE KNOWS that retrieving a dropped (or ejected), dead round is illegal. THEREFORE, few shooters even try to do it. SO YES, you rarely or never see a shooter break the 170 attempting to retrieve a dead round. BUT.....you'll see a lot of people doing just that (breaking the 170), if the "dropped round rule" is rescinded or abolished. This rule is a safety barrier.... Leave it alone. Tell your TG to Vote NO.

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Reply hereonly if you have seen someone break the 170 picking up a dropped round!!!

 

I was going to reply, but then I read your caveat. So I will not post anything, you can infer what you will from my silence on the matter. :wacko:

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Goody,,,,, hmmmm you still get a P for not following instructions!!!! neener neener.

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Goody,,,,, hmmmm you still get a P for not following instructions!!!! neener neener.

 

 

Well, that's not fair. That's not how they do it where I shoot all the time. At home you have to have all three spotters, the TO and four members of the peanut gallery agree before you get a 'P'. :angry:

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Cat, please explain to me why it should be a msv for me to clear a jam in my '92 and use that cartridge. I safely cleared the jam, and have dumped the cartridge into my hand, all WITHOUT violating the 170, what is dangerous about me using it? This is a rule that is looking for a reason for being, it needs to be gone.

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Well, that's not fair. That's not how they do it where I shoot all the time. At home you have to have all three spotters, the TO and four members of the peanut gallery agree before you get a 'P'. :angry:

ah grasshopper, my thread, my rules,,,, only the TO needs to agree on a P,,,, neener neener

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Well, my work here is done. I'm needed elsewhere now. I'm needed wherever outlaws rule the West, wherever innocent women and children are afraid to walk the streets, wherever a man cannot live in simple dignity, wherever a people cry out for justice. ;)

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Cat, if you like the rule so much, why have you not responded to those that logically extend the rule for "safety" reasons?

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Cat, please explain to me why it should be a msv for me to clear a jam in my '92 and use that cartridge. I safely cleared the jam, and have dumped the cartridge into my hand, all WITHOUT violating the 170, what is dangerous about me using it? This is a rule that is looking for a reason for being, it needs to be gone.

What you're describing is perfectly legal. It was either in the gun or in your hand. You had control of said round. Now, had you ejected it onto the table or the ground or mid air, it's now dead.

 

And THAT is exactly why the rule needs to go away. It's misunderstood. Please don't take offense but had you been RO for someone who did what you described and gave a MSV, it would have been incorrect!

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Boggus, I dumped the cartridge into my hand then dropped it on the table that time, sometimes it just rolls out onto the table or prop. I just do not understand how using that round is in any way, shape, or form unsafe.

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Boggus, I dumped the cartridge into my hand then dropped it on the table that time, sometimes it just rolls out onto the table or prop. I just do not understand how using that round is in any way, shape, or form unsafe.

For then and for now, just accept it as a rule..Same as, you can not leave LT with loaded pistols in your holsters to go to your cart. Just another layer of safety the founders though was necessary,,, and not all that bad seeing some of the shooters that partisipates in this wonderful hobby.

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I didn't know that, Griff. I don't think I'd want anyone to hand me a replacement round.

Cat Brules

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sort of,,,, but yes, so we have 2 maybe 3 cases....

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I saw a shooter pick up a dropped round at the end of a Stage. His cross draw pistol fell out of the holster and broke the 170.

 

Does this count ?

 

sort of,,,, but yes, so we have 2 maybe 3 cases....

 

Does it really? That action (picking up a dropped round at the end of the stage) is specifically ALLOWED under the rule that is up for deletion.

That exception allowing the shooter to do so is part of the extensive verbiage of the rule "as written".

REF: #24

 

Shooter's choice whether to bend over to pick up ANYTHING with an unsecured revolver in a holster...and there is an existing (DQ) penalty that applies if the firearm happens to fall out (even without breaking the 170º)

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. . . Just another layer of safety the founders though was necessary,,, and not all that bad seeing some of the shooters that partisipates in this wonderful hobby.

As a fact check, the rule was not added until sometime just prior to 2000. So for about 13 years, the rule was no in existence. And it was explained as a preemptive rule rather than an actual safety rule.

 

This rule in addition to some others have have been modified or deleted.

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As a fact check, the rule was not added until sometime just prior to 2000. So for about 13 years, the rule was no in existence. And it was explained as a preemptive rule rather than an actual safety rule.

 

This rule in addition to some others have have been modified or deleted.

Correct me if I get this incorrect. What you are saying is that the original rule was that retreiving/use of a dropped round duriing the course of the shooting stage, by the shooter, was forbidden,,, just a rule. Some time later, it was modified to a safety rule.

 

For the first 13years, this rule did not exit.. Something happened that caused concern about what was happening, thus this rule was developed and put into the rule books.

 

Thanks

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What happened was that some believed that adding additional layers of safety would help the game. Although that may sound like it works, it actually can degrade safety by making thing more complicated. More complicated is almost never safer.

 

I believe the same group also caused the confusion about missing being procedures and procedures being misses. So we got the flow chart and doubled the size of the hand book. I think they feared that someone would shoot the pistol targets with the rifle and not get a 30 second (Spirit of the Game) penalty, so they devised a way to give 60 seconds of penalty that would always be enforced..

 

I remember when the new rule about the dropped round was enacted. We were shooting and a shooter ejected a round that fell on the table in front of him - less than a foot from him. He automatically picked it up and thus got the penalty. We all thought it was silly, but that was the new rule.

 

Maybe Griff or other folks from the time could fill in more completely.

 

So it was more a reaction of fear rather than actual incident.

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What happened was that some believed that adding additional layers of safety would help the game. Although that may sound like it works, it actually can degrade safety by making thing more complicated. More complicated is almost never safer.

 

I believe the same group also caused the confusion about missing being procedures and procedures being misses. So we got the flow chart and doubled the size of the hand book. I think they feared that someone would shoot the pistol targets with the rifle and not get a 30 second (Spirit of the Game) penalty, so they devised a way to give 60 seconds of penalty that would always be enforced..

 

I remember when the new rule about the dropped round was enacted. We were shooting and a shooter ejected a round that fell on the table in front of him - less than a foot from him. He automatically picked it up and thus got the penalty. We all thought it was silly, but that was the new rule.

 

Maybe Griff or other folks from the time could fill in more completely.

 

So it was more a reaction of fear rather than actual incident.

Who was the : 'some', 'same group'?

 

Silly? could be, but not a deal breaker or the end of the world. There still are 'silly' things associated with this game. The whole game is silly when one steps back and looks at it. :D

 

Fear can be good.,, like fear of being shot by someone who is careless.

 

Any how, thanks for the history lesson

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Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

Boggus, I dumped the cartridge into my hand then dropped it on the table that time, sometimes it just rolls out onto the table or prop. I just do not understand how using that round is in any way, shape, or form unsafe.

Its your barrel but there could be grit stuck to the lube...

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Nope, short stroking the lever is what causes the jams. Get one about every seven or eight matches. I just have to pay attention to my levering.

 

My point here is I do not understand why people get their shorts in a knot over this silly rule. There is nothing unsafe about using a round that is laying on a prop or table. Hopefully the TG's will finally get their stuff together and do away with this abomination.

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Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

Nope, short stroking the lever is what causes the jams. Get one about every seven or eight matches. I just have to pay attention to my levering.

 

My point here is I do not understand why people get their shorts in a knot over this silly rule. There is nothing unsafe about using a round that is laying on a prop or table. Hopefully the TG's will finally get their stuff together and do away with this abomination.

 

Oh but i was referring to whatever it picks up rolling around on a pristine surface jus prior to sticking it back into your gun :blink:

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Oh but i was referring to whatever it picks up rolling around on a pristine surface jus prior to sticking it back into your gun :blink:

 

That would be a risk that the shooter takes by making the decision to retrieve a dropped round...instead of going to belt/pouch/bandolier/...etc, for another one to replace the one ejected/dropped (assuming the shooter has extra round(s) on his/her person.

 

FWIW (regarding the history of the rule)

I was "in the room" when the original rule was being discussed by the TGs.

One solution to the perceived "problem" was to allow retrieval from knee height and above (based on whose knees?)

...another was to forbid retrieving any round that fell farther than the height of a "standard" bale of hay

...question was then asked, "What size bale made by what model baler?"

...and the decision was "Six feet or 6 inches...dropped is dropped." PERIOD.

 

The rule has been rewritten/modified a few times since then.

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It would seem to suck to sub consciously catch a dropped round and then have to remember to let go of it. Just to get another one out of your belt. I can agree with it hitting the ground just for safety's sake. But landing right in front of you on the table seems a better place to grab it than having to possibly look down at your belt for another one. I'm good either way with the rule.

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Just how many MSV does it take before such shooter learns to not go for the fumbled/dropped round? :(

At least 2 and don't ask how I know that.

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