Question about fallout

[Red Logan #12252]

Will there be any concerns about fallout getting to the uper part of the west coast, some places say no, while others say maybe, what say all you folkx that know about this stuff.....

 

Meanwhile I'm gona get my old book of nostrodamas out...

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

Sure seems like some are hoping that happens. A little unlikely though as the reactors scrammed properly and, containment vessels contained. and the boron/seawater mix filled reactors correctly. That means when they restart (possibly years from now) the plants are gonna have to be rebuilt to ensure none of that is still inside the reactor vessel. The hydrogen gas explosions on TV are certainly a concern to the locals (radioactive contamination) but to get the levels of radiation to our west coast that some have predicted would probably take the real deal of a nuclear weapon going off not a gas explosion. I have heard that some of the fuel rods were exposed inside the reactor vessel (which is bad) but a lot will depend on the Japanese efforts to control the situation.

One thing to remember is the media likes to report worst case situations (better ratings for them). Many people have no idea about radiation and its effects so I expect the non nuclear crowd to jump on the bandwagon and milk the situation for all it is worth ie nuclear is always bad and we should all pursue tidal or wind generators for our electical needs. This of course ignores that the plants were 40 years old and still (mostly) worked right during a once in 150 year event. Overreaction is not gonna help.

 

Regards

 

 

Gateway Kid

 

Not an expert but Dad was a reactor supervisor for nearly 20 years and I helped build the real thing.

[Subdeacon Joe]

--yawn--

 

I haven't seen any worries about fallout anywhere in the media except for some of the professional fear-mongers. The containment vessels are doing their jobs. There has been no major release of radioactive material, and what little has been released (some steam) has not been highly radioactive.

 

 

Here is the full text of an article in the Los Angeles Times:

 

latimes.com

Japanese engineers work to contain nuclear reactor damage

They are pumping seawater laced with boron, to absorb radioactive emissions, in an attempt to cool two reactors and prevent a meltdown at the Fukushima No. 1 (Daiichi) plant.

 

By Thomas H. Maugh II, Los Angeles Times

 

March 14, 2011

 

 

Engineers are now pumping seawater laced with boron into two nuclear reactors at Japan's Fukushima No. 1 (Daiichi) power plant 150 miles north of Tokyo and are considering doing it at a third reactor in a last-ditch effort to stave off a meltdown that could release dangerous amounts of radioactivity into the environment. Hydrogen explosions have now occurred at two reactors at the facility. Here's a look at the engineers' efforts and what the potential consequences are, according to various experts.

 

Why do the reactors have to be cooled?

 

Nuclear reactors operate through the chain-reaction splitting, or fissioning, of uranium atoms. The process creates heat used to turn water into steam. When an earthquake occurs, a safety mechanism inserts control rods into the core of the reactor to halt the chain reaction. But the fuel rods continue to produce excess amounts of heat for several days and must be cooled. If they are not cooled, they could melt, with potentially disastrous consequences, including the release of massive amounts of radiation into the environment.

 

What went wrong?

 

The tsunami disrupted the electrical grid that supplied power to the pumps that circulated cooling water at 11 reactors shut down in the quake area. But at six of those reactors, water from the tsunami also damaged the diesel generators that supplied backup power. The facilities had to rely on batteries, which had a life of only several hours.

 

What caused the explosions?

 

The uranium pellets in the fuel rods are sheathed in zirconium cladding. It appears some of the rods may have been exposed to the air and overheated. When the heated rods came into contact again with water, the zirconium would have been oxidized, releasing hydrogen. According to the Union of Concerned Scientists, which promotes nuclear safety, the containment vessels that surround the reactors are designed to allow about 1% of the volume of gas within to escape per day. The hydrogen apparently accumulated in the outer buildings that surround the containment vessels. Then explosions were touched off by sparks. The blasts damaged the outer buildings and the pumping systems, but did not breach the reactor containment vessels.

 

Why wasn't seawater pumped into the containment vessels earlier?

 

Seawater is very corrosive, particularly at high temperatures, so pumping it into the vessels is an indication that the Tokyo Electric Power Co., which operates the Fukushima No. 1 (Daiichi) facility, has given up on saving the reactors. Normally, reactors use only water that is distilled and free of all contaminants.

 

Why have officials added boron?

 

Boron is very good at absorbing neutrons that are released during the fission of uranium. It is one of the primary components of the control rods that are used to shut the reactor down. Adding it to the seawater helps tamp down heat production. It also will control a nuclear reaction should any of the fuel rods melt and fall to the reactor floor.

 

Japanese authorities say there has been a partial meltdown. What does that mean?

 

That statement is based on the detection of extremely small quantities of the isotopes cesium-137 and iodine-131 in the environment near the plant. Those two elements are byproducts of uranium fission. During the normal operation of a reactor, cesium-137 and iodine-131 migrate to the gap between the fuel pellets and the zirconium cladding. The fact that some quantities escaped into the environment suggests the cladding heated up and cracked to some degree. That does not mean any fuel has melted, although it is possible that a small amount did. Barring a major catastrophe, no one will know whether fuel has melted until they can get into the containment vessel and examine it.

 

Could there be a nuclear explosion?

 

No. The worst that could happen if all cooling stopped is that the fuel would melt and fall to the floor of the containment vessel. The containment vessel is designed to hold the hot fuel in, but the type of nuclear reactor in danger at the Fukushima plant —General Electric Mark One boiling water reactors — has been widely reported to have a vulnerability in its design that would let the fuel burn through the floor of the vessel. If that happened, radiation could spread through the environment, but on a much more limited basis than happened at Chernobyl, where there was no containment vessel and the core contained graphite that burned, dispersing radioactivity widely. A massive plume of radioactive smoke and ash could spread from the site, exposing people for miles away, depending on the wind and weather.

 

Can the reactors be saved?

 

No one knows for sure. They are already 40 years old and near the end of their designed lifetime, so it seems unlikely. Experts say it is hard to predict how much damage will be done by the seawater because a reactor has never been exposed to it before. The other key questions are whether the reactor containment vessels have been or will be breached and whether the fuel has or will melt.

 

What's the best-case scenario for either reactor?

 

If the containment vessel is not breached and the fuel has not melted, then the fuel assembly could ultimately be replaced and the reactor restarted in a process analogous to refueling the reactor. But that might require complete replacement of all the plumbing in the reactor if pipes have been damaged by the seawater. In that case, it might be cheaper to start over. If the fuel has melted partially, or perhaps even completely, without damaging the containment vessel, the reactor would have to be decommissioned. Most likely, the company would keep pumping seawater through it for several years until it had cooled down sufficiently and many of the radioactive isotopes had decayed enough that engineers could go in and remove the fuel. That, in essence, is what happened in 1979 in the partial core meltdown at the Three Mile Island Generating Station in Pennsylvania. Workmen eventually dug out the partially melted fuel and buried it at a disposal site in Idaho. The empty containment vessel now stands next to functioning reactors at the site.

 

What's the worst-case scenario?

 

A breach in the containment vessel. If that happens, engineers would most likely have to entomb the reactor in concrete, as was done at Chernobyl, where a breach spread radioactive ash across most of Europe, except the Iberian peninsula.

 

thomas.maugh@latimes.com

 

Copyright © 2011, Los Angeles Times

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

--yawn--

 

I haven't seen any worries about fallout anywhere in the media except for some of the professional fear-mongers. The containment vessels are doing their jobs. There has been no major release of radioactive material, and what little has been released (some steam) has not been highly radioactive.

 

 

Here is the full text of an article in the Los Angeles Times:

 

Well I know I'M gonna lose a lot of sleep worrying about it. NOT!!!

 

I wouldn't lose a second more if I were in Japan.

[Utah Bob #35998]

It depends how bad things get. So far it's not a problem for the mainland US. If the reactors go Chernobyl (which is doubtful) there could possibly be some long term effects.

When I was on a nuc team in the army we did windborne radioactivity predictions based on weapons explosions which release a heckuva lot more bad stuff.

For there to be noticeable health effects in the NW from a nuclear incident across the pacific there would have to be a whopper of a problem. A real whopper.

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

It depends how bad things get. So far it's not a problem for the mainland US. If the reactors go Chernobyl (which is doubtful) there could possibly be some long term effects.

When I was on a nuc team in the army we did windborne radioactivity predictions based on weapons explosions which release a heckuva lot more bad stuff.

For there to be noticeable health effects in the NW from a nuclear incident across the pacific there would have to be a whopper of a problem. A real whopper.

 

+ a bunch

Something to remember is that you can detect very, very very small amounts of radioactivity from a long ways away with no discernable effects from those amounts.

Here in Western CO if your counter is sensitive enough you would see we are bombarded daily by background radiation coming from such hazardous sources as granite, limestone, the sun etc etc

doesn't mean you will die from radiation poisoning anytime soon, only that it is there.

 

Regards

 

 

Gateway Kid

[Utah Bob #35998]

the news media is big about screaming,"RADIATION LEVELS ARE 1000 TIMES NORMAL!!"

Remember that radiation is measured in such tiny amounts that even at many times "normal" it's still miniscule. You get more from X-rays, cell phones and your computer monitor.

[Charlie Harley, #14153]

Just based on some limited NBC (Nuke, Bio, Chem) training with Uncle Sam, the risks to the US and Canada are slim and none. It would take a whopper of a bomb to blow lots of nasty stuff high into the atmosphere to pose a risk to us from fallout. China did some of their bomb tests that way and we would pick up samples in the Midwest, but nothing worth noting.

 

Prayers up for the Japanese people.

[Subdeacon Joe]

the news media is big about screaming,"RADIATION LEVELS ARE 1000 TIMES NORMAL!!"

Remember that radiation is measured in such tiny amounts that even at many times "normal" it's still miniscule. You get more from X-rays, cell phones and your computer monitor.

 

Yep, you need something like a million times ( 1 x 10^6) "normal" exposure to get any effects like nausea, much less long term damage.

 

But it sounds scary, doesn't it? That's the nice thing about throwing out phrases with no reference.

[Red Logan #12252]

Now I feel safe...

[Utah Bob #35998]

Looks like a containment vessel has been breached now. A real mess.

[Sneaky Gun Runner SASS 79775]

REM = Roentgen Equivalent Man:

That amount of damage recieved equivalent to the deposition of 100 ergs of X or Gamma Radiation deposited into 1 Gram of soft body tissue.

 

How about that for a memory! I worked RADCON (Radiological Controls) for my entire Navy career. My job was to monitor the people and equipment that did maintenance on the Navy reactors. It really upsets me when these fear mongers start blowing these facts out onto a receptive audience that has absolutely no reference or education to base the numbers on. It took me months to learn just what it was that I was working with and what the consequences were for radiation leaks, the spills, and the possible results of said exposure.

 

The Navy and industry has (did have at least) a radiation limit (external exposure) of 3 REM a quarter / 5 REM a year.

 

With that said I worked in and on submarines my entire career. I spent a lot of time in the reactor compartment doing initial radiation surveys and spot surveys for workers. I cleaned out and decontaminated radioactive holding tanks, took and solidified reactor resin discharges, and once had the pleasure to be exposed to a primary system steam leak (ever had your nose backflushed repeatedly?).

 

After all that I walked away with less than 1.5 REM total occupational exposure.

 

Understand that internal exposure is definately a different kind of horse. I figure as long as you don't go licking the sand on 20 or 30 miles of coastline you'll be just fine.

 

/rant off

[Shooting Bull]

the news media is big about screaming,"RADIATION LEVELS ARE 1000 TIMES NORMAL!!"

Remember that radiation is measured in such tiny amounts that even at many times "normal" it's still miniscule. You get more from X-rays, cell phones and your computer monitor.

 

 

EXACTLY correct. On average, the normal human receives about 620 milliRem dose of radiation from natural and man-made sources. Notice that's MILLIRem, 1/1000 of a Rem. Up to about 25 Rem is undetectable in symptoms or blood tests.

[Guest Tennessee Stud, SASS# 43634 Life]

Meanwhile I'm gona get my old book of nostrodamas out...

 

 

Just don't get him mixed up with any books writ up by Nostril-Duma$$ (Rep. Henry Waxman, D CA).

 

ts

[Trigger Mike]

Amen to those from the military who studied fallout effects from weapons. I did as well and heartily agree with them. Maybe if you want to see a possible worst case look up the chernobyl accident and see how far the radiation went with that one. Folks in the US buying out the iodide pills because of Japan does not make sense. ALso remember the nuke test we did in the Pacific after WW2 and remember the 2 we dropped on Japan. There is no record I know of of anything reaching here.

 

Amen to the prayer for those folks in Japan.

[Foul Mouth Frank Shutz]

Considering the hundreds of above ground bomb test since 1945 haven't had an affect (mutants voting aside), I wouldn't worry too much about fallout from a Japanese reactor.

[Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381]

Considering the hundreds of above ground bomb test since 1945 haven't had an affect (mutants voting aside), I wouldn't worry too much about fallout from a Japanese reactor.

 

Have you ever seen Flint McCloud?

[Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172]

Well, I am quite worried about the possibility of contamination. I am just too dang old to bend over and put my head between my legs and kiss anything goodbye. What to do?

[Shooting Bull]

Considering the hundreds of above ground bomb test since 1945 haven't had an affect (mutants voting aside), I wouldn't worry too much about fallout from a Japanese reactor.

 

I currently work at the place where a lot of those tests happened. Ask Madd Mike if he thinks I'm a mutant.

[Red Logan #12252]

Looks like the only fallout waz in the stock market. sorry for the problems they have on the island

[Noz]

A perspective. The largest dose received by any individual at the horrible dreadful 3 Mile Island DISASTER was equivalent to the radiation received by getting on an airliner in New York and flying to San Fransisco.

 

Japan would have to be a large smoking hole for me to concern myself about radiation.

 

Yes, I was a nuclear weapons assembler. Never fogged the film.

[Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172]

A perspective. The largest dose received by any individual at the horrible dreadful 3 Mile Island DISASTER was equivalent to the radiation received by getting on an airliner in New York and flying to San Fransisco.

 

Japan would have to be a large smoking hole for me to concern myself about radiation.

 

Yes, I was a nuclear weapons assembler. Never fogged the film.

 

 

But, and there is always a but, do you glow in the dark, Noz. If you do, maybe we can do some night fishing?

[Sneaky Gun Runner SASS 79775]

We had a "what if" scenario we worked out with great enthusiasm.

 

We routinely handled waste that had some radioactivity to it. So, we wondered what would be the worst thing that could happen. This is what we came up with:

 

Ole Joe is rebagging a valve what was ground out and removed from the primary system due to it having a small leak. While handling the bag his glove catches a sharp corner and a small hole is formed. Some of the contaminated water left in the valve seeps in and wets the tip of his underliner cotton glove and deposits material under his fingernail. The whole body frisk done on Ole Joe is not properly done (lunch time!) and misses his radioactive fingertip. Ole Joe heads to the head for some bladder relief before lunch and while zipping up the radioactive material dislodges from under that fingernail onto Ole Joes privates. After washing his hands (which totally removes any and all contamination left under that fingernail) Ole Joe has a great lunch and takes off early for the house.

 

Sweet Sarrah, Ole Joes wife, is REALLY happy to see him when he gets home and proceeds to show Old Joe her affections toward him. During this time the little bit of remaining contamination that was on Ole Joes most private part takes the tadpole express to destinations better not discussed. This particular tadpole meets up with a certain egg and nature takes it's course resulting in Sweet Sarrah becoming pregnant with that little spot of contamination resting right beside the developing embryo for 9 full months.

 

Now, let's say that the radioactive material came from the valve seat. This is pretty much the worst case as the Iron 59 after exposure to the Neutrons in the reactor would then become Cobalt 60. Cobalt 60 has a half life of 5.9 years and is a very strong Gamma emitter. We also made the assumption that the particle would still be emitting less than 0.1 milli-rem as even a verry sorry job on a whole body scan would light up the AN/PDR 27 and would have gotten folks very excited. So, that baby is getting 0.24 Milli-rem exposure per day. Taking the longest gestation period in a human (274 days as per Wiki) this would reult in a total exposure of 66 milli-rems to Little Joe (the baby) before birth.

 

I figure the kid is fine.

 

As a note we came up with the following Rule to Live By: Good RADON tech's wash their hands BEFORE they use the bathroom.

[Foul Mouth Frank Shutz]

Have you ever seen Flint McCloud?

Is he the guy with six fingers on his left hand?

[Foul Mouth Frank Shutz]

I currently work at the place where a lot of those tests happened. Ask Madd Mike if he thinks I'm a mutant.

Mad Mike;

 

Do you think Philly Slim is a mutant? If so, does he have a competitive advantage because of it?

[Duffield, SASS #23454]

A perspective. The largest dose received by any individual at the horrible dreadful 3 Mile Island DISASTER was equivalent to the radiation received by getting on an airliner in New York and flying to San Fransisco.

 

Japan would have to be a large smoking hole for me to concern myself about radiation.

 

Yes, I was a nuclear weapons assembler. Never fogged the film.

 

When were you at Pantex?

My last job there was mantaining the radiation monitoring system. We were in a lot of places that had radiation sources, and as you say never fogged the film.

[Shooting Bull]

When were you at Pantex?

 

 

 

GAAAAAAK...You said the "P" word!!! I can't even turn around out here without running into a dozen of you ex-Pantexans

[Shooting Bull]

Mad Mike;

 

Do you think Philly Slim is a mutant? If so, does he have a competitive advantage because of it?

 

 

Transitions are faster than greased lightnin' when you're workin' with three arms.

[Church Key, SASS # 33713]

I worked for the US AEC from 1967-75 (when it then became ERDA and finally DOE). I remember stories about the 1950's Pacific tests when us, the Russians, the Brits, and the French would try to outdo each other by vaporizing islands. One of our tests was supposed to be five megatons; oops calculation error, it was actually 15 megatons. Had 200,000 tons of radioactive island dust in the atmosphere for a good while. Somehow, the human race made it through the times.

[Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172]

Ok, if I get radiated, will I have that "4 hour" problem you hear so much about?

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

Will there be any concerns about fallout getting to the uper part of the west coast, some places say no, while others say maybe, what say all you folkx that know about this stuff.....

 

Meanwhile I'm gona get my old book of nostrodamas out...

There's a computer projection of the plume in an article from the NY Times. Read the article and play the video clip. I've followed this concern closely since I'm a radiation protection professional with 35-years practice behind me and need the information in my work. (I don't normally mention my work on the Wire.) The President's statement on the low risk to US soil is right on. Our government is telling the truth. Don't concern yourself about this fallout. It will be detected because harmless amounts of radioactivity are easy to detect. I'm making one prediction: powdered milk may get in short supply. If radioactive iodine is detected in fresh milk and this information is made public, watch mothers quit buying fresh milk and switch to powdered milk which won't have traces of radioactive iodine. Their buying would quickly deplete the powdered milk supply.

 

Added info on March 18th: The Health Physics Society (a professional radiation protection organzation) is collecting credible information of a Facebook page. I refer you to that page.

[Foul Mouth Frank Shutz]

Transitions are faster than greased lightnin' when you're workin' with three arms.

Careful, this here is a family forum. And no bragging.

[Jack Houston # 35508]

Fallout????

 

I fell out of a Huey in '69, thank goodness it was only about 10 feet above a rice paddy

[Subdeacon Joe]

http://www.weather.com/outlook/videos/high-tech-look-at-where-radiation-may-go-20059

 

Doesn't say anything about levels, but seems that all the alarmists who were screaming about massive fallout in the US are talking about a fart in a tornado.

[Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381]

We're all gonna DIE! We're all gonna DIE!

 

Chicken Little