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Agenda Item #2


PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L

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Well, this is a tough one. First I regularly get my clock cleaned by anyone that happens to pick up a gun at my local, and enjoy it to some degree. I know I watch the shooters in my category closer than others to learn from them. This year a Senior Wrangler helped me cut 25 seconds a match. But if the only reason to go down a class to get competition then "Open" or "Shootist" can give you a heck of a run of competition.

 

Personally I don't have a problem either way.

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no Phantom,not PC at all. The cowboy way where everyone gets a fair shake.I find it funny that alot of folks have been saying we dont cherry pick we move around to be with better shooters.All I am saying is if you are moving down to shoot with them what is the harm of them moving up to shoot with you?

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I was raised to protect the kids and protect and honor my elders.

 

Perhaps when the age based categories were put into place, the upper age brackets protected them from younger faster shooters. Today, I don't know that it is still the case, but none the less, I think that we should HONOR the older shooters by maintaining the minimum age for the older age brackets.

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To the OP: Provisionally NO.

 

Without some sort of skill based classification (it won't happen,ever) category segregation will always be contentious. This ain't t-ball, you might not win a trinket.

 

If it is cherry pickin' you want to fix do that at registration Apparently everyone "knows" what is going on. Stop it.

 

If it is age groups that you want to fix just don't give category awards to folks that move out (in either direction) of "their" age group.

 

The best fix I can see is an option to "shoot for age". pick one, don't expect a trinket if you move out of "your" group. Everybody that does not "shoot for age" goes into Open.

 

 

I may be off topic because there are at least three similar questions posed, each with dependencies that are giving me pause...

 

Olen

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To the OP: Provisionally NO.

 

Without some sort of skill based classification (it won't happen,ever) category segregation will always be contentious. This ain't t-ball, you might not win a trinket.

 

If it is cherry pickin' you want to fix do that at registration Apparently everyone "knows" what is going on. Stop it.

 

Presently, it is legal for an older shooter to move down in any age catagory. If (an they do) they (cherry picker) wait till the 23rd hour of the last day of registration and after they have canvas friends, neighbors whatever on who's coming, the MD must honor their appllication and/or change. Another one is for the CP to do an end around with someone in the registration for a change that isn't up to speed on the tactics and who it is. Apparently, a small percentage either knows about it or cares about it. Stop it? Not hardly with current rules,,, and most likely not worth it if rules were changed.. but here we go and it is up for vote.

 

If it is age groups that you want to fix just don't give category awards to folks that move out (in either direction) of "their" age group.

 

I don't understand where you are going here.

 

Don't give catagory awards to CP that move to a practical empty catagory? You would have to punish people like Grand Dame and Cattle Barrons too, not good.

 

The best fix I can see is an option to "shoot for age". pick one, don't expect a trinket if you move out of "your" group. Everybody that does not "shoot for age" goes into Open.

 

There is no official Open catagory

 

I may be off topic because there are at least three similar questions posed, each with dependencies that are giving me pause...

 

Olen

 

 

Darn few CP as far as percentile of total shooters go. But the few sure do pollute the water hole.

 

Limiting the moving down to just one age catagory would sure cut down alot of CPing.

 

Edit: I guess the organization putting on the shoot could refuse the application of the CP and say the match is full,,, sorry!! Chance of getting everyone in organization to do that is nill.... Besides, you would be stoopiing down to the CPers level and they will beat you every time with experience.

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Darn few CP as far as percentile of total shooters go. But the few sure do pollute the water hole.

 

Limiting the moving down to just one age catagory would sure cut down alot of CPing.

 

Edit: I guess the organization putting on the shoot could refuse the application of the CP and say the match is full,,, sorry!! Chance of getting everyone in organization to do that is nill.... Besides, you would be stoopiing down to the CPers level and they will beat you every time with experience.

 

The CPers I notice change their category after they show up at the match and check out the competition. "Oh I must have checked the wrong box on my application, that's not the category I signed up for".

 

I hope they don't vote!

 

Yes, it's a small percentage of shooters and they should be stopped at the registration desk when they ask for a change.

 

LL' :unsure:

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Darn few CP as far as percentile of total shooters go. But the few sure do pollute the water hole.

 

Limiting the moving down to just one age catagory would sure cut down alot of CPing.

 

Edit: I guess the organization putting on the shoot could refuse the application of the CP and say the match is full,,, sorry!! Chance of getting everyone in organization to do that is nill.... Besides, you would be stoopiing down to the CPers level and they will beat you every time with experience.

I look at the cherry picking complaint and wonder how many folks do this deliberately? Most posters here seem to believe it is a small number and that the people are well known. I am not sure it warrants any change in the way we are doing thing now, BUT, there are lots of younger folk that are really put out because some old guy can slip into Cowboy and win but that they (the youngsters) can't move up. I say let them both move any which way they want, just not for awards. No change in categories needed for this problem.

 

This is not about small cohorts of Grand Dames or Elder Statesmen that NEED to move because of numbers, that is something we do now without any fuss.

 

I know there is not an official Open category, but it is under discussion in conjunction with other changes in the "official categories".

 

Finally, I believe most of the cherry picking is a local match thing. If you look at the category list for Comin' at Cha, you have to wonder where the hell anybody could go and not get whupped like a rented mule.

 

Olen

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**snip**

 

If you look at the category list for Comin' at Cha, you have to wonder where the hell anybody could go and not get whupped like a rented mule.

 

Olen

 

Comin at Cha - 49er - 34. Wrangler - 25. Cowboy - 23

I'm shootin Cowboy. Am I cherry picking because I think I have a chance against Tater, TRO, Justin Parker, Cap'n Sam, etc etc??

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA :D :D :D :D

Like Olen says, I'm getting beat like a rented mule where ever I shoot, I'd just rather finish 21st or so out of 23 than 30th out of 34.

If you enforced the age brackets, I suspect you'd see that 49er cat swell up above 40, maybe higher, and the other two shrink to well under 20 each.

 

Edit - by the way, I always shoot Cowboy no matter what the match or who is going to be there.

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I look at the cherry picking complaint and wonder how many folks do this deliberately? Most posters here seem to believe it is a small number and that the people are well known. I am not sure it warrants any change in the way we are doing thing now, BUT, there are lots of younger folk that are really put out because some old guy can slip into Cowboy and win but that they (the youngsters) can't move up. I say let them both move any which way they want, just not for awards. No change in categories needed for this problem.

 

This is not about small cohorts of Grand Dames or Elder Statesmen that NEED to move because of numbers, that is something we do now without any fuss.

 

I know there is not an official Open category, but it is under discussion in conjunction with other changes in the "official categories".

 

Finally, I believe most of the cherry picking is a local match thing. If you look at the category list for Comin' at Cha, you have to wonder where the hell anybody could go and not get whupped like a rented mule.

 

Olen

 

I agree pretty much with your first paragraph, especiallly letting anyone shoot any catagory. But,,, the reason the CP jumps is to get the award. So in effect your proposal doesn't outlaw the jumping but rather removes the reward for doing such... Same thing as if the person stayed in their catagory and just looked down the score board to whomever they want to compare too. Our solutions pretty much mirror each others

 

Cherry pickers that I am aware of do their thing at annuals, some small state shoots and less poplulated regionals. Not at smaller monthies of which that is what I attend. Of course, when you get up to the 300,400,500 shooter events, all catagories are pretty well populated. Then they (some) will go into the one handed catagory where again their odds are better,, which is fine but I know why they did it since they seldom shoot one handed anywhere else,,,,,except to run since the other options are full of good shooters.

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I would simply recommend "leave it alone".....Match Director's put a cut off on switching categories.

 

KK

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Howdy All,

 

In case you haven't noticed, the Convention, and thus the TG Summit, is only 4 Weeks Away!

 

If you have not made the effort to do so, contact your TG and let them know your opinion on the five agenda items being voted on this year. All of the TG's I know vote the way thier club members want them to, regardless of their personal opinions on the items. Unfortunately many club members fail to let their TG's know what they want and then are unhappy with the results. Do your part and Vote!

 

This is a Non-Paid, Non-Political, Announcement,

 

Dogmeat Dad

 

P.S. A BIG THANK YOU TO ALL THE TG's FOR THEIR HARD WORK!

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No - currently it allows for the catagories to even out some. There is no "place to hide" anymore anyway so allow the flexibility.

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It amazes me how shooters can embrace the “anti” mentality!!!!

O my three bad men used guns to harm someone, so let’s take them away from the entire nation!!!

That’s a lot easier than actually confronting those three Bad Men!!!!

And Phantom is right, let’s put a bad name to it…like “assault rifle”.

Dang “Cherry Picker”.

How about the guy that shoots Cowboy all year long, and shoots FC at the State match.

Shouldn’t we do something about him…is he cherry picking or just trying something new!!

How about you clairvoyant guys, who seem to know what others are thinking, letting us normal folks in on your facts!!

And for you younger folks, that can’t move up and shoot with the old guys…ya can’t shoot with the girls ether!!!

What’s with that!! They can shoot with the guys when ever they want to.

Why can’t I shoot in Ladies Gunfighter…the scenery’s better!!

Reverse discrimination is no better than discrimination!!! Right!!

No one is stuck in one category!!

I shoot CC and GF, we let anybody play!!!

And if a 72 year old kicks my 62 year old butt, more power to him!!!

Iffin a youngster kicks my butt …fine, cause when I kick his butt…O The Glory!!!!!!!

I recon by now ya figured my vote ain’t NO but HELL NO!!!!!!!

 

BH :wacko:

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Drop all age based categories would get a yes vote from me, so does sex based categories. If a guy can step into a black powder based cat once a year and win it then the bp shooters need to practice their craft instead of complaining. As to the cherry picker, he has to live with the idea that he couldn't measure up to those shooters he dodged by skipping his preferred category, cowardliness is a bitter pill for a true competitor.

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Wouldn't it be kinda nice and interesting to know if an age based catagory winner was actually shooting in the age they belong in or a shooter that is older than the age catagory but has elected to drop down into it for their own personal and valid reasons. Yes, the older shooter qualifies now and for the forseeable future for the lower age catagory. So to do this, just have all shooters thats age is in that age group list their catagory as usual. For the older crowd that has elected or forced to drop down, just put a S(senior) in front of the catagory abreviation. LOL!!;; No,no, no.. I am not suggesting any new catagories... Honor system as far as verifying age. For example:: a 30 year old registers as a Cowboy (CB) and so they would be listed as a CB. A 36+ year can still register and shoot as a Cowboy, but their abreviation would be SCB (Senior Cowboy). Both would be competing for the CB award but then the people not at the awards or don't know all the shooters would be better informed . Would be entertaining . LOL:

 

I understand, this will never fly, but food for thought. :lol:

 

Blastmaster

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IMO there is waaaaaaaaaaay tooooooooo much emphasis on age and gender. It's about the guns (caliber, propellant, and technological advances over the years), the style in which they are shot, and the skill to use them.

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Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

There is no "place to hide" anymore anyway so allow the flexibility.

 

Some matches at some places having hiding spots...

 

After I had won my 4th or 5th state duelist title and finished like 4th overall, my wife ordered me one of them SASS winner buckles. It came and was shiney and cool and I put it on my shotgun belt only to arrive at my next match to see the same buckle on a shooter who had finished 126th overall and was the only shooter in Classic Cowboy... I went home and put my shiney buckle on the shelf cuz after all they will give them to anybody!!

 

I know a shooter who went to EOT and found a category where there were 9 shooters and when we got home he had the same buckle as I did :blink:

 

Remember 10 years ago or so when the 18 year olds were gonna over run the old timers ;)

 

Equal protection :huh:

 

Maybe all of this isn't really needed and we are doing because there is gonna be a convention/meeting and we just need to have something to vote on for the meetings sake B)

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Drop all age based categories would get a yes vote from me, so does sex based categories. If a guy can step into a black powder based cat once a year and win it then the bp shooters need to practice their craft instead of complaining. As to the cherry picker, he has to live with the idea that he couldn't measure up to those shooters he dodged by skipping his preferred category, cowardliness is a bitter pill for a true competitor.

 

No sir a cherry picker ain't gonna lose a wink's sleep over it.

 

I say we do away with ALL categories. That's how we do it at the Pampa Cowboy Shooters. Everyone shoots in the ONE and Only category. <Not a SASS match. Works well.

 

After all Second Place Overall is First Loser. All the way down to Last Overall is Last Loser. Many of us only care about where we finish overall. At the end of any match anywhere, the clamor is "who won overall?". We don't need no stinkin' categories!!

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at most major matches the same top guys stay the top 5 guys. If you lump 20+ more shooters into the category, you'll still have THE SAME 5 GUYS at the top. This change serves no useful purpose except to clog up the categories.

A BIg NO FOR ME.

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