Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Why 20 ga Lever shotguns - but not pump?


Seminole Sam

Recommended Posts

Another one of the SASS rules I can't figure out why it exists.  You can use 20 ga double barrels, single barrels, lever action shotguns.  But minimum size for a pump gun is 16 ga.

 

I found this while trying to determine the smallest amount of lead I could use in a shotgun load and still knock the target down.  If  20 ga 7/8 ounce load will do it, my black powder 12 Ga with 90 grains of powder and 3/4 Oz of shot should be ok.  Thats still more lead than the 320 grain bullet I use in my 45-70.

 

I want to use as little lead as possible as that is by far the most expensive component, at least for me.  If I seriously go full tilt on this hobby I'll get a shot dripper and start making it.

 

I have not owned a 20 ga in about 30 years - but I'm curious why that rule is there.

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The rule exists because the gun does not.

 

The only pump shotgun legal for our game - the model 97 Winchester and its clones were never chambered (for sale) in 20ga.

Only 12 and 16.

 

I.e. the 20ga is not legal within a pump gun for our game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So the rule about no 20 ga pump exists because it is not possible to break it.  So why then no rule about 20 G lever guns that apparently also do not exist??

 

I'll try my 3/4 Oz BP 12 Ga loads weekend after next.  If it takes multiple hits to make the target go down fine, nobody else in this club uses black powder anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let's see.  You are trying to determine "the smallest amount of lead I could use in a shotgun load and still knock the target down."  And then, unless that is a typo, you are using 90 grains of BP.  That is at least twice the amount of powder needed for a CAS load.  A normal CAS load would be 40 to 45 grains of BP.  Make life easy.  Just use 7/8 oz of shot and 40 to 45 grains of BP and you should have no problem knocking down a normal CAS target.  90 grains is just going to blow a big hole in your pattern.

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

A normal CAS load would be 40 to 45 grains of BP.  Make life easy.  Just use 7/8 oz of shot and 40 to 45 grains of BP and you should have no problem knocking down a normal CAS target.  90 grains is just going to blow a big hole in your pattern.

 

I use a 7/8oz shot dipper full of 2F in my 12 gauge, and a 7/8oz shot dipper full of #8s. They pattern well, go about 800 fps, knock down targets, make plenty of smoke, and kill clays (when I can hit them). I shoot double triggers, so I have no idea if it's enough recoil to switch barrels on single trigger guns. 

 

I've never measured what a 7/8oz shot dipper of 2F comes out to, but some quick googling says it's about 60 grains (4.0cc). Less powder would probably pattern even tighter. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Whaaa????

 

Phantom

There is no 20 Ga pump shotgun that is the right type for this.  20 ga pump shotguns are specifically banned.  It is a rule you actually cannot break as no 20 ga pump is acceptable anyway.

 

With 20 GA lever actions they are not mentioned in the rules as not allowed because they do not exist at all in either an acceptable model or not.

 

If 7/8 Oz and 45 grains works I am happy with that, I just needed someone with experience to tell me that would work.  I am trying to save on lead, cost of powder is not an issue for me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Seminole Sam said:

There is no 20 Ga pump shotgun that is the right type for this.  20 ga pump shotguns are specifically banned.  It is a rule you actually cannot break as no 20 ga pump is acceptable anyway.

 

With 20 GA lever actions they are not mentioned in the rules as not allowed because they do not exist at all in either an acceptable model or not.

 

If 7/8 Oz and 45 grains works I am happy with that, I just needed someone with experience to tell me that would work.  I am trying to save on lead, cost of powder is not an issue for me.

I know the rules...your statement was tragically ambiguous. Hence my question.

 

Cheers!

 

Phantom

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Erasmus said:

I've never measured what a 7/8oz shot dipper of 2F comes out to, but some quick googling says it's about 60 grains (4.0cc). Less powder would probably pattern even tighter. 

Since it is still hot as hell in Phoenix and I am bored I just filled a 7/8 bushing with BP and weighed it.  The only 2F I had around was some old Elephant brand BP.  60 grains +/- was pretty darn close.

 

DSC_0001.thumb.jpeg.b83fe0fb9abc701f9c6f3d3e0770a3f1.jpeg

 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Seminole Sam said:

Another one of the SASS rules I can't figure out why it exists.  You can use 20 ga double barrels, single barrels, lever action shotguns.  But minimum size for a pump gun is 16 ga.

 

I found this while trying to determine the smallest amount of lead I could use in a shotgun load and still knock the target down.  If  20 ga 7/8 ounce load will do it, my black powder 12 Ga with 90 grains of powder and 3/4 Oz of shot should be ok.  Thats still more lead than the 320 grain bullet I use in my 45-70.

 

I want to use as little lead as possible as that is by far the most expensive component, at least for me.  If I seriously go full tilt on this hobby I'll get a shot dripper and start making it.

 

I have not owned a 20 ga in about 30 years - but I'm curious why that rule is there.

A couple alternatives to making shot with a dribbler:

  • buy it from Shooting Fox.  I think he makes his with a dribbler.
  • buy reclaimed shot.  There was a vendor selling it at Cal State a couple years ago.  You can also buy it in Phoenix when shooting EOT.

If shooting 3/4 oz loads bring a few heavier loads with you.  You might encounter knockdown targets that need an extra shove.  Ninety grains of BP is at least twice what you need to load.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Seminole Sam said:

I'll try my 3/4 Oz BP 12 Ga loads weekend after next.  If it takes multiple hits to make the target go down fine, nobody else in this club uses black powder anyway.

I've been shooting 12 ga. 3/4 oz loads for years in this sport. The distance that we shoot at with the shotgun is no problem for 3/4 oz. shot loads. I have never had a knockdown not go down that I hit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Seminole Sam said:

So the rule about no 20 ga pump exists because it is not possible to break it.  So why then no rule about 20 G lever guns that apparently also do not exist??

 

I'll try my 3/4 Oz BP 12 Ga loads weekend after next.  If it takes multiple hits to make the target go down fine, nobody else in this club uses black powder anyway.

it doesnt if you hit the target - ive loaded 3/4oz 12 ga since i started this 20 years ago , it has worked wonderfully , 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, watab kid said:

it doesnt if you hit the target - ive loaded 3/4oz 12 ga since i started this 20 years ago , it has worked wonderfully , 

This is the answer I was looking for.  Because of my lack of experience with this I had been thinking I would have to increase the powder quite a bit to make the 3/4 Oz load work.  Seems 55-60 grains is sufficient.  This is black powder, I have not loaded a smokeless shotgun round since 1980.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, High Spade Mikey Wilson said:

I've been shooting 12 ga. 3/4 oz loads for years in this sport. The distance that we shoot at with the shotgun is no problem for 3/4 oz. shot loads. I have never had a knockdown not go down that I hit.

With 55 grains of powder and 3/4 Oz of shot, I should be able to trim the shell down several times and still be able to get it in.  Probably burn a hole out the side of the case first with black powder being loaded in to plastic hulls.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is still too much powder for a 3/4 oz load.  Try patterning your loads before you make too many.  I doubt you will burn a hole through the side of the case.  However, you will find crimps (if you have any) getting too brittle after many reloads.  Some of us (me included) toss plastic hulls after a single firing with black powder.  I load abundant Gun Club hulls with black powder for local matches.  Smokeless shooters who do not reload keep me well-supplied with once-fired plastic hulls.  I'm shooting STS & Nitro hulls at Land Run next week.  They shuck better than Gun Clubs.  

12 minutes ago, Seminole Sam said:

With 55 grains of powder and 3/4 Oz of shot, I should be able to trim the shell down several times and still be able to get it in.  Probably burn a hole out the side of the case first with black powder being loaded in to plastic hulls.

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only 20 gauge lever shotgun I can think of is the Ithaca M66, and it's not really a lever action, per se - it's a single shot break open. :lol: It didn't come along til the 1960's either, so somebody might complain about that.

IthacaM66.jpg

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

However, you will find crimps (if you have any) getting too brittle after many reloads.  Some of us (me included) toss plastic hulls after a single firing with black powder.

 

OP you did not state what type of shotgun you are using - lever or double (pumps are not legal in BP categories).  If it is a double shooting a hull until it has had multiple trims is not a good plan.  Doubles cannot have ejectors so you must be able to shuck the empties.  BP makes the case mouth real crispy real fast.  I am like Edward.  Shoot um once and toss them.  Shotgun hulls are free or cheap and are EXPENDABLE.  

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

 

OP you did not state what type of shotgun you are using - lever or double (pumps are not legal in BP categories).  If it is a double shooting a hull until it has had multiple trims is not a good plan.  Doubles cannot have ejectors so you must be able to shuck the empties.  BP makes the case mouth real crispy real fast.  I am like Edward.  Shoot um once and toss them.  Shotgun hulls are free or cheap and are EXPENDABLE.  

Double barrel.   Easier to clean.

 

Plastic hulls & wads came a full 60 years after black powder went out and were never intended to coexist anyway, so I figure no matter what I do its wrong to some degree.  The two things that I most noticed at the first match I attended as a spectator was plastic shotgun hulls on the ground and the 33 times I was hit by lead fragments coming back from the targets, despite standing behind everyone else.  But never from the shotguns.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

if you are using fiber wads, better pattern those loads.

 

If the pattern looks like a doughnut you'll either have to decrease the powder charge, increase the lead payload or switch to plastic wads.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Seminole Sam said:

If 7/8 Oz and 45 grains works I am happy with that, I just needed someone with experience to tell me that would work.  I am trying to save on lead, cost of powder is not an issue for me.

I run 42gr. of FFg under 1oz. #8 shot. No doubt in my mind 3/4 oz over about 40gr would work well.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Seminole Sam said:

I was hit by lead fragments coming back from the targets, despite standing behind everyone else.  But never from the shotguns.

Eventually you will get hit by pellets.  Some clubs shoot at pitted shotgun targets that are long past due for scrapping.  Then there is the fellow who insists on shooting sporting clays ammo when light target loads are more than sufficient.  When spotting I just tip my head down when SG targets are engaged and let any pellets strike my hat.

 

When you get ready to clean your shotgun post a question on how get the black, plastic film out of the barrels that melted off the back of the plastic wads.  There are a few, easy methods to get this plastic out.

Edited by Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

When you get ready to clean your shotgun post a question on how get the black, plastic film out of the barrels that melted off the back of the plastic wads.  There are a few, easy methods to get this plastic out.

My fiber wads are from double thick cardboard that IT equipment came in, with one of those double thick cardboard wads dipped in lube.  My Nitro card, under & over shot cards are from Solo brand paper plates - seems to be the heaviest solid cardboard I can find.  I'm not going to use a plastic wad with Black Powder.  I have seen many videos from people who do but I'm giving that a pass.

 

Even though I now know the correct amount of Black Powder actually WILL fit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I use 1/2 inch vegetable fiber wads from Track of the Wolf. I don't know if your double thick IT Equipment cardboard will have enough cushion; but the only way to find out is to pattern and experiment. 

 

I lucked out, my 12 gauge square load in brass hulls patterns well with a single 1/2 inch fiber cushion wad, 1/8 inch nitro card, and a overshot card held in place by Elmer's. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Seminole Sam said:

This is the answer I was looking for.  Because of my lack of experience with this I had been thinking I would have to increase the powder quite a bit to make the 3/4 Oz load work.  Seems 55-60 grains is sufficient.  This is black powder, I have not loaded a smokeless shotgun round since 1980.

i load smokeless , i use between 12 and 13 grains of red dot or clays to give it about 700-800 fps max , i use reclaimed lead shot and i buy my wads through balistic products , i reload federal plastic hulls and use whatever primers i can find , im not gonna shoot trap with these loads and would never hunt with these but the bottom line is these are more than sufficient for our game , i loaded about 7k of them in my first year so ive been shooting them ever since , 

 

one thing i did learn early on that was disappointing was paper shells , with all that allurer of the old style case , even when brand new once fired [even had experimental federals from an employee] are great to load but storing is sketchy as they seem to take on moisture and swell a little - difficult to shuck from the double on the line , i dont use them anymore , just the smooth side federals ,  

 

when i worked up my loads i wanted least amount of powder and lest amount of lead in them to save on round cost - i started out shooting trap loads - even premium shells and soon realized i was wasting money , you can knock down most targets with the wad if properly placed , no0 need to beat yourself up with heavy loads 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

And the making of BP a difficult category to load for continues...

 

Phantom

I wonder if he wears wool underwear. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Seminole Sam said:

Plastic hulls & wads came a full 60 years after black powder went out and were never intended to coexist anyway, so I figure no matter what I do it's wrong to some degree. 

 

Some people enjoy not polluting our ranges (and hunting fields and marshes) with plastic wads, not begging for trap shooter's used hulls which turn into plastic trash after one firing, and not having to clean plastic snakes out of their guns. For those people brass hulls are easy to load, require minimal equipment, and require stocking one less type of primer (the common Magtech hulls use LPP).  

 

That is to say you don't have to "do it wrong to some degree"; but it is certainly an option for those who find more period correct loading methods objectionable for whatever reason. 

 

For some people there is simply no allure to avoiding plastic wads, not asking for other people's plastic trash, or learning how things may have been done in another time. 

Edited by Erasmus
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

ive always thought that shooting brass hulls would be fun , ive not yet found time to figure it all out , i still load trap loads as well so not really in tune with what might be required to change to them , i dont need another loader i already use four for what i load , 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, watab kid said:

ive always thought that shooting brass hulls would be fun , ive not yet found time to figure it all out , i still load trap loads as well so not really in tune with what might be required to change to them , i dont need another loader i already use four for what i load , 

 Loading brass is probably off topic for this thread but, it's easy, and doesn't require another loader. Though if you load for pistol or rifle that will make priming easier. 

 

For me, I deprime with a pin punch, I prime with an RCBS shell holder on my turret press. I toss in a scoop of FFg powder, press in a nitro card with a dowel, wipe a bit of lube on a cushion wad and press that in. Then a scoop of shot, press in an overshot card, run a bead of Elmer's School Glue around the card. Once they're dry I put them in boxes until my next shoot. 

 

My light load of black doesn't requiring resizing the hulls. The brass hulls are heavy enough to generally come out smoothly. 

 

A 1-1/4 oz (lead shot) scoop of bismuth 3s over a 1-1/4oz (shot) scoop of black FFg kills ducks well so long as you give them a bit more lead. 

 

It's not for everyone, but it's certainly not "difficult". 

 

I've also used 18.0 grains of Red Dot under 1-1/8oz shot. It chrono around 900 fps if I recall correctly. 

Edited by Erasmus
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, watab kid said:

ive always thought that shooting brass hulls would be fun , ive not yet found time to figure it all out , i still load trap loads as well so not really in tune with what might be required to change to them , i dont need another loader i already use four for what i load , 

I load trap loads too using the same press and settings I use for much lighter loads for CAS.  I just use different wads, a different charge bar, different powder and different powder bushings for the CAS loads.  I don't save much loading for clays over buying commercial rounds but was able to keep shooting when ammo disappeared for over a year.  However, my 7/8 oz loads are considerably less expensive than low noise low recoil AAs and always available unlike lnlr AAs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cleaning a double of BP with plastic wads is easier and faster than cleaning after smokeless.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.