Eusta B.Fast Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 This has probably been hashed out a thousand times here on the wire. But unfortunately I missed it. So here goes. I'm gonna let my stupidity all hang out. I just don't understand how someone who shoots a match in less total time can lose to someone with more total time. The hand book refers to it as "rewarding the more consistant shooter" To me, the most consistant shooter is someone who kicks my a#@ for total score; and I bow to whomever that might be. Help me out here. Cuz I"m sure it's plain to see that I need it. Eusta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Texas Jack Black Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Each stage is a separate game,each with its own degree of difficulty,BUT the ones who want a COWBOY IN IPSC game will surely chime in and start the bashing .Hang on to your hat ,The fun should begin real soon. :lol: I wonder how long it will take for the invisible one to appear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACKFOOT SASS #11947 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Compare it to a fishing contest. Who wins, the one who caught the most fish or the one with the most total weight? Blackfoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 ...I wonder how long it will take for the invisible one to appear. Hi Jack, Who is that and where did that moniker come from? Inquiring minds... Regards, Allie Mo PS Eusta, Badlands Bud wrote a great critique of how rank Rank scoring really is compared to TT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Hand Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 If rank scoring is the where all and be all, why do they use TT to break a tie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Coles SASS 1188 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Rank scoring limits the impact of a single bad stage on the top shooters. It keeps medium rank shooters from winning matches because the top shooters have a bad day. Basically, it gives the win to who "should have won" rather than the person who actually did. There are many ways to justify using it (see the fishing example above) but there are just as many arguments against it. For example, in auto racing the rank scoring win would go to the guy who led the most laps , not the guy who crossed the line first; in baseball or football the rank scoring win would go to the team that scored in the most innings or quarters, not who had the highest score. etc. In my opinion, rank scoring is undemocratic and a bad thing for SASS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eusta B.Fast Posted July 15, 2012 Author Share Posted July 15, 2012 Hi Jack, Who is that and where did that moniker come from? Inquiring minds... Regards, Allie Mo PS Eusta, Badlands Bud wrote a great critique of how rank Rank scoring really is compared to TT. Allie, where do I find Buds critique? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Allie, where do I find Buds critique? Send him a PM. Maybe he will copy and paste here. I have it; but, don't feel comfortable sharing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Complicated Lady Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Oh Allie, I think we can guess the identity of "the invisible one" with a strong opinion on Rank verses Total Time. Oy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Hi Complicated, Okay, I just got it. Phantom = Invisible. I'm a little slow. Regards, Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Tastes Great Ford Mary Ann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olen Rugged Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Tastes Great Ford Mary Ann Thin Crust Made in Mary Ann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Fernando Slim, SASS #20521 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Rank scoring was explained to me as each stage is a separate gun fight. Well if you were killed in the first gunfight ... well, you're dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 This has probably been hashed out a thousand times here on the wire. Nah. A LOT more times than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex M Rugers #6621 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Eusta B. , Pard , you need to go sit in the corner with your nose touching the wall till this thread dies. . Just joshing ya , pard. But it is a subject that gets folks riled and before long they get testy and start calling each other bad names , or worse. Rex , who shoots either method with equal mediocrity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOCBRAZOS, SASS#18033L Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Not to debate the pros and cons, because rank is what it is. But a five second miss in TT is five seconds but a 5 second miss on a stand and deliver stage usually penalize’s with more rank points than a complicated stage with several transitions. So a Miss's in Rank point matches vary according to the stage. Also depends on the number of shooters at the match and the fact that top shooter loose less rank points peer miss than middle of the pack to slow shooters. Look at EoT scores and see the amt of rank points loss by the top 10-15 shooters then look at the rank points loss per miss down around shooter 100 or so. ( on the same stages ) Top shooters that can shoot a stage in 15 seconds can still beat a lot of shooters that will shoot the same stage in 20.01+ so therefore loose less by the miss. But, Because they are top shooters w/RP they are not penalized as many points so they still do better. Rarely does it affect Class Winner, but it can! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Scatterbrain Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 There is no perfect scoring system. Much like real ife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Food fight!! :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake River Clay SASS #34984 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 I have never seen a GOOD reason for rank scoring. Rank Scoring is like a baseball game where team A scores 11 runs in the first inning and loses to team B that scores 1 run in each of the next 8 innings. Rank Score B wins 8-1. Should be: A-11 B-8. In golf it is like the difference between Match Play And Stroke Play. Match Play is how one player does against another. Stroke Play is how a player did against the course. (I don't enjoy Match Play either) With different shooting categories it is foolish to rank ALL shooters against each other. Total time scores each shooter by how they did on the courses of fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crooked jake,4371 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Its kinda like apples and oranges........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eusta B.Fast Posted July 15, 2012 Author Share Posted July 15, 2012 I have never seen a GOOD reason for rank scoring. Rank Scoring is like a baseball game where team A scores 11 runs in the first inning and loses to team B that scores 1 run in each of the next 8 innings. Rank Score B wins 8-1. Should be: A-11 B-8. In golf it is like the difference between Match Play And Stroke Play. Match Play is how one player does against another. Stroke Play is how a player did against the course. (I don't enjoy Match Play either) With different shooting categories it is foolish to rank ALL shooters against each other. Total time scores each shooter by how they did on the courses of fire. This is my exact point I just read the scores from a match a good pard of mine was in. There were only two shooters in his catagory. His total time was 5+ seconds faster than his competitor, but he came in second, due to rank scoring. If we are going to be scored according to how well we did against the very best shooter in the match, what is the sence of competing in a "catagory"? THAT is the part I just can't get into my head. I was a math major in school, and to me rank scoring seems to be "rigged" mathmatics. Do we shoot as a catagory? Or do we shoot against the top shooters? just kinda reminds me of politics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Eusta - that has long been my biggest contention with rank scoring. If I understand it right, EOT uses match rank scoring for overall placement, and Category rank scoring for placement within the category. That makes sense to me if rank scoring is to be used at all. My reference on that is an article Tex wrote a month or two back in the CC, don't remember which one. But, to allow every shooter in the match to effect the placement of those within a given category just makes no sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Well Eusta, off we go! Remember, you started it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Actually, this is a senseless post/topic. Nothing is going to change...so why even discuss it. Most reasonable people will shoot a match regardless of the scoring method used...though the arguement that neither is "Perfect" is silly too as at least the best of the worst should be employed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Dan Troop 70448 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 I've losed many matches to Rank scoring, and then some to total time. Is there a 3rd method? MT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Complicated Lady Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Well Eusta, off we go! Remember, you started it. Allie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 I've losed many matches to Rank scoring, and then some to total time. Is there a 3rd method? MT Of course yer kiddin...I know. But, this obviously shouldn't be about which scoring method would benefit "you" more, but rather which scoring method best reflects the relative performances of the competitors. Anyway, we all are just spittin' in the wind talkin about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Spittin in the wind can be fun sometimes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Unless you are standing nearby and are not the spitter. I know this from first hand experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Dan Troop 70448 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Of course yer kiddin...I know. But, this obviously shouldn't be about which scoring method would benefit "you" more, but rather which scoring method best reflects the relative performances of the competitors. Anyway, we all are just spittin' in the wind talkin about this. Of course it was meant as such! :) I just never got a chance to post on one of many of these topics, mostly ignoring them. Just bored, to hot to do anything. MT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Persuader, SASS # 74492 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 I don't know if it's true or not, I heard a different scoring system is being looked at for use in SASS. I was told it was being tried with the Wild Bunch shooters at this past EOT? Maybe some of the Wild Bunch Shooters could chime in and say if this is true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Scatterbrain Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Most reasonable people will shoot a match regardless of the scoring method used...though the arguement that neither is "Perfect" is silly too as at least the best of the worst should be employed. I was just making an observation, not really offering an argument. If anything, I was trying to suggest the same idea you stated: use the best system which can be devised. It won't be perfect, and there will always be people who are dissatisfied with it. Such is life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCandless Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 I am a middle-to-bottom of the pack shooter, neither scoring method isn't going to change that. But, within category, Rank Scoring has cost me wins and given me wins. I've felt a little bad when I've won by Rank Scoring and had a slower time, and I've felt a little bad when I've had a faster time and lost by Rank Scoring. So, it is what it is. I prefer Total Time matches, but however the match committee wants to score it, is how it's going to be done. If it's going to be scored Total Time, they'll usually tell you in the match announcement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shapiro Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 The worst thing about rank points is that the penalty for a miss, a procedural, a minor safety, etc. is inconsistent, and is very dependent on your rank for the stage. Looking at the EOT overall scores from this year, on stage 1, say Badlands Bud got a 'minor safety'. That would give him 24.9 seconds. It would take him from rank 1 to rank 100 (approx). So that would add 99 rank points. On that same stage, say Wilkes (149 overall) had a minor safety. That would take him to 36.71 seconds. And move his rank position from 159 to approx 344. That's 185 rank points. So for the same 10 second penalty - and a safety penalty at that, Bud ends up with 99 extra rank points and Wilkes with 185 extra rank points. That is most certainly not a fair scoring system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Complicated Lady Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Only took him 22 posts to come slithering out from under his rock and start spewing his venom .Some as when he was a kid. :lol: Dude, this is not the place for personal attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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