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Cheyenne Culpepper 32827

another hypo What's the call?

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CP,

 

Something like this happened a few years ago, to a duelist. He cocked the hammer on the pistol, realized he was supposed to shoot the other pistol, holstered the cocked gun DID NOT REMOVE his hand, redrew the pistol shot it (got a P for shooting the incorrect gun). This was a stage where you rolled a coin if it came up L you were to shoot the left gun first then the right or if it came up R you were to shoot the right gun and then the left.

We the berm marshalls (and there were 4 of us on the stage) would not have made any call about the cocked loaded pistol because he did not let go of it.

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Common Sense has to play into this one somewhere and quick. I would argue for a Match Disqualification and right now. That is about as unsafe gun handling as it gonna get without actually casuing harm. I would settle for a Stage Disqualification, but, I would be settling not agreeing with the call. A cocked, loaded gun, with the loaded chamber in line with the hammer, the shooter's hand still on the gun, and the shooter shooting his other pistol - all at the same time; if that is not unsafe gun handling, please tell, what is?

 

KCD

KCD, I thought the same thing, MDQ, but re-read the rule book, unsafe gun handling is only a SDQ. This surprised me. Unless the loaded gun swept somebody, its a SDQ. It seems to me that a cocked revolver in the holster, with live round under the hammer would be a bigger safety issue than a dropped loaded gun.

 

I guess it could open up the arguement (again) that the shooter swept himself with a loaded gun, because that revolver, with a live round under hammer, is most likely pointed at his toe????? I've heard folks vehmently ague both sides of that arguement....can a shooter sweep himself?

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Was thinking the same thing, Hoss. Can a shooter sweep himself? Yes, most of us do it every time we draw or return our revolvers to the holster. SHOULD a shooter sweep himself with a loaded, cocked revolver? I don't think so. I believe there is a difference, and there should be two different calls. No Call vs MDQ. But that's just my opinion.

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I guess it could open up the arguement (again) that the shooter swept himself with a loaded gun, because that revolver, with a live round under hammer, is most likely pointed at his toe????? I've heard folks vehmently ague both sides of that arguement....can a shooter sweep himself?

 

 

From the several times we have had this dicussion, I have taken away this conclusion:

 

Shooter does not "sweep himself" if the gun is not loaded and cocked. Picking up a vertically-staged uncocked gun - we allow for the shooter to be in front of or very near the muzzle while retrieving the gun or returning an empty gun to the staging rack. We allow shooter to draw revolver from holster - as long as he does not cock until barrel is at 45 degree angle, he is not able to sweep himself (because it it not cocked).

 

But:

I believe the shooter should be penalized if he gets any part of his body in front of a loaded and cocked gun. That situation (cocking revolver too early, cocking gun in holster, staging a loaded and cocked gun vertically, returning a loaded and cocked gun to staging area and being in front of it (like going down range)) all put the shooter and RO at big risk of injury and death.

 

The rules are "pieced together" like a patchwork quilt in this area and address some (but not all) of the individual mistakes that shooters may make. A general systematic rule would better cover all of this, like: "shooter may not sweep any part of his body with a loaded cocked gun, nor sweep anyone else - penalty MDQ". But, I believe that is the safety rule which we all have in the back of our head. IMHO, it is a hole in the quilt if our "piecemeal" rules never come out and say that a cocked revolver in the holster, even with hand on the revolver, is a safety violation.

 

Good luck, GJ

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I break it down like this:

 

  • shooter shoots 4 out of pistol and holsters, 1. if 1st pistol is still cocked-its over a loaded round-MDQ; 2. if 1st pistol isn't cocked, it is either on (a)loaded round or (b)fired round; for (a)MDQ and for (b)no call or P because 5th bullet didn't hit the right target in the firing sequence.
  • pulls second pistol and cocks it as TO hollers one more, shooter holsters second pistol without removing hand from second pistol, 1. 2nd pistol is holstered while cocked, hammer is over a loaded round-MDQ; shooter is allowed to holster with no call when hammer is down on empty chamber of fired round, and yes the shooter broke the 170 rule, the 45 degree rule, and isn't handling the gun properly.
  • pulls first pistol back out and fires it... no call if right target or P because 5th bullet didn't hit the right target in the firing sequence.
  • then pulls second pistol and fires it dry,,,, assuming in the correct order no call other than those above.

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My point is: It is "unsafe gun handling". If it is a rule to be only a stage DQ, than so be it. However, I think unsafe gun handling, when the guns are loaded, should be more severe than a SDQ. Gunfighters are intentionally with forethought shooting both guns "at the same time". This shooter was not thinking clearly, or he would have counted to 5 without mistake. If it is legal to place a pistol in a holster with the gun cocked, and a live round in line with the hammer, while not taking his hand of the grip, and drawing and shooting his other pistol when he couldn't count to 5 (take a breath here) than the rule is wrong. And, I am sorry, Common Sense counts in my book when hot lead hitting a soft target is a clear possiblity. I am not singling out "this shooter". I have done some pretty stupid stuff after the buzzer went off. And, I would take the most severe penalty without arguement if I did the same thing. We all know a single action revolver is a safe gun with the hammer down on an empty chamber going to the firing line. But cocking the hammer makes it a totally unsafe gun (except for firing the gun "safely"), and we have a rule for handling a cocked loaded gun. So, to end this rant, holstering a cocked and loaded firearm, with a 99.999999% chance there is a round in line with hammer, I would call it unsafe gun handling. I would, hopefully, been aware of what was going and would have stopped the shooter.

 

I gotta go back to work. My boss is eyeballing me!!! Safe and a lot of Shooting to Everyone.

 

KCD

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sounds like we are all in agreement that a loaded cocked revolver should not be in holster with or without hand on it, and the penalty for doign so should be severe. The way I read the RO I book, penalty would be a SDQ, unless, shooter swept somebody, then a MDQ. One of those situations that may not be as cut and dried as we would like, because the sweeping rule is somewhat subjective...lke breaking the 170.

 

Seems to me that unsafe gun handling should be grounds for a MDQ, if in TO/RO opinion the situation warrants it. Re-holstering a cocked loaded revolver with a round under hammer certainly seems more dangerous to me than a dropped loaded gun that does nothing more than hits the ground...does not have to break 170 or sweep anybody for it to be a MDQ.

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I might not be right on this, but I think that once the gun fully leaves the holster, it's considered "in hand". Until the hand leaves the gun, it's still "in hand" no matter where the gun is put, placed, leaned, etc... The hand has to lose contact with the gun for it to be considered anything else than "in hand". That's the rationale behind a MDQ for dropping a loaded gun. You had it "in hand" and lost it. Had it been in your holster, and your holster fell to the ground with the gun in it, it's not an MDQ because the gun isn't "in hand" (but it is embarassing, and you'll definitely hear some laughter as you pull the gunbelt up!).

 

P for having 2 guns in hand at once, unless he's shooting GF. (and a suggestion not to holster a cocked pistol again)

 

MDQ if he swept anyone or broke the 180 with the loaded gun in holster (e.g., if he holstered into a cross draw).

 

Had he fired out the second gun, holstered it, and then re-drew the first gun and shot out the last round, he might have (depending upon how the stage was written) gotten a no call.

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RO I handbook Page 16, Rule 8 = SDQ

 

Tin Pot

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We have settled the debate about sweeping one'sowndangself umpteen times here on the Wahr. Of course it happens, we all do it everytime we draw and everytime we re-holster from and back into a straight hang holster. So, of course. one CAN sweep one's own self howsomever it is ALWAYS a no call no matter what no matter when. Even if the revolver is cocked over a live round it is still a no call. Always. Penalties only apply if someone else other than the shooter is swept.

 

Thus has it ever been. So may it ever be.

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Upon occasion I've seen revolvers holstered with the hammer cocked and it is always unsafe.

Even saw a cowboy holster a cocked gun and he still had his hand on it when he shot himself in the leg.

That's why it's against the rules.

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Upon occasion I've seen revolvers holstered with the hammer cocked and it is always unsafe.

Even saw a cowboy holster a cocked gun and he still had his hand on it when he shot himself in the leg.

That's why it's against the rules.

Yep. +1

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I would give shooter a SDQ for unsafe gun handling. It does say in Shooters Handbook that no firearm be cocked unless safely pointed downrange. The cocked pistol, holstered and even thought has never left shooters hand, with hand still on butt. The barrel is no longer pointed downrange. SDQ, unsafe gunhandling. MT

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RO I handbook Page 16, Rule 8 = SDQ

 

Tin Pot

 

No one argues the gun wasn't safe. The argument is whether returning it to the holster with his hand still on it constitutes "holstering".

 

Rule 5 says you can't let a cocked revolver leave your hand. The shooter held the gun while in the holster. It's still "in hand".

 

Rule 8 says that a cocked revolver isn't safe.

 

Rule 11 is the rule that says that you can't put an unsafe gun into a holster. But, that rule is very specific that the gun must leave the shooter's hand.

 

Rule 21 says that guns held vertically downward at the shooter's side do not break the 170 degree line.

 

Rule 2 says you can't sweep other people, but you can sweep yourself (as you do every time you draw).

 

So, while we all may think that it's unsafe or unwise to put the cocked gun back into the holster while you're holding it, there's really no specific rule, other than having 2 guns in hand for non-GF's, that apply based upon the facts as known. I'd still suggest to the shooter that it's not a good idea to do what he did, ever.

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So the obvious questions is...what would be the call in the "Cone of Safety"?

 

:mellow:

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I break it down like this:

 

  • shooter shoots 4 out of pistol and holsters, 1. if 1st pistol is still cocked-its over a loaded round-MDQ; 2. if 1st pistol isn't cocked, it is either on (a)loaded round or (b)fired round; for (a)MDQ and for (b)no call or P because 5th bullet didn't hit the right target in the firing sequence.
  • pulls second pistol and cocks it as TO hollers one more, shooter holsters second pistol without removing hand from second pistol, 1. 2nd pistol is holstered while cocked, hammer is over a loaded round-MDQ; shooter is allowed to holster with no call when hammer is down on empty chamber of fired round, and yes the shooter broke the 170 rule, the 45 degree rule, and isn't handling the gun properly.
  • pulls first pistol back out and fires it... no call if right target or P because 5th bullet didn't hit the right target in the firing sequence.
  • then pulls second pistol and fires it dry,,,, assuming in the correct order no call other than those above.

The only problem I have with this logic is that the items you call a MDQ are called SDQ in the RO1 book.

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No one argues the gun wasn't safe. The argument is whether returning it to the holster with his hand still on it constitutes "holstering".

 

Rule 5 says you can't let a cocked revolver leave your hand. The shooter held the gun while in the holster. It's still "in hand".

 

Rule 8 says that a cocked revolver isn't safe.

 

Rule 11 is the rule that says that you can't put an unsafe gun into a holster. But, that rule is very specific that the gun must leave the shooter's hand.

 

Rule 21 says that guns held vertically downward at the shooter's side do not break the 170 degree line.

 

Rule 2 says you can't sweep other people, but you can sweep yourself (as you do every time you draw).

 

So, while we all may think that it's unsafe or unwise to put the cocked gun back into the holster while you're holding it, there's really no specific rule, other than having 2 guns in hand for non-GF's, that apply based upon the facts as known. I'd still suggest to the shooter that it's not a good idea to do what he did, ever.

Rule 11 appllies to the gun safe for leaving the shooter's hand. For holstering the gun is holstered whether or not the hand leaves the gun or not. Therefore he holstered a cocked revolver which is a SDQ.

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I still stick with my call in post #24 stating that when shooter draws/redraws cocked revolver he is breaking the 45 rule. Although IMO there is something wrong with shooter holstering revolver cocked with round under hammer, I will let that slide due to argument that hand has never released grip. There is the question of whether 170 was broken in the act of holstering, but seems that is a unknown, BODGTS, but not on the first mentioned 45 call.....SDQ.

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I still stick with my call in post #24 stating that when shooter draws/redraws cocked revolver he is breaking the 45 rule. Although IMO there is something wrong with shooter holstering revolver cocked with round under hammer, I will let that slide due to argument that hand has never released grip. There is the question of whether 170 was broken in the act of holstering, but seems that is a unknown, BODGTS, but not on the first mentioned 45 call.....SDQ.

I agree on the SDQ but the 45 violation is only a MSV.

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I agree on the SDQ but the 45 violation is only a MSV.

D, By jingos believe you are right.......dern, shooter is getting off light with MSV but that is possibly all we can solidly give. Even if I think more is deserved in the situation, I am a big believer in BOD so 45 violation is all I can comfortably go with.

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hmmmm, never thot of that one, cept he first cocked it legal, so could it be argued he since it was already cocked legally then it wouldn't be illegal...

 

after all we don't penalize someone who holsters a cocked empty pistol but redraws it without hand ever leaving it and then drops the hammer without penalty?

Not sure where you get this, CC. Decocking (except in circumstances not present here) results in a SDQ. ROI Handbook, p. 16, Rule 7. Furthermore this gun was not empty, so that hammer was cocked over a live round. And while the rest of us are citing express authority from the SASS Handbooks, I don' see that you have offered any actual authority for the contention that the gun was not holstered because the shooter kept his hand on it. Unless you have some real authority, and that would be known to TOs in the field every weekend, I will stick with a SDQ, at least.

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it may be a grey area, but if a shooter holsters a cocked unloaded gun, the penalty is incurred when his hand is removed, other wise the shooter may redraw an empty cocked revolver and make it safe without penalty if he does it correctly. Real authority....? gmb.

 

maybe there is more here that needs attention than just the loaded gun, you would penalize someone doing it with an empty gun? others wouldn't, including PWB so that is what I am trying to expose, perhaps being around for over 12 yrs I've seen more and might have more insight... just saying...

 

this is for thought, and if you were to call it, how would you back it up.

 

so far, we have no call, msv, sdq and a mdq.

 

pbcc

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A source of our problem here is that we are looking for exact verbiage when that is not always possible. OR we could go for the IRS code, to cover everything - which it doesn't and it contracts....

 

But:

There is no doubt about the MSV:

R.O. I, page 17:

"When drawing a revolver from its holster, the revolver shall not be cocked until it is at a 45° angle down range. (Minor Safety Violation)"

 

And there is actually not doubt about the SDQ:

Page 18 of same book:

"Any unsafe gun handling in the course of a draw from the holster or any “fanning” will result in a Stage Disqualification."

 

We also know:

 

 

Yes, it does take a tiny TINY bit of interpretation but really!!!

 

I know many really want to quote an exact rule, but it is truly NOT possible in ALL cases and it is illogical to want it to be so ...

 

Putting a cocked gun into the holster is definitely spelled out as unsafe gun handling. Trying to justify it by having your hand on it at all times, does not make it any safer at all.

 

Yes, it has not "officially" left your hand as the rules state about a cocked gun leaving the hand, but it is still unsafe. It is similar to the situation where Palewolf has spelled out the options for cocking the gun at the wrong time. Sorry I don't have that link handy.

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hmmmm, never thot of that one, cept he first cocked it legal, so could it be argued he since it was already cocked legally then it wouldn't be illegal...

U got to be kidding

 

but officer, I was driving the legal speed limit before I exceeded it, why do I git a ticket

 

just sayin?

 

apples and concrete, sure

but you got to be kidding

 

point A cocked loaded pistol at your lower leg or foot or etc.

maybe miss the holster, and take a couple of stabs at it

let alone the 45 dgree cocking rule

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it may be a grey area, but if a shooter holsters a cocked unloaded gun, the penalty is incurred when his hand is removed, other wise the shooter may redraw an empty cocked revolver and make it safe without penalty if he does it correctly. Real authority....? gmb.

 

maybe there is more here that needs attention than just the loaded gun, you would penalize someone doing it with an empty gun? others wouldn't, including PWB so that is what I am trying to expose, perhaps being around for over 12 yrs I've seen more and might have more insight... just saying...

 

this is for thought, and if you were to call it, how would you back it up.

 

so far, we have no call, msv, sdq and a mdq.

 

pbcc

I think the problem Cass, and I, have with the rule you quoted is that it's not in any of the books. I did a search on the term holster and a separate one on the term leather in all three books and there's no mention that a gun isn't considered holstered until the shooter takes his hand off it.

 

I'm sure you're correct that it's been discussed on the ROC forum but that does us non-ROC pards no good. We can't see those discussions, no ROIs and ROIIs have been trained in or exposed to this 'rule'. I don't think it's a good idea to have unwritten rules that only a few people know about. I have a feeling it might cause a little unhappiness on the line if TOs start making calls and quoting 'secret' rules they can't show anyone in the rule books.

 

I stand by my original call, SDQ for returning a cocked revolver to leather.

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I would give shooter a SDQ for unsafe gun handling. It does say in Shooters Handbook that no firearm be cocked unless safely pointed downrange. The cocked pistol, holstered and even thought has never left shooters hand, with hand still on butt. The barrel is no longer pointed downrange. SDQ, unsafe gunhandling. MT

Ta Daaa!! :)

 

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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Shooter put a cocked, loaded gun with hammer cocked over a live round in his holster, HAND ON IT OR NOT, I'm stopping the stage and awarding a SDQ if I have the timer. EVERYTIME>..... take your $50 to the MD and TG committee.

 

You can get shot and argue the rules all you want from a hospital bed. I think I'll go to lunch with the posse.

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Shooter put a cocked, loaded gun with hammer cocked over a live round in his holster, HAND ON IT OR NOT, I'm stopping the stage and awarding a SDQ if I have the timer. EVERYTIME>..... take your $50 to the MD and TG committee.

 

You can get shot and argue the rules all you want from a hospital bed. I think I'll go to lunch with the posse.

 

 

+1

It's cocked. It has a live round under that cocked hammer. And it's holstered.

 

To heck with the still got a hand on it. If they want it to mean it is not holstered until the hand is off. Write it in.

Other wise. As far as I am concerned. That dang thing is holstered.

And it is UNSAFE.

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+1

It's cocked. It has a live round under that cocked hammer. And it's holstered.

Isn't a 1911 carried the same way? So they are unsafe?

 

Just wondering?

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Isn't a 1911 carried the same way? So they are unsafe?

 

Just wondering?

how about the grip pressure safety????

horse of a different color

geeese

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Isn't a 1911 carried the same way? So they are unsafe?

 

Just wondering?

Not in Wild Bunch they're not. Slide is operated on the clock. And, yes, I've carried a 1911 for nearly 35 years cocked and locked condition 1... it's dangerous as hell that way... and it's supposed to be.

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Isn't a 1911 carried the same way? So they are unsafe?

 

Just wondering?

 

Apples and oranges. Not the same thing.

 

Safety would be on with the 1911. Or at least I would hope it would be.

 

This is cocked. Live round under the hammer. No safety. And I would bet dollars to donuts.

His finger was in the trigger guard.

 

NOT the same thing.

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Isn't a 1911 carried the same way? So they are unsafe?

 

Just wondering?

1.) Don't matter none of us carry a 1911 while competing in CAS.

2.) Never seen anyone carry a 1911 cocked locked safety off and hand on the pistol.

3.) No it isn't unsafe to carry it cocked, locked and thumb safety on, grip safety working properly. GMB designed it that way.

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