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Cheyenne Culpepper 32827

another hypo What's the call?

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shooter shoots 4 out of pistol and holsters, pulls second pistol and cocks it as TO hollers one more, shooter holsters second pistol without removing hand from second pistol, pulls first pistol back out and fires it, then pulls second pistol and fires it dry,,,,

 

 

What's the call, and why?

 

pbcc

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Cheyenne

 

Don't see how the fact that the shooter keeps his hand on the second pistol is relevant. You don't say whether he has let the hammer down or not. Decocking would be a SDQ and holstering a pistol with a live round under the hammer would be a SDQ. Ref. ROI, p. 28. I am assuming shooter was not shooting GF. Am I missing something?

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SHB Page 22

 

"A shooter shall not cock any revolver until the firearm is pointed safely down range."

 

In this case the revolver wasn't cocked until safely down range, but it was then moved to a non-down range position while cocked. This would seem to violate the intent, if not the letter of this rule.

 

Or ROI page 24

 

"Returning a revolver to leather with hammer not fully down on spent round or empty chamber." SDQ

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SDQ... breaking 170 rule with second pistol. While a shooter must be allowed to holster and reholster from a straight hang holster, in this case the shooter violated the intent of that rule by performing other tasks. Not to mention what others have said but...

 

There has got to be a serious penalty for having a holstered gun, hammer cocked on a live round AND SHOOTER'S HAND ON THE GUN! Cripes, I haven't heard a better reason for a MDQ in a while.

 

Fillmore

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SDQ at minimum, possibly MDQ for (lack of) safe gun handling?

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cassalong,, a pistol doesn't count as holstered until the shooter's hand leaves it.

 

what if he didn't break the 170?

 

other than making the TO change his shorts,,,,

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hoss, which one, and why? sdq or mdq?

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Fillmore, break the 170 with a loaded gun a SDQ?

 

but let's say 170 wasn't broken....

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cassalong,, a pistol doesn't count as holstered until the shooter's hand leaves it.

 

what if he didn't break the 170?

 

other than making the TO change his shorts,,,,

My call is SDQ. However, If a pistol doesn't count as holstered unless the shooter hand leaves it then...P shooting out of category two loaded pistols out at one time, and MSV cocked before it is 45 degrees downrange.

 

Where do you find the info on "a pistol doesn't count as holstered until the shooter's hand leaves it." I know in our RO1 class we were told that a revolver is not considered out of the holster until it totally clears leather. (I know different than reholstering) We were on the subject of breaking the 170 and the crossdraw at the time.

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the

 

My call is SDQ. However, If a pistol doesn't count as holstered unless the shooter hand leaves it then...P shooting out of category two loaded pistols out at one time, and MSV cocked before it is 45 degrees downrange.

 

Where do you find the info on "a pistol doesn't count as holstered until the shooter's hand leaves it." I know in our RO1 class we were told that a revolver is not considered out of the holster until it totally clears leather. (I know different than reholstering) We were on the subject of breaking the 170 and the crossdraw at the time.

On the second part, that is the defining moment that you draw a penalty for holstering a cocked pistol, ie, when your hand leaves the pistol....

 

 

why a P? if he put the second one away before he redrew the first, you can have one hand on a pistol in holster while shooting the other...

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Wouldn't the act of holstering a cocked weapon mean that they broke the 170? Maybe I misunderstood the rule

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cassalong,, a pistol doesn't count as holstered until the shooter's hand leaves it.

 

what if he didn't break the 170?

 

other than making the TO change his shorts,,,,

Hello PB,

 

This didn't sound correct to me. So, I found the following on the TG Wire. Where holding on to a cocked gun while in holster was discussed.

 

"STAGE DISQUALIFICATION

... Returning a revolver to leather with hammer not fully down on spent round or empty chamber." It doesn't mention in hand, just returned to leather.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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if the holster has a forward cant it could be holstered without breaking the 170

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Hello PB,

 

This didn't sound correct to me. So, I found the following on the TG Wire. Where holding on to a cocked gun while in holster was discussed.

 

"STAGE DISQUALIFICATION

... Returning a revolver to leather with hammer not fully down on spent round or empty chamber." It doesn't mention in hand, just returned to leather.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

Every conversation I had on the ROC always was concluded with, "no penalty until it left the shooters hand". fwiw

 

pbcc

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You can't have it both ways. If it's considered still in his hand even in the holster then he is holding two loaded revolvers. If it is holstered it isn't hammer down on an empty chamber or dead round. Right or wrong I'd award both penalties as it not an acceptable gun handling methodology, ie. even if it doesn't break a specific rule it isn't a smart thing to do. Where was his trigger finger? Which revolver is the RO supposed to watch, the one being fired or the one being held in the holster? I would also question why the RO allowed shooter to continue?

 

While I'd stop short of the MDQ (P and a SDQ) I do agree with Lone Dog "Unacceptably unsafe gun handling. Needs to go mull thing over ..."

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the

 

On the second part, that is the defining moment that you draw a penalty for holstering a cocked pistol, ie, when your hand leaves the pistol....

 

 

why a P? if he put the second one away before he redrew the first, you can have one hand on a pistol in holster while shooting the other...

Why the P. Because you are saying he never holstered the first pistol.

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This didn't sound correct to me. So, I found the following on the TG

Wire. Where holding on to a cocked gun while in holster was discussed.

"STAGE DISQUALIFICATION

... Returning a revolver to leather with hammer not fully down on spent round or empty chamber." It doesn't mention in hand, just returned to leather.

Every conversation I had on the ROC always was concluded with, "no penalty until it left the shooters hand". fwiw

 

pbcc

 

There's the problem. The rules being applied are inconsistent. What is fairly clear in the rule book (award an SDQ) and pretty common sense (you can't have the 170 limit suspension if the shooter is not in the process of holstering the gun), when in the background there is an unpublished agreement of the ROC that if the hand is still on the gun, it is "not holstered". Sounds like that ROC agreement is what is faulty. IMHO.

 

If we want rules to be applied consistently and easily, then the rules all need to be published. Hidden agreements between ROC members, until accepted into the rule book, mean little to almost all matches, because THOSE PARDS aren't there to make the call!

 

Good luck, GJ

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Me again...

 

PB, that is just not clear from reading the rule I quoted in post 13.

 

I was in a hurry to serve dinner. I read more and PWB wrote the following.

"If the shooter HAD let go of the revolver, there would be no question regarding what the appropriate penalty would have been...

either one of those would have applied, as well as the "cocked revolver leaving the shooter's hand".

 

Question is whether the shooter was actually "holstering" (before he realized?? that the revolver was still COCKED with a LIVE ROUND under the hammer)

...and at what point was the allowance for breaking the 170º (ONLY to the 180º...NOT DOWNrange at ANY point) into a "straight hang holster" in effect??

 

I'd likely stick with the "unsafe firearm handling" with the other refs as backup on this one"

 

Just award the SDQ.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

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He should have fired the second pistol empty, redrew the first and fired it with no penalty.

 

As the action was stated, I'm stopping him, getting the second pistol emptied down range and sending him to the unloading table.

 

I'd probably call a SDQ but recommenbd he go to the match director if he had a problem with my call.

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were both pistols cocked at the same time???????

 

hand on it or not

in the holster or not

 

was a cocked pistol pointing at the fellers foot?

 

just wonder-in

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hoss, which one, and why? sdq or mdq?

SDQ for

1) breaking 170 (most likely did)

2) returning gun to leather not on MT chamber or spent round

3) cocked revolver leaving shooters hand. (it's either in leather or in his hand, I don't think can be both, but that's my opinion)

4) unsafe gun handling

 

MDQ only if he swept somebody with the loaded gun.

 

I guess if you think he could holster and hold it at the same time, and was not unsafe, and did not break the 170 then it would be a P For shooting out of category (having two pistols out at one time not a GFr)

 

I learned something today. I was thinking unsafe gun handling was a MDQ. I'm looking forward to taking RO classes one of these days. But these type of questions help by making me do the research instead of "thinking" I know the call! I do agree with Fillmore, this would seem to beg for a serious penalty. Seems as serious as dropping a loaded gun.

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Why the P. Because you are saying he never holstered the first pistol.

read post one again, he holstered first pistol, then drew second Pistol.....

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read post one again, he holstered first pistol, then drew second Pistol.....

One thing for sure, when he drawed the second, cocked revolver, back out of holster it was cocked before 45.

 

My vote at this point is SDQ.

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One thing for sure, when he drawed the second, cocked revolver, back out of holster it was cocked before 45.

 

My vote at this point is SDQ.

 

+1

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One thing for sure, when he drawed the second, cocked revolver, back out of holster it was cocked before 45.

 

My vote at this point is SDQ.

hmmmm, never thot of that one, cept he first cocked it legal, so could it be argued he since it was already cocked legally then it wouldn't be illegal...

 

after all we don't penalize someone who holsters a cocked empty pistol but redraws it without hand ever leaving it and then drops the hammer without penalty?

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read post one again, he holstered first pistol, then drew second Pistol.....

You said he never holstered the pistol because he didn't take his hand off...it is either holstered or it is not. If it is holstered it's SDQ for cocked, if it is not P for 2 loaded revolvers out at a time.

 

I still call it a SDQ

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As soon as the crown of the muzzle crosses the top line of holster leather the pistol is considered holstered. It is also still considered holstered until the last fraction of barrel clears the top line of holster leather. Thus has it ever been. How have so many forgotten this. But that is ancillary to the chief concern.

 

You pards are too lenient. The rule clearly states that ANY unsafe gun handling is a MDQ. If this does not constitute unsafe gun handling then I don't know what does.

 

Because. Clearly. Quite clearly. It DOES.

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Sooooooo many rules.........a lot of them only in folks head or unavailable to the everyday cowboy out there going bang on the weekends. If only they were written somewhere.

 

Oh Crap........Sorry, I'm going back to lurking

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cassalong,, a pistol doesn't count as holstered until the shooter's hand leaves it.

 

what if he didn't break the 170?

 

other than making the TO change his shorts,,,,

If that's true, the shooter has two loaded and cocked pistols in hand at the same time. Is he shooting GF or BW?

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Common Sense has to play into this one somewhere and quick. I would argue for a Match Disqualification and right now. That is about as unsafe gun handling as it gonna get without actually casuing harm. I would settle for a Stage Disqualification, but, I would be settling not agreeing with the call. A cocked, loaded gun, with the loaded chamber in line with the hammer, the shooter's hand still on the gun, and the shooter shooting his other pistol - all at the same time; if that is not unsafe gun handling, please tell, what is?

 

KCD

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Hmmmmm.........two cocked guns at the same time. Sounds like one of them dang unsafe GF's.

 

Just Lurking

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Common Sense has to play into this one somewhere and quick. I would argue for a Match Disqualification and right now. That is about as unsafe gun handling as it gonna get without actually casuing harm. I would settle for a Stage Disqualification, but, I would be settling not agreeing with the call. A cocked, loaded gun, with the loaded chamber in line with the hammer, the shooter's hand still on the gun, and the shooter shooting his other pistol - all at the same time; if that is not unsafe gun handling, please tell, what is?

 

KCD

KCD

Agree with you all the way. I'd give a MDQ and let him protest to the Match Director.

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Let's say in PBs question the shooter is a GF.

 

shooter shoots 4 out of each pistol and cocks both pistols then holsters, without taking his hands off his pistols and not breaking the 170, TO hollers two more, shooter pulls both pistols back out and fires them dry,,,,

 

What's the call, and why?

 

Just Lurking

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Common Sense has to play into this one somewhere and quick. I would argue for a Match Disqualification and right now. That is about as unsafe gun handling as it gonna get without actually casuing harm. I would settle for a Stage Disqualification, but, I would be settling not agreeing with the call. A cocked, loaded gun, with the loaded chamber in line with the hammer, the shooter's hand still on the gun, and the shooter shooting his other pistol - all at the same time; if that is not unsafe gun handling, please tell, what is?

 

KCD

 

Unfortunately, common sense isn't considered when referring to the rules, only the written word. In order for a penalty to be applied you have to be able to point to it in one of the "rule" books. Unsafe gun handling IS in the book, but IS ALSO very objective. In this case, however, I think you could make a case for it.

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