I'm Confused

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

OK, I've confused myself (it's not all that hard). Shooter steps up to the line (not me), snatches up her rifle and proceeds to nail all the Pistol targets. Continues to shoot the pistol targets with her pistols and cleans the shotgun.

OOPS!! We have a "P" for shooting the incorrect targets with the rifle. But, she hit 'em all. Do we also assess a miss for each incorrect target hit?? Or, is it just a P.

I hate Mondays

 

Coffinmaker

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Miss for each incorrect target type, no P.

 

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

Miss for each incorrect target type, no P.

 

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

I agree with Jefro no "P", miss for each rifle shot that hit a pistol target.

 

5-SECOND PENALTIES

• Rifle, revolver, and shotgun targets must be engaged with the appropriate type of firearm. A “miss” is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type firearm. Target placement should always allow a shooter the opportunity for a clean miss to be scored without argument. Overlapping targets of the same type should be avoided if at all possible and should not cause a Procedural “trap” by making it difficult to determine the shooter’s intent when engaging the targets.

• Each missed target.

• Each unfired round.

• Each target hit with an incorrect firearm, either intentionally or by mistake.

• Each target hit with “illegally acquired” ammunition.

 

Randy

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Howdy Colorado Coffinmaker.

 

a miss for each rifle round which did not hit a rifle target AND.......no 'P'.

 

 

..........Widder

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

Yep... 10 misses....

About a year ago it took Palewolf about 2 pages to get it thru my thick head

 

Rance

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

OK. I'm there. Just seems ......... wrong ....... to score hits as misses. I can however see why based on the part of the rules I glossed over.

So, don't shoot the pistol targets with a rifle, and visey versey.

 

Coffinmaker

[Griff]

Did the Shooter hit all the correct type of targets with legally acquired ammo? Ans.: NO. Assess misses.

 

Were the targets hit in the correct order except for any misses? Ans.: Yes, No Further Call.

 

However, if the pistol targets were hit in an incorrect order for the RIFLE sequence, that answer would be a Yes, and you'd go on;

 

Did target placement give the shooter the opportunity for a clean miss to be scored without argument? Ans. Insufficient info. Assume, Yes. Assess Procedural.

 

Did the shooter gain a competitive advantage by shooting the targets in an incorrect order? Ans.: Yes, (again, assuming pistol targets are closer than the rifle targets, it is of some advantage).

 

Did the advantage gained appear intentional? Ans.: Yes, Assess Spirit of the Game penalty; No, No Further Call.

 

Does the shooter begin to argue and behave in an unsportsmanlike manner? Ans.: Yes, Assess MDQ; No, No Further Call.

 

So, given the information in the OP, what's confusing? 10 misses.

 

(Edited): I'll answer my own question. We often (& I'll include myself in there also), we often jump to the fact that the targets were hit out of order before we do the hit/miss thing... thereby planting the "P" firmly in our mind before we answer that first, all important question.

 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Yup

[Buckshot Frank]

Well I would have definitely got that one wrong if this was a quiz. I would have thought that shooting the targets out of order (pistol targets instead of rifle targets) would be a P with no misses.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

If CC don't mind, I'd like to add on another question please:

 

what if the pistols were to be fired and THEN the rifle, but the shooter picked up rifle first, shot all the pistol targets and THEN fired the pistols at the correct targets.

 

Whouldn't this earn the shooter a 'P' AND the 10 misses? Because the firearms were shot out of order.

 

 

..........Widder

[Blastmaster]

If CC don't mind, I'd like to add on another question please:

 

what if the pistols were to be fired and THEN the rifle, but the shooter picked up rifle first, shot all the pistol targets and THEN fired the pistols at the correct targets.

 

Whouldn't this earn the shooter a 'P' AND the 10 misses? Because the firearms were shot out of order.

 

 

..........Widder

 

 

I believe the shooter would get a P and 10misses for what you discribed (rile shot first, out of order and engaged pistol targets rather than rifle targets)... if he had engaged the rifle targets first and hit them all, then went to pistols, then it would only be a P.

 

I agree with your last line. You figured it out.

 

Blastmaster

[Noz]

You should ask Allie Mo what the penalty is for such a mistake.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

You should ask Allie Mo what the penalty is for such a mistake.

Yup! We could call it the Allie Mo Sweep and it earns the shooter 10 misses. Ouch!

 

Please reread the rule posted by Randy Saint Eagle.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

PS From page 25 of the ROI: "A MISS CANNOT CAUSE A PROCEDURAL."

[Seldom Seen #16162]

OK, I've confused myself (it's not all that hard). Shooter steps up to the line (not me), snatches up her rifle and proceeds to nail all the Pistol targets. Continues to shoot the pistol targets with her pistols and cleans the shotgun.

OOPS!! We have a "P" for shooting the incorrect targets with the rifle. But, she hit 'em all. Do we also assess a miss for each incorrect target hit?? Or, is it just a P.

I hate Mondays

 

Coffinmaker

This is a trick question.

 

The correct answer in NO CALL>

 

Please reread the second sentence. The shooter is a female. As all married men know their wives are never wrong.

[K.A.Mule,#50776]

Whooper Crane is the expert on this situation and he should chime in to explain the ramifications of this scenario. Re Bordertown 2010. His buddy KA Mule will refrain from casting dispersion's on Pal from Red Rock.

[Shell Belle]

At EOT this past year my husband did this.. Shot the pistol targets with his rifle.. The posse Marshall assessed him the misses and the procedural.....

[Blastmaster]

PS From page 25 of the ROI: "A MISS CANNOT CAUSE A PROCEDURAL."

 

He got the P before the misses cause he started with wrong gun right from the get go. He earned the P as soon as he cocked the hammer on the gun. He was then committed to shoot the rifle. Then he hit the wrong targets to boot with the rifle.

 

At least that is how I see it.

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

Shell Belle, BAD CALL !! At EOT it is easily fixed. The shooter can ask the PM to call one of the Range Masters on the radio (All us PM's have a radio to do just that) and it will be corrected in minutes. There is no reason to accept a bad call (especially at EOT). The call can even be fixed AFTER the score sheets are turned in at EOT. It is done nearly every year. Mistakes are made on the line, but can be corrected.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

He got the P before the misses cause he started with wrong gun right from the get go. He earned the P as soon as he cocked the hammer on the gun. He was then committed to shoot the rifle. Then he hit the wrong targets to boot with the rifle.

 

At least that is how I see it.

The OP did not state that.

[Shell Belle]

Yeah, hind sight is 20-20.... I was not there, but if I had, the ruling wouldn't have stood.. I guess we live and learn.

[Blastmaster]

The OP did not state that.

 

Reread OP. You are correct. Will retract my statement.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

OK, I've confused myself (it's not all that hard). Shooter steps up to the line (not me), snatches up her rifle and proceeds to nail all the Pistol targets. Continues to shoot the pistol targets with her pistols and cleans the shotgun.

OOPS!! We have a "P" for shooting the incorrect targets with the rifle. But, she hit 'em all. Do we also assess a miss for each incorrect target hit?? Or, is it just a P.

I hate Mondays

 

Coffinmaker

 

This is BASIC scoring procedure covered in the RO Courses (Instructor??)

REF the "Penalty Overview" (5-second penalties); "Miss Flow Chart"; and "Pocket RO Card" in the RO1 (pages 23-28)

[Dutch Coroner]

Ha! Two years or more and you have finally come to see it the "right" way.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

Personally, I believe that this situation should be a P.

It is the essential definition of the concept of a Brain-Fade as described on page 25 of the RO1 book.

 

I know what the rules say today (5 seconds per target hit with wrong firearm).

I simply believe that rule shouldn't be there or it should have a single target limitation or restricted vs P for large number of targets.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Personally, I believe that this situation should be a P.

It is the essential definition of the concept of a Brain-Fade as described on page 25 of the RO1 book.

 

I know what the rules say today (5 seconds per target hit with wrong firearm).

I simply believe that rule shouldn't be there or it should have a single target limitation or restricted vs P for large number of targets.

 

The rule is simple...whether the shooter MISSES one or ten targets of the type meant for the firearm being used.

APPLY AS NEEDED.

 

Reminds me of the post some time ago where a shooter shot the pistol targets with his rifle...then, to make up the difference, shot the rifle targets with revolvers.

The call was TWENTY MISSES = 100 seconds in penalties...but NO "P".

[Max Montana, SASS #23907]

If CC don't mind, I'd like to add on another question please:

 

what if the pistols were to be fired and THEN the rifle, but the shooter picked up rifle first, shot all the pistol targets and THEN fired the pistols at the correct targets.

 

Whouldn't this earn the shooter a 'P' AND the 10 misses? Because the firearms were shot out of order.

 

 

..........Widder

 

Widder, in your example, you are correct.

 

The "P" is earned for shooting the wrong gun from the wrong location and not for having the miss or in this case misses.

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

Widder, in your example, you are correct.

 

The "P" is earned for shooting the wrong gun from the wrong location and not for having the miss or in this case misses.

 

 

Yep..

Widder threw in a different scenario on Post # 10.. and the answer is again correct..

 

Rance

I'm right ain't I??

[Max Montana, SASS #23907]

I've been disappointed by the "Miss Flow Chart" for this one reason since it was developed years and years ago. Especially, when at that time I shot at a state match that placed identical shape and color pistol targets in line and next to the rifle targets of the same identical shape and color. I've not seen that stage setup in a very long time though.

 

I still believe the "Flow Chart" is flawed to assign an accuracy penalty instead of a penalty for violation of the stage description which is the very basis of "procedural" penalties.

 

 

But, it is what it is. I'm glad it doesn't come up very often.

 

One would think that with the great minds that so permeate the Wild Bunch, RO Committee, and TGs someone would come up with a better solution to this situation than penalizing a shooter 50 seconds for being confused on the targets.

[Titus A. Gnatsass, SASS #71705]

Yup! We could call it the Allie Mo Sweep and it earns the shooter 10 misses. Ouch!

 

Please reread the rule posted by Randy Saint Eagle.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

And I STILL feel bad about that stage to this day! If memory serves me correctly, you were one of two or possibly three shooters to suffer that same fate on that stage. It was a tough one for the timer operators due to target placement/angle and shooting thru a window. You were a good sport about it though.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

The rule is simple...whether the shooter MISSES one or ten targets of the type meant for the firearm being used.

APPLY AS NEEDED.

 

Reminds me of the post some time ago where a shooter shot the pistol targets with his rifle...then, to make up the difference, shot the rifle targets with revolvers.

The call was TWENTY MISSES = 100 seconds in penalties...but NO "P".

 

As I said in my post. I know what the rule says. I just don't like the rule.

I think it is a flagrant example of one rule/statement ignoring/contravening completely another.

The definition of a Procedural is a Brain Fade from page 25 of RO1.

I can think of few other examples of such an obvious brain fade.

Shooting targets in a wrong order, wrong gun, are all perfect examples of what a brain fade is.

 

Yet according to this rule it is not brain fade it is a miss.

 

I can only guess why this rule was added. That is to prevent a single pistol shot hitting a rifle target from being a P.

It is unlikely that the voters on this rule really wanted to impose a 100 second penalty for a shooter who had a brain fade and mixed up pistol vs rifle targets and shot both wrong.

 

Also wrong about this rule is that a miss is classically a shot that does not hit what one aims at.

 

Just my opinions.

I do know what the rules are.

I don't have to like them. Do I?

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

....

 

One would think that with the great minds that so permeate the Wild Bunch, RO Committee, and TGs someone would come up with a better solution to this situation than penalizing a shooter 50 seconds for being confused on the targets.

 

 

Exactly my point as well !

This is really one of the reasons that I feel that the hit/miss/p flowchart/procedure is so messed up/useless.

It can produce results that are unseen and contradictory to common sense.

 

My 2 cents worth.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

And I STILL feel bad about that stage to this day! If memory serves me correctly, you were one of two or possibly three shooters to suffer that same fate on that stage. It was a tough one for the timer operators due to target placement/angle and shooting thru a window. You were a good sport about it though.

Hi TAG!

 

IIRC, I wasn't the only shooter to do that. I could name the other two "blondes;" but I won"t.

 

Thank you for calling me a good sport! Sometimes that is hard when you feel like an idiot!

 

ya and Fannie!

 

Allie Mo

[Cowboy Junky]

This is where you WISH you could get a P. Because you come out better.......but the rules are the rules.