BJT Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I thought I knew. I thought it was a 170 degree cone directed down range and centered on the shooter's muzzle. As long as the shooter maintained muzzle direction within the cone, he was compliant with the 170 degree safty rule. And then my world came apart. At EOT, range rule 12 says: "The 170 degree safety rule is to be observed at all times, including at the end of the stage when moving to the unloading table." EOT has unloading tables uprange from the firing line at right angles to the firing line facing into the berm. So can anyone explain the 170 degree safety rule as it fits this context? Thanks, BJT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Red OToole, #48939 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 By that definition, if I moved off the line with muzzles straight up, I would be in violation of the 170. I think someone doesn't understand how degrees work and muzzle direction safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The O'Meara Himself Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 When I leave the firing line and head for the unloading table, both pistols are holstered ans I'm carrying a rifle and shotgun, actions open, Evidently at EOT both pistols and the rifle would violate their 170 rule. Rule must be a mistake. The O'Meara himself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal A. Looyah #83098 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I've recently wanted to explain this on the line, to the TO. I've seen TO's and RO's demonstrate a 30 plus degree as the REQUIREMENT for safety. I want to carry a protractor, but I'd just look like a turd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I've alway thought the 170 was based on "the firing line" rather than on the gun muzzle. Muzzle had to stay within that 170 degree cone. The loading and unloading tables are a rule into themselves perhaps. Of course SASS says you can't be swept by a cleared and holstered firearm, so perhaps once pointed into the berm all bets are off. Dunno. Coffinmaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prof. Fuller Bullspit Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Obviously they want you to carry your long guns with the muzzles pointed conspicuously down range. I just hope nobody wants to walk along the firing line while you are doing so! I'd prefer it if they added, "When moving to the unloading table, please keep your muzzles pointed up or towards the berm." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Obviously they want you to carry your long guns with the muzzles pointed conspicuously down range. I just hope nobody wants to walk along the firing line while you are doing so! I'd prefer it if they added, "When moving to the unloading table, please keep your muzzles pointed up or towards the berm." Pretty much what I was thinking without seeing the stage, hard to guess what they were thinking when they wrote it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Must mean shooter keeps guns within 170 as he approaches unloading table sweeping last shooter and unloading table officer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Obviously they want you to carry your long guns with the muzzles pointed conspicuously down range. I just hope nobody wants to walk along the firing line while you are doing so! I'd prefer it if they added, "When moving to the unloading table, please keep your muzzles pointed up or towards the berm." +1 Professor! To summarize: 170 degree CONE applies from the position of the shooter at that exact time. If he is approaching the firing line, the cone is moving with him.. As she leaves the firing line, the cone goes with her. Many of the stages written have more than one firing position, thus more than one firing line. This is not bullseye shooting. Then there are the exceptions: * With straight-hang holsters, a holstered (or being holstered) revolver may violate the 170 degree cone to allow standard holstering movement with the muzzle straight down. Once holstered in any type of holster, the gun is exempt from the 170 rule. * Once guns are cleared at the unloading table, the guns are exempt from the 170 rule. This allows horizontal carry in gun carts and vertical carry to and from the carts. Sweeping folks in the uprange part of a berm is not permitted (at least by common firearms safety protocol), so muzzle direction should be carefully controlled. * At the loading and unloading tables, the cone relaxes because "into the berm" has been defined as a safe direction at Founders Ranch. * Once guns are fully encased in a sleeve or case, the 170 degree rule is relaxed, since guns must have gone through the unloading table. What I (and many others) have suggested many times is that "straight up" also be considered a safe direction for carry of any gun at all times (including a malfunctioned gun that is being taken to the loading table). As an RO and shooter, I DO NOT want to find that someone assisting uprange of the firing position is carrying a malfunctioning gun that is in compliance with the 170 cone, but which is pointing directly at me or the shooter because that helper did not have the common sense to use a "straight up" (safe) muzzle direction while they toted the gun to the unloading table! So, although range rule 12 SOUNDS like it has no exceptions, that is not the case. Including the allowed exceptions when that rule is printed would be the accurate way to print it, but, of course, that makes the books longer. Use common sense, and if you have little to none or run into another competitor with little to none, ask your posse marshal and up the chain. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stump Water Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I see you got a new spoon for your pot. Seriously though, this is a pet peeve of mine. Why can't the verbiage be added to the handbooks that muzzles up is safe? I find this objectionable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I've seen the word "cone" used a couple of times in this thread. Maybe we should invent some sort of "Cone of Safety". (Oooooo Philly, you're baaaaaaaad. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Slim, you are a bad, bad man. Don't get that started again. Round these parts it's common to hear the RO call out the time and instruct the shooter muzzles up, head to the unloading table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Okie, how bout this... RO I, Page 13, under Range Commands 4. “Muzzle up” Please move to the Unloading Table” should be stated at the end of a shooting sequence. Often the competitor stops thinking—after all, his shooting problem is finished! He simply needs a gentle reminder of what to do next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 What Garrison Joe said, this has been disscused before. They way that rule is written it can only apply to Loading/Unloading tables on the same line as the stage. Muzzles Up is the safe way to ensure safe muzzle direction when moving from Loading/Unloading tables that are up range. "Muzzle Up" is the command given by the RO at the end of a stage. Note in RO I page 14 it says "The muzzles of all long guns must be maintained in a safe direction (generally up and slightly down range), even when returning to the unloading table. (Generally "up" and slightly downrange), but not always......like when the unloading table is 30 feet up range pointing into a side brem. RO I page 10 E) These officers ensure safe muzzle direction is strictly observed and enforced when a competitor is at a Loading or Unloading Table, as well as during movement to and from the Loading or Unloading Table. RO I page 13 4. Muzzle up Please move to the Unloading Table should be stated at the end of a shooting sequence. Often the competitor stops thinkingafter all, his shooting problem is finished! He simply needs a gentle reminder of what to do next. RO I page 142. Long guns will have their actions open with chambers and magazines empty and muzzles pointed in a safe direction when being carried to and from the designated loading and unloading areas for each stage. Chambers and magazines must be empty and actions open for all firearms transported at a match. Muzzle direction is important between, before, and after shooting a stage. A muzzle must not be allowed to sweep the other participants between stages, or when moving the firearms from the gun cart to the loading tables. The muzzles of all long guns must be maintained in a safe direction (generally up and slightly down range), even when returning to the unloading table. A holstered revolver (loaded or empty) with the hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended case is considered safe and may not be interpreted as sweeping another shooter while safely secured in the holster. Failure to manage safe muzzle direction, even though no individual is swept, is grounds for Stage Disqualification, and for repeated offenses, Match Disqualification. Jefro Relax-Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Okie, how bout this... RO I, Page 13, under Range Commands 4. "Muzzle up" Please move to the Unloading Table" should be stated at the end of a shooting sequence. Often the competitor stops thinking—after all, his shooting problem is finished! He simply needs a gentle reminder of what to do next. Yep, there you go. The RO is allowed to say this, but the competitor is not allowed to comply with the command. The 170 is a rule that we EXPECT to have the shooter violate when they are moving between the tables and the line. Good luck,GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Stephen D Hill, SASS #56151 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I see you got a new spoon for your pot. Seriously though, this is a pet peeve of mine. Why can't the verbiage be added to the handbooks that muzzles up is safe? I find this objectionable. I too question this, but "some" pards carry their long guns muzzle up carrying them close to the end of the bbl end. Thus they could sweep themselves and or someone else! JMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Our home range has the same set up you describe, tables at right angles to the firing line, uprange, guns on tables face a side berm. Our protocol is handguns holstered (unless declared broke and handed off, then carried muzzle up) and long guns muzzle up when going from the line to the ULT. If yer holding yer SG by the barrel or forearm like most do, and if the hand gripping the barrel or forearm is more or less waist high, and the barrel is canted forward (as you are walking uprange), yer gonna be told about it. Bend yer elbow and get em muzzle up, and if yer small, old, weak, and can't handle that with two long guns, seek help. Guns are considered "loaded" until cleared, and NO, we don't let em point uprange, period. Note this does NOT strictly follow any "170" rule, because the "170" would be with relation to the firing line, and require the guns pointed back over yer shoulder when walking uprange to the ULT. That's not gonna work with two long guns for most of us, but we all can point em straight up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 RO I page 142. Long guns will have their actions open with chambers and magazines empty and muzzles pointed in a safe direction when being carried to and from the designated loading and unloading areas for each stage. Chambers and magazines must be empty and actions open for all firearms transported at a match. Muzzle direction is important between, before, and after shooting a stage. A muzzle must not be allowed to “sweep” the other participants between stages, or when moving the firearms from the gun cart to the loading tables. The muzzles of all long guns must be maintained in a safe direction (generally “up” and slightly down range), even when returning to the unloading table. A holstered revolver (loaded or empty) with the hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended case is considered safe and may not be interpreted as sweeping another shooter while safely secured in the holster. Failure to manage safe muzzle direction, even though no individual is swept, is grounds for Stage Disqualification, and for repeated offenses, Match Disqualification. Jefro Relax-Enjoy The highlighted verbiage is the problem. I have seen an RO try to call a penalty because the muzzles were not 'slightly downrange' -- what is slightly downrange anyway? Five degrees? Ten degrees? 0.000001 degrees? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I always thought of it as a 170 degree 'cone' going outward from when you approach the firing line that the muzzle of the guns must stay within... GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 The highlighted verbiage is the problem. I have seen an RO try to call a penalty because the muzzles were not 'slightly downrange' -- what is slightly downrange anyway? Five degrees? Ten degrees? 0.000001 degrees? Well....it's just that "(generally “up” and slightly down range), ". Generally up and slightly down range applies to ranges where this is the best way to mantain safe muzzle direction, usually ranges that share the firing line with the L/U tables. There are penalties for failure to mantain safe muzzle direction or sweeping someone....like from gun cart to loading table, then from end of stage and to the unloading table, and from unloading table to gun cart "generally up" RO I page 15 1. Every firearm must be treated with respect! Covering or sweeping an individual or group with the muzzle of an empty gun will result in a Stage Disqualification. Covering or sweeping an individual or group with the muzzle of a loaded gun will result in a Match Disqualification. Handling guns away from the firing line should be avoided but if necessary should be limited to safe areas. 2. Long guns will have their actions open with chambers and magazines empty and muzzles pointed in a safe direction when being carried to and from the designated loading and unloading areas for each stage. Chambers and magazines must be empty and actions open for all firearms transported at a match. Muzzle direction is important between, before, and after shooting a stage. A muzzle must not be allowed to “sweep” the other participants between stages, or when moving the firearms from the gun cart to the loading tables. The muzzles of all long guns must be maintained in a safe direction (generally “up” and slightly down range), even when returning to the unloading table. A holstered revolver (loaded or empty) with the hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended case is considered safe and may not be interpreted as sweeping another shooter while safely secured in the holster. Failure to manage safe muzzle direction, even though no individual is swept, is grounds for Stage Disqualification, and for repeated offenses, Match Disqualification. And then there are penalties for violating the 170 rule during the stage. IMHO there is an obvious difference between handling a long gun away from the line and handling a firearm during a stage. RO I page 19 (NOTE: The 170° safety rule means the muzzle of the firearm must always be straight down range +/- 85° in any direction. If a competitor “comes close” to breaking the 180° safety plane, the 170° safety rule has been violated and the competitor is at fault). Any gun that breaks the 170° safety rule will result in a Stage Disqualification. Jefro Relax-Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Its funny I was discussing this with a couple of pards last week after a female shooter was telling me that somebody had given her & another female shooter a hard time about how they were carrying long guns. according to rules it does not mention 170 generally “up” and The muzzles of all long guns must be maintained in a safe direction (slightly down range), even when returning to the unloading table. A holstered revolver (loaded or empty) with the hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended case is considered safe and may not be interpreted as sweeping another shooter while safely secured in the holster. Failure to manage safe muzzle direction, even though no individual is swept, is grounds for Stage Disqualification, and for repeated offenses, Match Disqualification At most ranges here in Florida I shoot at they are individual berms with loading/unloading tables behind firing line as soon as shooter is off firing folks go downrange to reset targets pick up brass so this does not really make sense.As some have said this makes sense for a common firing line situation. AO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red River Ray SASS#33254 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Ya gotta take tha rules or some ofv em with a grain of salt! Got my A$$ handed to me for going back up range at tha northeast reg several years back with tha muzzels up angled toward tha posse. Tha stage was 3 movements forward for tha different gunz. after I was done shooting my gunz went up an I headed back upstage. Here comes this feller (if I knew his name I'd say it) raisin cane that I was pointing my muzzels uprange! I had no idea WTH he wuz yammerin about, I looked back and everybody wuz resetting target etc. He informed me in a loud voice what I'd done wrong. I simply remarked KMA (keep me advised) there's as many behind me as there is in front ofv me. RRR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 I had no idea WTH he wuz yammerin about, I looked back and everybody wuz resetting target etc. He informed me in a loud voice what I'd done wrong. I simply remarked KMA (keep me advised) there's as many behind me as there is in front of me. RRR KMA Now that's a perfect answer, I'll save that one...KMA Jefro Relax-Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowdy Yates, SASS #141 Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 I thought I knew. I thought it was a 170 degree cone directed down range and centered on the shooter's muzzle. As long as the shooter maintained muzzle direction within the cone, he was compliant with the 170 degree safty rule. And then my world came apart. At EOT, range rule 12 says: "The 170 degree safety rule is to be observed at all times, including at the end of the stage when moving to the unloading table." EOT has unloading tables uprange from the firing line at right angles to the firing line facing into the berm. So can anyone explain the 170 degree safety rule as it fits this context? Thanks, BJT I'm sure you must have asked the MD at EoT. What did he say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJT Posted July 1, 2011 Author Share Posted July 1, 2011 I asked the PL, he said something along the lines of he and I know safety and how not to sweep people. So Rowdy, can you resolve the EOT rules with the 170 definition or are you just diverting attention from the issue? I'm sure you must have asked the MD at EoT. What did he say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Lee Bishop Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 This is one of many reasons I don’t do the larger shoots. My holsters are straight up and down for the most part and I’ve been told that when putting them into the holsters in the middle of the stage, “If this were a larger shoot, they’d ding you for breaking the 170” which is pretty much impossible for a holster that isn’t canted back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 This is one of many reasons I don’t do the larger shoots. My holsters are straight up and down for the most part and I’ve been told that when putting them into the holsters in the middle of the stage, “If this were a larger shoot, they’d ding you for breaking the 170” which is pretty much impossible for a holster that isn’t canted back. Whoever told you this does not know the basic rules: 21. Extreme care must be exercised when drawing a revolver from a cross-draw or shoulder holster or returning the revolver to leather. The user must “twist” their body, if necessary, to ensure the muzzle never breaks the 170-degree safety rule during the process. Failure to ensure the muzzle is always down range is grounds for an immediate stage disqualification. A second infraction during the same match is grounds for match disqualification. (Note: The 170-degree safety rule means the muzzle of the firearm must always be straight down range +/- 85 degrees in any direction. If a competitor “comes close” to breaking the 180-degree safety plane, the 170-degree safety rule has been violated, and the competitor is at fault.) It is also necessary to note that during the course of fire, the shooter must be given the ability to draw and holster revolvers from “straight hang” holsters and the ability to retrieve and return vertically staged double-barreled shotguns without penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowdy Yates, SASS #141 Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 I asked the PL, he said something along the lines of he and I know safety and how not to sweep people. So Rowdy, can you resolve the EOT rules with the 170 definition or are you just diverting attention from the issue? Near as I can tell the time to get this straight would have been at the match but I wasn't there and so haven't a clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 I learned a long, long time ago that no rule or law can be written that doesn't have exceptions, caveats, or clear instances of un-enforceability. It is also clear that in keeping with current rules, you can be in compliance with one rule and yet in violation with another. Such is this instance, enforcement is reliant on the uncommon good sense of the person carrying the firearm and the person(s) charged with ensuring compliance. Expectations that clear, written instructions to avoid such conflicts are not realistic. My hope is that this only clear example is sufficient to point out the truth of the above: "Thou shall not kill." Exceptions, caveats and instances of un-enforceability are abundant. The 170º rule is clearly only a guideline in order to keep you in compliance with the far more important rule of not sweeping anyone with either loaded or unloaded firearms. Do both carry penalties? Yes. Is it possible to be in compliance with both? Yes, probably 99.9% of the time. Is it possible to violate either in order to avoid violation of the other? Yes. I'd violate the 170º in heartbeat to avoid sweeping someone. How many times has a spotter or stage worked stepped in front of you as you turn to the unloading table in order to pick up brass, pull up KDs or other stage duties? Redundacy of rules are going to be common, yet these same redundancies keep us from harm in spite of our neglect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 The 170 is the line around the world known as the firing line minus 5 degrees on either side of the firing point, so no it is NOT centered on the muzzle. At the Pampa shoot which is not a SASS shoot we only have two rules, have fun and don't shoot nobody. Some grumps revert to the more natural muzzle down carry cause they can without some over ruley individual jumping on them. How did we ever get saddled with the unnatural muzzle up carry? It requires a modicum of arm strength that some folks just don't have an abundance of. Those hale and hearty do not seem to understand this. Worldwide and in most other disciplines muzzle down is at least accepted if not preferred. Think about it. The easiest and most natural way to carry a levergun is gripped by one hand around the receiver muzzle down. Quite natural and requires no he man arm or upper body strength. It just hangs there as it was designed to do quite naturally and easily. It's unnatural to carry a levergun muzzle up and requires arm and upper body strength some folks may not have an abundance of. The natural and world wide accepted way to carry a broke open double is cradled in the crook of the arm muzzle down. But not us. We have to unnaturally carry long guns muzzle up contrary to natural design and world wide accepted practice. Why do we seem to have to make things harder than they need to be? Does that word "generally" leave open a loophole to allow muzzle down carry? The ole grumps carrying muzzle down around these parts will also opine that they'd prefer to shoot their toe off as their head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 I've shot with folks who don't have the strength to carry both long guns muzzle up, someone helps them, or they make two trips, not a big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 This is one of many reasons I don’t do the larger shoots. My holsters are straight up and down for the most part and I’ve been told that when putting them into the holsters in the middle of the stage, “If this were a larger shoot, they’d ding you for breaking the 170” which is pretty much impossible for a holster that isn’t canted back. I think you need to read the rules yourself so you know you are likely correct holstering your straight hang holstered guns unless you break the 180 plane. This was all cleared up a couple of years ago when the cone of safety was defeated. If holsters are canted reward at bottom then guns have to never break the 170 once the gun clears the rim of the holster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 I've shot with folks who don't have the strength to carry both long guns muzzle up, someone helps them, or they make two trips, not a big deal. The point Grizz is us ole frail folks shouldn't HAVE to unnaturally carry muzzle up when it's just as safe or more so to carry muzzle down. Pride would preclude most from allowing anyone to help them get to the firing point from the LT. I will hang up my guns first if I get to the stage of decrepitness I can't drag meownself and two long guns over to the firing point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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