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Agenda Item #2


PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L

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As others have said, as a TG I will vote my club's wishes. However, personally I really don't see the need to "protect the younger shooters from us old gamers". Yup, I see the occasional, rare older shooter who can whup the youngsters, but there sure ain't many, at least in my neck o'the woods. Take a look at any large match. Count the number of ES who shoot faster/better than the majority of Cowboys/Wranglers/49er's. Do you see more than one or two? Those who can still do that shoot & practice a whole lot. It's really a fact of nature that our reactions, eyesight, and all those other critical physical attributes get worse as we get older. I would gladly trade my physical situation with one of those young whippersnappers. Obviously, the closer we get in age differences (Cowboy vs. Wrangler, for instance) the less these differences become, and the less the advantage. Do we really need to protect the Cowboy from the ES and from the Wrangler? I think this takes it to such a distinction point that the values become irrelevant when compared to individual capabilities and willingness to train and practice. We cannot legislate total equality into the game, so, IMHO, let's leave it alone. If that old guy or gal can beat you regularly, then I suggest more time at the range. Or more time at the Margarita bar.... :lol: That's where I'll be, remembering when I could move that fast and shoot that straight... :D

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Personally, I vote a big fat NO! As TG, I will vote as my club decides. We'll see where it shakes out. Can I ask a question? What is the rationale for this? And why do we constantly fiddle fart around with categories? Can't we just leave it alone for awhile. I'd like to see an agenda item placing a moritorium on category alterations for at least five years.

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Cherry picking? I think not! There's a reason for age-based catagories. Older folks are usually, that's USUALLY but not a rule, against younger shooters. THat's why we have them. If an older shooter wants to shoot with the young pups, I say let'em. I see nothing wrong with the current rule on this subject.

 

NO

 

(And if yer a youngster and don't like getting beat by the 'oldsters', go practice a while!

 

 

I think you need to get out more. I have seen an older shooter from my region do this. He has quite a few years experience shooting and is a pretty great shooter but not good enough to compete in his age group. He "Cherry Picks" at state and regionals to compete against a group of younger and less experienced shooters. He does pretty well usually and kicks the younger and less experienced guys to the curb. Is it legal, yes. Does he get a big atta boy for his shooting prowess? No. If you are going to protect some by devising an aged base catagory shouldn't it work both ways?

 

 

I would Vote Yes.

 

KQ

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I would imagine it is not necessarily the age of a shooter, but the experience level of an older shooter. The argument being for example: an "older" shooter with many years of CAS experience who takes this experience down a category or two to compete against much younger and generally much more inexperienced shooters gaining an advantage over the newer shooters.

 

My guess.

 

I think you have it exactly right!

 

KQ

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Sixty year old half fast shooter looks at the shooter list and doen't like the look of things so he changes to Cowboy, sixty year old shooter beats 18year old who does not shoot that often but usually shoot the state shoot with his Dad. 18 year old does not place in the category that he belongs in because the 60 year can't take the heat in his own category. That's not cherry pickin???? Believe me this goes on a lot. And when it's time for me to move on to wragler you better believe I will be all in with bells on. If the term cherry picking offends maybe the shoe fits.

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I think you need to get out more. I have seen an older shooter from my region do this. He has quite a few years experience shooting and is a pretty great shooter but not good enough to compete in his age group. He "Cherry Picks" at state and regionals to compete against a group of younger and less experienced shooters. He does pretty well usually and kicks the younger and less experienced guys to the curb. Is it legal, yes. Does he get a big atta boy for his shooting prowess? No. I think it makes him look like a DB.

 

If you are going to protect some by devising an aged base catagory shouldn't it work both ways?

 

 

I would Vote Yes.

 

KQ

 

The premise is that one gets a bit slower with age...therefore, age categories.

 

Which is generally true for the vast majority. So now we are again looking for rules to address some very small population of the membership?

 

Grrrreat... <_<

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The premise is that one gets a bit slower with age...therefore, age categories.

 

Which is generally true for the vast majority. So now we are again looking for rules to address some very small population of the membership?

 

Grrrreat... <_<

 

 

Yes. :rolleyes:

 

KQ

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Hello,

 

Guess I'm in Deuce's corner. I think age-based categories are goofy without an upper limit. :P I have never "cherry picked." I always shoot my age, except once I shot LFC. The only time I changed at the last minute was after 49er was added to our state match at the match. I "jumped" from Traditional to my age category. (That was the year that we first implemented the 49er category.) Okay, that's me and I usually practice live-and-let-live as long as it is within the rules. It is currently within the rules to "cherry pick" age categories.

 

This time I feel differently. I hate to see jumping categories and beating younger shooters because you are not competitive in your age group.

 

As others have said, I will vote my club's wishes. However, I think they will disagree with me.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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I know I dont pay attention to changes as much as I should.

 

I havent been shooting for a while and only recently have been trying to get back into the game. I had my login erased here on the Wire (a couple of years ago) to prevent me from commenting on stuff like this (probably something I shouldnt be fooling with now) … but … that being said … and being re-registered … here goes …

 

It seemed to me that when Traditional and Modern disappeared … (Traditional being a category for anyone to shoot in using two hands) … that the replacement was Cowboy/Cowgirl. I can remember when I first started … thinking … hmmmmmmm what should I shoot today … Traditional or 49er … darn … flip a coin.

 

Unless I have missed something … Cowboy is not an aged based category … it is the default category … (not unlike the Open category that is being mentioned now … or Traditional that it replaced).

 

Anyone that is not a Buck/Junior is able to shoot in this category … right??!? (no Gunfighters of course)

 

At the same time Cowboy appeared … they created a new category … like 49er … but it was 36er … and since 36er sounded kinda dumb I guess that is why they decided to call it Wrangler. Of course … like 49er and Senior etc etc … Wrangler (unlike Cowboy) IS an aged based category.

 

Sooooo … if we are going to make Cowboy an aged based category for 18-35 year olds … I wonder if it would be OK to bring the open/default category back … and call it … uhhh … Traditional!!

 

I think by naming it Traditional … no one would be inclined to mistake it for an age based category … where nubie 18 year olds (who only come to a match once a year with their father) could be preyed upon only by people in their own age group (and not by the sneaky gamer 30+ second average stage sharks like me). (Wow … that sounds pretty cool when you put it that way!! ;>)

 

I am 63 and have been making it a point to shoot in the Cowboy category lately … (I was putting Traditional on the sheet and they just look at you like youre from another planet … sigh …) … We dont want no trouble buddy … just put down Cowboy or Wrangler or take a hike!! Etc etc etc …

 

I just started shooting again during the middle of September and now have about 4 matches under my belt this year. I recently took a first place in Cowboy at a local shoot with about 80 shooters but not because I was fast … but because I was the only one in the category. After reading this thread I feel like a thief now … I am so ashamed … :ph34r:

 

IMHO … they should rename Cowboy to Traditional and leave everything else alone!!

Pete

 

PS. Crap … I wanted to try duelist too … I guess NOW everyone will be staring at me and asking why I didnt sign up for Senior Duelist … sigh …

 

edit: Of course Cowboy is an age based category ... better terminology would have been to say it is not age restrictive ... if you are 18+ and not shooting Gunfighter you are good to go. (per the rules ... I think)...

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yes

 

What is the purpose of age based catagories if you don't have to follow them?

 

If your in the age for senior duelist then that should be the catagory you shoot in not duelist. If you want to beat the duelists then shoot faster and everyone will see it on the overall score.

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yes

 

What is the purpose of age based catagories if you don't have to follow them?

 

If your in the age for senior duelist then that should be the catagory you shoot in not duelist. If you want to beat the duelists then shoot faster and everyone will see it on the overall score.

 

Sorry ... I was trying to inject some humor in my post. I am not really ashamed. The rules say you must be 60+ to shoot Senior Duelist ... and Duelist says 18+ ... someone 60+ would qualify to shoot in either.

 

I didn't write the rules ... it is hard to play by SASS rules and someone else's personal interpretation at the same time.

 

An Open category is fine with me ... and perhaps it shouldn't be named Traditional since Wild Bunch uses that to define shooting with one hand ... sigh ...

 

Lets have some kind of rules ... lets play ...

 

Pete

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Sorry ... I was trying to inject some humor in my post. I am not really ashamed. The rules say you must be 60+ to shoot Senior Duelist ... and Duelist says 18+ ... someone 60+ would qualify to shoot in either.

 

I didn't write the rules ... it is hard to play by SASS rules and someone else's personal interpretation at the same time.

 

An Open category is fine with me ... and perhaps it shouldn't be named Traditional since Wild Bunch uses that to define shooting with one hand ... sigh ...

 

Lets have some kind of rules ... lets play ...

 

Pete

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I didn't read your post before I posted. I was posting based on my observations in matches and to no one specific on this thread... I just don't see the value of age based catagories if your not going to make people shoot in them that should be.

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yes

 

What is the purpose of age based catagories if you don't have to follow them?

 

If your in the age for senior duelist then that should be the catagory you shoot in not duelist. If you want to beat the duelists then shoot faster and everyone will see it on the overall score.

 

Again, the purpose for SASS AGE catagories was to give older folks a place to go to hide from younger folks that GENERALLY have been physical capabilities.

 

THAT was the purpose.

 

So now I'm 50 and I HAVE TO shoot in the 49er class?

 

THAT SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Geeezus...

 

I'd sure like to know where this thought originated from...who the mastermind was and what his/her motivations are/where.

 

Just outta curiosity, do those in charge of deciding on new rules and changes realize that it's OK to not make changes every year?

 

:wacko:

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I have seen new shooters, generally in the cowboy/cowgirl and wrangler/lady wrangler categories discouraged by being slaughtered in a big match by shooters who are certainly older (that NOT being the problem), but who have A LOT more shooting experience who shoot down an age category either "just because they can" or to be more competitive in a category that generally has more newer shooters to gain an advantage in a match. My concern is that this will turn away new shooters. The future of this game and SASS is to keep new shooters maintaining an interest in CAS and providing an atmosphere that is conducive to this, and this includes finding a way to have new shooters competing against like experience, more or less. Allowing older read more experienced shooters to shoot down in an age category is not exactly a great way to encourage repeat visits and new membership in SASS and attendance at the larger match levels.

 

I have actually heard a couple new young shooters say they will not be back for a particular match again as this "cherry picking" was indeed done. Is this how to encourage future participation in CAS?

 

This being said, for a monthly match it is not such a big deal as we all use monthlies as either practice for the larger matches or just for fun (hopefully both). For the larger matches where sometimes sizeable entry fees are paid, a shooter drives hundreds of miles and has a lot of time and money invested, etc., this is a real issue.

 

It is my opinion that age based categories be just that. Age based.

 

For me, a fairly new shooter, I enjoy shooting in my class (Wrangler) with fellas who are roughly my age. Some of these guys have been cowboy shooting for more years than I have and OK, I can live with that. It motivates me to become a better shooter. I practice more. This is exactly the same as when I was competing in track and field in high school in the field events. As a freshman I was throwing discus and putting the shot with guys my age and around my age, including many seniors. Talk about an age (read strength) advantage those seniors had over all us little freshman. That made me to want to become a much bigger, faster and better thrower. All us younger throwers knew this and accepted it. These extra years of throwing also translated to more reps, more meets, more experience competing overall and this was a decided advantage for the upper classmen. This is accepted though as normal within a closer range of ages. What though, if 25-30 year old Olympian caliber throwers had been allowed to compete in the same high school event? A total unfair experience advantage would have existed and I would bet a lot of younger throwers would have not even bothered to show up for the meet. High school is aged based. We got that. Age based seems to work in many other competitive venues as well.

 

I am afraid that this same issue can and does lead new/younger/inexperienced shooters to perhaps not find a home in the CAS community and this can and will lead to folks not wanting to continue their CAS experience. I would rather maintain an environment tuned for fun yet favorable to all levels of shooting ability AND age to keep this game growing as best as we all can to ensure the game's survival into the decades to come.

 

Dan

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That "cherry picking" crap is nonsense in the locations I usually shoot. At the upcoming Gunfight Behind the Jersey Lily, the Cowboy category will be populated by the likes of Lead Dispencer and Single Barrel. Just look at the results from the last EOT to see where those two finished. So where is the advantage for a 48-year old broken-down fat man like me if I decide to shoot Cowboy?

 

"Cherry picking".......male bovine by-product!!

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I have seen new shooters, generally in the cowboy/cowgirl and wrangler/lady wrangler categories discouraged by being slaughtered in a big match by shooters who are certainly older (that NOT being the problem), but who have A LOT more shooting experience who shoot down an age category either "just because they can" or to be more competitive in a category that generally has more newer shooters to gain an advantage in a match. My concern is that this will turn away new shooters. The future of this game and SASS is to keep new shooters maintaining an interest in CAS and providing an atmosphere that is conducive to this, and this includes finding a way to have new shooters competing against like experience, more or less. Allowing older read more experienced shooters to shoot down in an age category is not exactly a great way to encourage repeat visits and new membership in SASS and attendance at the larger match levels.

 

I have actually heard a couple new young shooters say they will not be back for a particular match again as this "cherry picking" was indeed done. Is this how to encourage future participation in CAS?

 

This being said, for a monthly match it is not such a big deal as we all use monthlies as either practice for the larger matches or just for fun (hopefully both). For the larger matches where sometimes sizeable entry fees are paid, a shooter drives hundreds of miles and has a lot of time and money invested, etc., this is a real issue.

 

It is my opinion that age based categories be just that. Age based.

 

For me, a fairly new shooter, I enjoy shooting in my class (Wrangler) with fellas who are roughly my age. Some of these guys have been cowboy shooting for more years than I have and OK, I can live with that. It motivates me to become a better shooter. I practice more. This is exactly the same as when I was competing in track and field in high school in the field events. As a freshman I was throwing discus and putting the shot with guys my age and around my age, including many seniors. Talk about an age (read strength) advantage those seniors had over all us little freshman. That made me to want to become a much bigger, faster and better thrower. All us younger throwers knew this and accepted it. These extra years of throwing also translated to more reps, more meets, more experience competing overall and this was a decided advantage for the upper classmen. This is accepted though as normal within a closer range of ages. What though, if 25-30 year old Olympian caliber throwers had been allowed to compete in the same high school event? A total unfair experience advantage would have existed and I would bet a lot of younger throwers would have not even bothered to show up for the meet. High school is aged based. We got that. Age based seems to work in many other competitive venues as well.

 

I am afraid that this same issue can and does lead new/younger/inexperienced shooters to perhaps not find a home in the CAS community and this can and will lead to folks not wanting to continue their CAS experience. I would rather maintain an environment tuned for fun yet favorable to all levels of shooting ability AND age to keep this game growing as best as we all can to ensure the game's survival into the decades to come.

 

Dan

 

I say yer way wrong.

 

Big matches...the toughest classes as far as depth goes are Wrangler and 49er. Cowboy may produce the most overall winners, but the depth of talent is in the Wrangler and 49er classes.

 

So now you've got the new shooters coming in at those age groups...now what!? Oh, I'm sorry that they are new and get their butts kicked....duh! They're NEW! You've got to pay some dues fer gawdz sake!

 

Perhaps you'll understand sometime that in CAS, there really is NO WHERE to HIDE at big matches.

 

This whole issue in my mind is bull. It's a continuation of trying to engineer success. Tell ya what, practice and practice and practice...make the sacrafices...pay yer dues...and yes, you'll eventually be successful.

 

So again, I say to he$$ with the powers that be tryin to put us into nice little boxes.

 

:wacko:

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That "cherry picking" crap is nonsense in the locations I usually shoot. At the upcoming Gunfight Behind the Jersey Lily, the Cowboy category will be populated by the likes of Lead Dispencer and Single Barrel. Just look at the results from the last EOT to see where those two finished. So where is the advantage for a 48-year old broken-down fat man like me if I decide to shoot Cowboy?

 

"Cherry picking".......male bovine by-product!!

 

+1----You got that right!!!!!!!!!

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That "cherry picking" crap is nonsense in the locations I usually shoot. At the upcoming Gunfight Behind the Jersey Lily, the Cowboy category will be populated by the likes of Lead Dispencer and Single Barrel. Just look at the results from the last EOT to see where those two finished. So where is the advantage for a 48-year old broken-down fat man like me if I decide to shoot Cowboy?

 

"Cherry picking".......male bovine by-product!!

 

Ha!

 

Yeah, and I choose to "Cherry Pick" at the Texas State by going against Texas Rick O'Shay, Waterloo and Capt. Sam Evens...wow, what a "Cherry Picker" I am...a real DUMB "Cherry Picker"!!!

 

:mellow:

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If "Cherry pickin" ain't happening, then it won't make a difference if we put a maximum age limit on the age based categories. If on the other hand it is, then we should put an age limit on the age based categories. Either way I say YES!!

 

Again, why have it?

 

What's the harm in allowing folks to drop down to another age category??

 

Sometimes it's fun to shoot head to head with the younger folks.

 

My take on it is that there are some younger folks that can't beat the older folks...and rather then simply working hard to become better, they want the Powers that be to protect them so that they can have a better chance at winning.

 

Okay...I can kinda understand that...but it's kinda sad.

 

:wacko:

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If "Cherry pickin" ain't happening, then it won't make a difference if we put a maximum age limit on the age based categories. If on the other hand it is, then we should put an age limit on the age based categories. Either way I say YES!!

Yes it will make a difference. It prevents a shooter from shooting a category they want to just because they pass some arbitrary age deadline. Why do we want to become the Age Police? If there is some youngster out there in the Cowboy category that can't stand being beaten by a 48-yr old broken down fat man, then maybe they aren't wired right for competitive shooting.

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Well never did like the 49r deal when it first came out .........but i could shoot in modern or traditional ...........which were taken away

 

So if they choose to put in open .......so i have a place to shoot .........then that would be cool and I could care less what they do with the others.

 

But till that happens ......I would just as soon be called a Cowboy.....its the little things.........that are some times more important than the big things

 

Like this couldn't have been figured out before it became an issue ..........amazing no one saw this comin when all the Cowboy, Wrangler , stuff was happenin

 

Just amazing!!!!!

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Don't get too worked up guys this one won't pass anyway. I am suprised by the amount of people that think it's cool for someone to scout out a weaker category for the sole purpose of getting a buckle or plaque. Also the instances that I have seen this the shooters do not win the class,but usually still buckle. Everyone I talk to in my neck of the woods really thinks it's a bs classless move. Not trying to change anyones mind here either. Just giving my opinion,I'll gladly talk to anyone face to face about this.

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And what's the problem with that, Ace? Kind of like roulette. Ya place your bet on a number. Sometimes you win sometimes.....you lose. The point is the SHOOTER has a choice. No one should be forced to shoot in a particular catagory due to age. If they want to shoot with the younger folks and take a spin on that wheel..... ;)

 

There is many cases ( I have seen) where there are some catagories at annuals and even state level shoots where there is a very shallow experinced shooter basis at that match. When the older cherry picker finds that out, they switch classes and tromps on the competion. No spin of the roulette wheel, more of a slam dunk with a baseball through a basketball hoop and the net is a 4ft. Kind of sad to see a supposed adult taking candy from a baby and glotting about it. ...Or at best, the cherry picker is running from another shooter in their age catagory by switching catagories at every match.

 

Think of it as more of protecting the inexperienced younger shooters from the old.... just like the rules protect the older shooters from the experienced younger shooters.

 

 

 

 

One cherry picker even gives advice to other shooters...." pick your catagory wisely if you want to win."

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One cherry picker even gives advice to other shooters...." pick your catagory wisely if you want to win."

Hey Pard......I've heard these words straight from the mouth of Wild Bunch Members.......Heard it every year at Mule Camp during the awards ceremony........

 

Stan - who still thinks that everything on the TG Agenda should receive a NO vote....except maybe number 4

 

 

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Hey Pard......I've heard these words straight from the mouth of Wild Bunch Members.......Heard it every year at Mule Camp during the awards ceremony........

 

Stan - who still thinks that everything on the TG Agenda should receive a NO vote....except maybe number 4

 

 

You heard it, do you like it? Cherry Pickin I mean?

 

Edit: To all and not necessariarly you SFRS, if you do not want to protect the young from unfair advatage of older shooters, then why do yo want protection from the younger shooters in your catagory? I wouldn't have a problem with opening up all catagories to all age groups.

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