.44-40 loading for dummies....like me!

[Irish Red OToole, #48939]

Ammunition reloading geekness coming, so if you want...tune out now.

 

Ok, I had a kaboom in my rifle recently and I've been scrambling to have something to shoot. I have rifles in both .357 and .44-40 but no way to load for them. I've got another reloading press inbound (ETA is Tuesday!!) to handle .38s and the like but I wanted to do the larger calibers in addition to .45 Colt that I already load on my existing press. So, today the FedEx truck brings me my complete 650 setup to load .44-40 for smokeless and I've been busy setting it up.

 

I got the resizing and powder stations almost done (just have to fine tune the powder charge) so now I tackle the seating and crimping stations. Well, the only die set I was able to get my hands on was the Lee. It seats and crimps with the same die. In a perfect world, I would have gotten a Lee Factory Crimp die and just used the set die to seat. Not available to me at this time. So.....I know its critical to set the die to seat and crimp at the same time and I think I figured out a fast way to set it. I put a bullet in a belled case (no powder) and pushed it in to just the right spot in the crimp groove. I ran the round up to the seat/crimp die. Before I did, I pulled the seating ram and screw adjustment out so I wouldn't have to mess with two adjustments at once.

 

Once the round was all the way up, I screwed the crimp die down 1/16 of a turn at a time until the crimp was solid. I checked for bulging by using a chamber check die to make sure it fit. My first attempt at loading .44-40 for blackpowder resulted in many of the rounds not fitting in the chambers of my pistol. I later found out that it's easy to bulge the case mouth by over-crimping.

 

Then I put the dummy round back in the crimp die and reinserted the seating ram and screw until it stopped. This way it wouldn't push the bullet into the case too far. Then to test it, I did a half dozen more dummy's and checked them all against the chamber check die. All fit perfectly.

 

I'm pretty new to loading for this round and know some of you have been loading the big bottleneck for awhile. How does what I did compare with your experiences with .44-40?

[Stoney Creek]

What you did on your 44/40 set up was right on the mark.

 

The current set up I am using for 44/40 is to seat with a RCBS die and to crimp with a Lee factory crimp on a 550B

 

I load range brass (my own with various headstamps) and don't sort by tribe. This is for Wild Bunch and the loads are 205 gr.RNFP over Trail Boss and are loaded to make the power factor.

 

About every 100 rounds or so a couple won't easily drop into the chamber. The problem seems to be crimp related and occurs mostly on those brass brands that are heavier like Star Line.

 

I lube all my brass with Lyman Qwik Spray before loading. It really smooths out the lever stroke for the resizing stage.

 

Some folks here on the wire are partial to the Redding Proflie Crimp Die for 44/40. I have one on order.

 

 

Stoney

 

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

I don't load .44-40 but I agree that you followed the right process in setting up your seating die.

 

Hand loaders have been using combination seat/crimp dies for decades with good results. I load all of my revolver ammo with three die sets that seat and crimp in one operation.

[No Horse Hair, SASS #77464]

I have more reject (slightly oversize) reloads when I use .429 bullets. I try to use .427 or .428 and don't worry about groove diameters for what we shoot. I use the cylinder on one of my Rugers for check guage.

[Dash Caliber]

I have more reject (slightly oversize) reloads when I use .429 bullets. I try to use .427 or .428 and don't worry about groove diameters for what we shoot. I use the cylinder on one of my Rugers for check guage.

+1..with soft lead .428 is just about perfect

[stepnmud#33546]

I have more reject (slightly oversize) reloads when I use .429 bullets. I try to use .427 or .428 and don't worry about groove diameters for what we shoot. I use the cylinder on one of my Rugers for check guage.

This is what worked for me. Also using the brass like Winchester or Starline.

[BLACKFOOT SASS #11947]

That's pretty well along the lines of the Lee instructions.

 

Lafitte

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Congratulations

 

You have written a textbook description of how to set up a seating/crimp die to seat and crimp in one step. You got it exactly right.

 

Many die sets come with instructions for how to set up the seating/crimp die both to seat and crimp in one step or to only seat in the seating/crimp die. Take it from me, it IS NOT absolutely necessary to seat and crimp separately for 44-40. I did it exactly the same way you describe for years.

 

There are however a few things to be aware of. I have always said that 44-40 is not difficult to load, but it does tend to be a bit fussy.

 

First off, as you have no doubt discovered, the brass at the neck of the 44-40 round is much thinner than the brass for other rounds such as 45 Colt. That's why 44-40 obturates so well to seal the chamber when shooting Black Powder. The thin brass expands better at relatively low pressure and seals the chamber better than thicker brass such as 45 Colt.

 

But that thin brass is also the Achilles's heel of 44-40. On average, 44-40 is around .007 thick at the case mouth. 45 Colt is around .012 thick. The thinness can cause problems.

 

Here is what is happening inside the die when you seat and crimp any caliber in one step. The seating stem holds the bullet stationary as the brass rises up and 'swallows' the bullet. When the case mouth encounters the restriction in the die that forms the crimp, the case mouth begins to fold over inwards. When every thing is set up correctly, The case stops rising at the point where the brass has rolled over and formed a crimp in the crimp groove. This is the point that stuff gets fussy. If one is a little bit careless setting up the die for 45 Colt, and the brass continues to rise so that the case mouth butts into the bullet at the underside of the top of the crimp groove; if the brass keeps rising a few more thousandths, it will bulldoze its way into the lead, actually biting into the lead. No problem, the crimp is formed. But that thin brass at the mouth of the 44-40 is not rigid enough to bite into the lead. The classic reason a bulge forms under the bullet with 44-40 is the brass kept rising just a tad too much, the case mouth butted up against the underside of the top of the crimp groove, and the case mouth stopped, unable to bite into the bullet because it is too weak. Instead what happens is the case keeps rising a few more thousandths, and something has to give. So the brass just below the bullet crumples. Classic, textbook example of a seating/crimp die not set quite right for 44-40.

 

Here is a simple trick to avoid this happening. Seat the bullet in the case so that when the crimp is formed there will be a hairline of space between the case mouth and the underside of the top of the crimp groove.

 

Like this:

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/cartridges/4440crimp.jpg

 

Actually, the gap is a little bit exaggerated in that photo, usually about .005 - .010 is plenty. What this does is ensure that the brass never butts into the lead as the case rises to form the crimp. If you use this simple trick, you will avoid this:

 

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/cartridges/44-40crumpled.jpg

 

 

or this:

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/cartridges/badcrumple.jpg

 

I am going to recommend that you sacrifice a couple of more bullets and cases, and tweak your die just a bit to allow for that gap. Even if you don't tweak anything, it is always a good idea to have a few dummy rounds kicking around to help you reset the dies if you ever have reason to change the settings. Like using a different bullet.

 

 

OK, a couple of other things about loading 44-40. Bullet diameter. What diameter bullets are you using?

 

You have not mentioned what the rifle is that you are loading 44-40 for. I'll bet you have not slugged the bore either. You are probably OK, most modern rifles chambered for 44-40 use barrels that have a rifling groove diameter of .429, the same as a 44 Special or 44 Magnum. However I have several 44-40 rifles that have .427 diameter grooves. The classic formula for lead bullets is to use a bullet .001 larger in diameter than the rifling groove diameter. So for a .429 barrel a .430 bullet would be in order. The problem with that is that some rifles have tight chambers. A .430 bullet is going to bump the diameter of the case mouth .002 more than a .428 bullet will. That may or may not cause a problem with chambering the rounds if you have a tight chamber. As an example, my Uberti 1873 has a rifling groove diameter of .427. It will chamber rounds using .427 or .428 bullets just fine. But a .429 bullet bumps the case mouth up in diameter just enough to make the round a little bit stubborn to chamber. The solution for this is to use brass with the thinnest case mouth possible. This gives you a little bit of leeway if you need to use 'fat' bullets in a tight chamber. Winchester 44-40 brass has always had the thinnest case mouth of any I have used, right around .007. The problem with Winchester brass is that it is not always easily available. For the last few years I have been using Starline 44-40 brass because it is more readily available than Winchester. My Starline brass does tend to be a tad thicker at the case mouth than Winchester, maybe .001, but I have not had any problem chambering Starline 44-40 rounds. I used to load .427 bullets exclusively with 44-40, but when I bought my 1860 Henry a few years ago with it's .429 diameter rifling grooves, I bumped my bullet diameter up to .428. I sure am not going to be loading 44-40 with different bullet diameters for different rifles. Of course my bullets are dead soft, pure lead, and they may be bumping up in diameter in the .429 bore, then again, they may not. Accuracy is fine.

 

The other thing to be aware of with that fragile neck of the 44-40 is that if you slam the case mouth into the bottom of your sizing die you will probably crumple the neck and ruin it. Once you have your 650 all set up the tendency is to zoom along at top speed making ammo. That is fine for 45 Colt, if a case happens to sit a little bit crooked in your shell plate, and happens to bump into the flat bottom of the sizing die, the sturdier 45 Colt brass will probably shrug off the impact. Do the same thing with a 44-40 and you will probably ruin it. I load 44-40 on my Hornady Lock & Load AP progressive and I learned a long time ago to throttle back a bit on the speed when loading 44-40. That way I can feel it if a case bumps into the seating die and I am not shoving it so hard that I ruin the case. I always load 44-40 at a slower pace than I do 45 Colt.

 

One more thing and then I will shut up. Most 44-40 die sets come with a expander plug for .427 bullets. If you are using bullets around .428, .429, or .430 you are exerting more friction against the brass as the bullet telescopes down into the brass. This can sometimes lead to crumpling of the neck. If you are getting case crumples, with 'larger' bullets, an expander plug from a 44 Special/44 Mag die set will be a couple of thousandths larger in diameter, and will expand the brass a tad more, so that there is less friction as the bullet seats, resulting in less crumples.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

In the Uberti '73 rifle that was used by Crazy Mingo and now by me I use .429 Big Lube 200gr projectiles made by Slim-Pony - they are excellent.Crazy Mingo recommended that since he used different projectiles and brass and found out that the combination of Starline Brass and the .429 works best for THAT rifle.

 

GG ~

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Everything DJ said, +1. Excellent tips.

 

44-40 is a finicky cartridge to load, and many revolvers over the years have been cut with the neck of the chamber really tight (so that trying to load a.429 bullet which might be a great fit for the bore results in too-large-a-neck-diameter problems in the loaded cartridge). Starline brass makes the problem even worse, as the brass is a little thicker than Winchester and Remington.

 

So, this is where the Redding Profile Crimp die helps a lot. It crimps not only on the actual crimp spot, but also along the neck area (only slightly). This slight "resizing" of the neck seems to really help with chambering problems. And the Redding die does this part better than the Lee Factory Crimp. I've tried both. The micrometer does not lie. The Redding is just machined to tighten the neck better than the Lee.

 

But, a long term solution is to have any revolvers with really tight chamber necks (and/or too tight throats) uniformed out to the modern version of the SAAMI specs. So that a .429 or even a .430 bullet can be loaded and fired. Most new revolvers seem to be using .429 groove diameter barrels (aka, .44 special barrels) rather than the old .427 (or even smaller) groove diameter that .44 WCF started with. With the cylinder tuned to slightly larger dimensions, then you can load any type of brass with a bullet as large as you need for the best accuracy.

 

Uberti seemed to learn this lesson a few years ago, as they use a generous size reamer to chamber their toggle rifles. Folks normally have little problem with a '73 or '66 chambering their reloads. Problems galore with revolvers, especially Ruger Vaqueros, however.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880]

I have border rifles in .357, .44-40 and .45 Colt so I pretty much save the .44-40 for bp. The good thing about bp is that the full case of powder, compressed when the bullet is seated, prevents the bullet from telescoping into the case which is one of the reasons for a good crimp to begin with. With bp a much lighter crimp will suffice, at least for use in the rifle.

 

I also like to load efficiently by eliminating extra steps whenever possible. So, while I am willing to mix alloy, cast, size and lube my bullets for bp (necessary steps), I avoid measuring or trimming the OAL of my .44-40 brass by using a Lee factory crimp die. I seat the bullets with the normal combination seat/crimp die but back the die off so I'm only seating the bullet at the next to last station. This Lee FCD crimps using a collet that is much less sensitive to overall case length than the methods so well described in the OP and by Driftwood. I use Big Lube bullets and I size them to .429 for use in my rifle and .44 Colt opentops. I did swap the expander plug for one from a .44 magnum die set.

 

Driftwood often correctly points out that one doesn't NEED a factory crimp die but they are reasonably priced and very useful.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

Order up one of these and don't look back.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/124080/redding-profile-crimp-die-44-40-wcf

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

I have border rifles in .357, .44-40 and .45 Colt so I pretty much save the .44-40 for bp. The good thing about bp is that the full case of powder, compressed when the bullet is seated, prevents the bullet from telescoping into the case which is one of the reasons for a good crimp to begin with. With bp a much lighter crimp will suffice, at least for use in the rifle.

 

I also like to load efficiently by eliminating extra steps whenever possible. So, while I am willing to mix alloy, cast, size and lube my bullets for bp (necessary steps), I avoid measuring or trimming the OAL of my .44-40 brass by using a Lee factory crimp die. I seat the bullets with the normal combination seat/crimp die but back the die off so I'm only seating the bullet at the next to last station. This Lee FCD crimps using a collet that is much less sensitive to overall case length than the methods so well described in the OP and by Driftwood. I use Big Lube bullets and I size them to .429 for use in my rifle and .44 Colt opentops. I did swap the expander plug for one from a .44 magnum die set.

 

Driftwood often correctly points out that one doesn't NEED a factory crimp die but they are reasonably priced and very useful.

 

 

Order up one of these and don't look back.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/124080/redding-profile-crimp-die-44-40-wcf

I use the Lee Factory Crimp die, but the Redding one looks to do about the same. These dies will resize your finished case and minimize oversize rounds. Properly adjusted, brass length is much less relevant.

 

CR

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy Again

 

Actually, with my method case length is irrelevant too. I have never trimmed a piece of brass in my life.

 

Before setting my seating/crimp die I measured about ten cases for length. I then selected the longest ones to use for setting up my seating/crimp die. Using my method of leaving a hairline of space, with the longest cases, cases that are shorter automatically have a slightly wider hairline of space between the case mouth and the underside of the top of the crimp groove. It is foolproof. I have never trimmed a case for length, and I never get bulged brass.

[Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223]

Just make sure your COAL does not exceed 1.60". In a Uberti 73 this is the max. length. In my 92 I can go to 1.610".

As JD described in his so eloquent way, I also seat & crimp with the hair-line at the crimp groove. This leaves room for the roll or crimp to not distort the case mouth.

 

I like to seat my 44WCF bullets to a maximum of COAL 1.595" and on the average 1.590"

 

If I load on the Dillon Square Deal I seat & crimp in two steps. When I load on the RCBS Rock Chucker & use my RCBS Cowboy dies I seat & crimp with the seating die.

 

BTW; FWIW, the RCBS Cowboy dies are the best 44WCF dies. Just my opinion you understand.

[Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223]

If you use the Lee FCD, make sure you keep the inside of the die and collet clean. Lube & crud build-up will lead to some crazy crimps and an early collet failure.

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

IROT, your technique is good but your choice of propellants sucks! Load them pretty cases up with something that SMOKES!

Driftwood's giving you good advise. I'd use .428s and RCBS Cowboy dies with a full case of PROPER propellant! Now all you need is a set of pistols to go with the rifle and a BSS so you can give IJ some grief!

[Texas Lizard]

IROT, your technique is good but your choice of propellants sucks! Load them pretty cases up with something that SMOKES!

Driftwood's giving you good advise. I'd use .428s and RCBS Cowboy dies with a full case of PROPER propellant! Now all you need is a set of pistols to go with the rifle and a BSS so you can give IJ some grief!

That was my thought also...But he's bigger than me...Nothing better than good smoke...Makes spotters just love you...

[Irish Red OToole, #48939]

Beartrap and Lizard, rest assured I have another complete 650 setup for BP loading and I will once again walk on the dark side with you all real soon. I already have a pair of Vaqueros and a 73 in .44-40 and a nice Stoeger SxS, so thankfully, equipment purchase isn't necessary. In the meantime, I've ordered one of the Redding Profile Crimp Dies. Just looking for more options to continue shooting.

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

Howdy Again

 

Actually, with my method case length is irrelevant too. I have never trimmed a piece of brass in my life.

 

Before setting my seating/crimp die I measured about ten cases for length. I then selected the longest ones to use for setting up my seating/crimp die. Using my method of leaving a hairline of space, with the longest cases, cases that are shorter automatically have a slightly wider hairline of space between the case mouth and the underside of the top of the crimp groove. It is foolproof. I have never trimmed a case for length, and I never get bulged brass.

In my case, God made a better fool. Your system has worked for me in every other caliber I've loaded over the last 40+ years. But with the 44-40, I have found that the one out of a couple of hundred that fail to chamber will show up in a big match. The Lee factory crimp die has changed that. I still run every loaded round through a cylinder out of my Ruger. If it chambers, guaranteed no problems in the rifle.

 

CR